The Hobbit and LotR Continuity Questions

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AlatarVinyamar

Lorien
I know there are some who feel that we should not try too hard for continuity, and that we should "Let The Hobbit be The Hobbit", but lets be honest, thats not gonna happen. So, watching FotR again on Saturday (With the RTE Concert Orchestra and Choir playing the score live) a couple of points occurred to me.


Saruman: Will we see any hint of his eventual fall from grace? It will be very jarring if the last time we saw him he was a kindly old wizard and suddenly he's whacking Gandalf round the place for no apparent reason. I suspect we will see some indication of the change that is to come. It should be subtle, like perhaps a desire to use the Palantir to spy on Dol Guldor, with Gandalf warning of the peril of using the stone. That sets up a payoff in FotR and even an explanation for Saruman's descent.

Galadriel: This is a really tricky one. For some reason PJ decided we needed extra tension in Lothlorien and gave us a creepy Galadriel who seemed almost malevolent. How will this tie in with the Galadriel of The Hobbit. Again, if we have a wise and wonderful Gladys in The Hobbit, it will make no sense at all when this scary psycho turns up in FotR. Perhaps here there is an opportunity to foreshadow once again? Show Galadriel as wise and powerful, yes, but ambitious, and hungry for knowledge and power. The sort of person who would be seduced by the power of the Ring. (And no, I'm not suggesting the Ring be mentioned, just that she would be sort of person to be tempted by a powerful weapon of that kind)


Thoughts?
 
as creepy. She only changed when the thought of what would happen if she took the ring; but then changed back to her elf self.

I don't think Gandalf knew Saruman had a Palantir.
 
I've commented before that the color of the grey gown we see in vblog 3 (this one) mimics the color of her "Nuclear Galadriel" costume in my mind. Personally, I think it would be a mistake to take her out of the characteristic white unless they intend for this to be some kind of battle/magic powers dress. I'll admit that color changes between costumes is pretty flimsy evidence (especially considering the change to Bilbo's costume colors) but it has me wondering if they won't give her a little bit of a part at Dol Guldur (for better or worse)

And personally, I prefer that we see none of Saruman's betrayal. The audience should learn of it when Gandalf does.
 
I think one of the things LotR failed at was establishing Saruman as good. We only have one scene of Saruman before he was evil and we don't really get to know him in that scene. The casting obviously doesn't help either. I hope Isengard features in The Hobbit so we get to see more of his garden before it's chopped down.
 
For some reason PJ decided we needed extra tension in Lothlorien and gave us a creepy Galadriel who seemed almost malevolent.
Thoughts?
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Funny, I always thought they nailed Galadriel in the movies. Eowyn on the other hand.....
 
Gimli referred to her as a witch on the way into Lothlorien. When the fellowship is brought before Galadriel and Celeborn, she gets in their heads, scaring Boromir so bad, he can't sleep, and she gets pretty weird with Frodo as she's talking to them all and Frodo hears her saying "one who has seen the Eye".

At the least, when first meeting her, I'd say she's kind of creepy.
 
The sort of person who would be seduced by the power of the Ring.
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I was under the impression that the Ring could tempt anyone, and being 'powerful' tended to make you more vulnerable. I interpreted 'nuclear Galadriel' to be the result of the Ring attempting to control her.

As for Saruman, they could show something like a scene involving him and a Palantiri.

Or they could show him as being a bit arrogant, which could be mistaken for confidence by other characters (and the audience). You could have a leader who's willing to take risks and make sacrifices to accomplish his goals, which some might admire, and then later, in LOTR, you find out just how far he's willing to go.
 
She is creepy, but she's supposed to be that way. Even in the book, I believe it's Boromir who mentions the tales of the Sorceress of the Golden Wood. Lothlorien is a place of peril to outsiders. It is utterly foreign and other-worldly, partly because of the Elves who live there, and of course because of the Galadriel's ring.

Galadriel herself is a Noldo who is incredibly wise, powerful, and ancient. She is naturally wary of the Ring of Power, and she knows (at least in the film, can't remember exactly in the book) that Frodo is bearing it into her realm and toward her. She also knows the struggles of each of the company, and spends time searching their thoughts and finding them out. She then turns around and tells Frodo this, hardly malevolent if you ask me.

Also, don't forget there is an extended version of the film that shows much more of Galadriel. She appears kind and gracious and giving, especially in the gift-giving scene. Then there's The Two Towers and The Return of the King where she sends aid to Helm's Deep and assists Frodo while he's in Shelob's Lair.

So overall, I honestly don't see what the problem with continuity is going to be. Galadriel should be wise, powerful, and dangerous in the Hobbit, just as she is in LOTR.
 
she must remain mysterious, seemingly dangerous, if only for continuity with the LOTR films. After passing "the test" in FotR, she is quite nice, giving, helpful, etc., but she frightens most of the fellowship before that. I suppose if you watch the trilogy first, they can do whatever they want with her. But with the framing device we have heard about, it seems PJ and company want you to be able to watch the two Hobbit movies first. If that is the case, Galadriel must remain a mystery, or all of Gimli and Boromir's fright would seem silly if we already know her to be someone warm, welcoming and friendly.

I have heard the arguments that you can't frame the Hobbit movies to fit the LOTR, but at the same time, you shouldn't ruin the LOTR by giving away too much information either. I can see possible problems with Galadriel, Saruman, Gollum, and to a lesser extent Sauron. Even Bilbo, "You haven't aged a day", hmmm, no, he's going to have aged quite a bit.
 
Remember that costumes are often darker on film sets to offset the bright lighting. Saruman's outfit in LoTR was a cream color, yet comes off as bright white in the movies.

> I've commented before that the color of the grey gown we see in vblog 3 (this one) mimics the color of her "Nuclear Galadriel" costume in my mind.
 
Even before his eventual downfall, he was not so much "kindly" as haughty and arrogant. He's the most powerful of the considerably powerful Istari, he knows it, and doesn't really think of anyone in Middle-earth as his equal...hence, this haughtiness and even ego are part of his fall from grace. I wouldn't make him overtly evil, but more the type who would be tempted by great power - perhaps have him peering into the Palantir, as you've mentioned, or perhaps have him appear "impressed" with the Necromancer's power during the White Council's confrontation at Dol Guldur. They might even include Saruman's line about the One having "slid down the river and into the sea", to hint that even during TH Saruman was contemplating getting his hands on the One Ring while outwardly denying its presence, but he hadn't considered allying himself with Sauron until much later.

As for Galadriel, I saw her as alien and unknowable, perhaps a tad over-the-top in her creepiness, but not malevolent. Her freak-out fest when she's offered the Ring is the power of the One effecting her and is beyond her control; notice she sees winded and relieved when it's over. I'd keep Galadriel pretty much the same, still a bit strange or alien, and remind viewers of her power so that it doesn't seem unbelievable when (if?) she throws down the walls of Dol Guldur.
 
Saruman
It's my belief that they'll have to make some sort of reference to his imminent fall from grace otherwise it'll make no sense in FotR when Gandalf turns up seeking his advice and he suggests joining with Sauron. Granted, his temptation by the dark powers can't take place out in the open for his fellow members of the White Council to see (otherwise Gandalf's line in FotR about seeing the Head of his Order who'll "know what to do" wouldn't make sense either) but they can reveal it to us, the audience. Maybe a sly glance at a palantir? A secret admiration for the awesome power wielded by the Necromancer? I'd like to see him lay his hand on a Seeing Stone (perhaps at the very end of the second film?) and begin his treachery. Now that would be a clilffhanger...

Galadriel
I've never had any problem whatsoever with PJ's portrayal of Galadriel so I hope they maintain her established persona. Any supposed "creepiness", to me, was just a means of conveying quite how staggeringly knowledgeable and powerful she is.
 
Galadriel isn't mentioned by name until after the Fellowship is already inside Lothlorien. So watching the films in order, with the Hobbit films first, will still leave in suspense who the "Elf-witch of terrible power" is that Gimli talks about. Of course, if the Hobbit films end up showing Galadriel in Lorien, that'll be another issue. But vlog 3 appeared to show the White Council meeting in Rivendell, so hopefully they don't even go to Lorien. As long as she's shown as powerful and dangerous (like I mentioned in my other post) there really shouldn't be any problem.
 
I think a slight bit of dramatic irony will do with Saruman. A slight acknowledgment to the audience, but not the other characters that something is not quite right with him by the end of the story.
 
It would make Gandalf look like a fool for trusting him in FotR. Furthermore, it will utterly spoil the audience's shock when Saruman turns out to be a traitor in FotR.

IMO it is essential that Saruman be seen as "good" in these movies, with no dropped hints to the contrary, although he could be somewhat autocratic and imperious. We don't have to like him, but I think we do have to trust him.

And no palantir, please! That, too, would spoil LotR too much!
 
Of course, if the Hobbit films end up showing Galadriel in Lorien, that'll be another issue. But vlog 3 appeared to show the White Council meeting in Rivendell, so hopefully they don't even go to Lorien. As long as she's shown as powerful and dangerous (like I mentioned in my other post) there really shouldn't be any problem.
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I believe that the White Council meeting in Rivendell may be a flashback to the Council of ninety years earlier, when Saruman first opposed Gandalf's plan to take action against the Necromancer.
 
Galadriel isn't mentioned by name until after the Fellowship is already inside Lothlorien.
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'Unknown', mysterious Elf who is a member of the White Council. Beautiful, commanding, powerful. even Saruman respectfully addresses her as 'My Lady' - that should do for 'The Hobbit'.
 
Lady Galadriel is the founder of the White Council. I find it hard to imagine the Council gathering (not just once, but probably twice including a flashback) without someone addressing her by name. Granted, her presence here will be a bit of a spoiler for The Lord of the Rings. I'm not sure that that can be helped at this point.
 
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