The Forbidden Pool -- Part 1, Pool Party!

[weaver]

The Forbidden Pool is one of the shortest chapters in LOTR – only 10 pages long – but its crammed full of discussion material.

Since this is summer in the RR for many, that makes it kind of hard to sustain a heavy academic discussion. I’ll therefore attempt to include a variety of questions to fit a variety of moods, and given that many of you will be in and out of the Forbidden Pool, I’ll skip around a lot so that you don’t have to follow the whole week’s discussion to stop by and say something profound or fun.

With that, I invite you to come on in, the water’s fine…

A. Picturing the Pool...

Here are three passages from this chapter describing the pool, and how the water gets into it:

At last they came out of the stony darkness and looked about. They were on a wide flat rock without rail or parapet. At their right, eastwards, the torrent fell, splashing over many terraces, and then, pouring down a steep race, it filled a smooth-hewn channel with a dark force of water flecked with foam, and curling and rushing almost at their feet it plunged sheer over the edge that yawned upon their left…
​

Far below them they saw the white waters pour into a foaming bowl, and then swirl darkly about a deep oval basin in the rocks, until they found their way out again through a narrow gate, and flowed away, fuming and chattering, into calmer and more level reaches. The moonlight still slanted down to the fall's foot and gleamed on the ripples of the basin.

Passing silently through, Frodo found himself on the top of the southern bank above the pool. It was now dark and the falls were pale and grey, reflecting only the lingering moonlight of the western sky.
​

1. Do you have some favorite lines from the passages above? What mood and impressions do Tolkien's descriptions create for you?

2. Do you have give you a clear picture of what this particular pool looks like? How would you describe the Forbidden Pool, in your own words?

B. Water, water, everywhere...

Pools” are not the only type of water feature in LOTR:

There are “moving” waters – the various rivers and streams that are crossed or traveled upon, the Ford of Bruinen where Frodo makes his stand, the sea and its sounds that sink deep into your heart, etc.

There are also “standing” waters, such as lakes, ponds and wells – the “Forbidden Pool” of this chapter, three in connection with Moria (the lake outside the gates, the well Pippin drops the stone into, and the Mirrormere that Gimli gazes into) and Galadriel’s well.

There are also “falling” waters, like the rain shower at Tom Bombadil’s place, the waterfall Curtain here at Henneth Annun, and the grey-rain curtain of Frodo’s dream and final sea passage.
​

3. How would you categorize or label the types of water features in LOTR? Is there one you particularly like or want to comment on? Did I miss any water associations?

4. As an aside, are you surprised that there are three water associations with Moria?

5. What do the different examples of “standing water” that I listed above have in common? How do they differ? Is “standing water” the right name for this type of water category in LOTR?

C. Water you mean?

Many books have been written on the symbolic aspects of water in religions, stories and myths. Here are some examples of what a water image or setting can represent:

• The source of life – there can be no life without water
• A symbol of destruction and death – sinking, submerging, drowning
• The unconscious, irrationality, and uncontrolled side of things – storms, mysterious depths, etc.
• Regeneration and renewal – water purifies and cleanses, washes away things, puts out fires, restores life
• Change and potential – water does not hold a constant form, it dissolves things, and is affected by land, air, and living creatures

6. From the list above, or words of your own choosing, what aspect of water do you most associate with the Forbidden Pool?

7. How well has Tolkien "dressed the set" for the drama that is to come?

8. Any other comments or insights to add on the Forbidden Pool as a water feature and setting in LOTR?

 

[batik]

1. Do you have some favorite lines from the passages above? What mood and impressions do Tolkien's descriptions create for you?
Not so much favorite lines but the abundance of words used to describe the water is interesting--boil, bubble, chattering, curling, curved, dived, fell, filled, flecked, flowed, foaming, fuming, plunged, pouring, rushing, splashing, and swirl.
Creates the impression of much movement in the dark but for some reason not threatening. But the potential is there.

2. Do you have give you a clear picture of what this particular pool looks like? How would you describe the Forbidden Pool, in your own words?
Difficult to form much of another picture after having seen some of this on film. Maybe larger and louder than the film version.

3. How would you categorize or label the types of water features in LOTR? Is there one you particularly like or want to comment on? Did I miss any water associations?
Other moving water-the Fords of Isen where Theodred fell and ??? where Merry and Pippin had the Ent draught; falling water-Falls of Rauros associated with Boromir's passing; possibly the rain at Helm's Deep. Changes occurred at each place.

4. As an aside, are you surprised that there are three water associations with Moria?
Yes will have to read that more closely.

5. What do the different examples of “standing water” that I listed above have in common? How do they differ? Is “standing water” the right name for this type of water category in LOTR?
Danger lurks beneath the surface of those standing waters. "Standing" being the right name-I don't know. Doesn't all water have the potential for movement? (NOT an earth science specialist!)

6. From the list above, or words of your own choosing, what aspect of water do you most associate with the Forbidden Pool?
May come back to this one. There's more to it than death and destruction.

7. How well has Tolkien "dressed the set" for the drama that is to come?
Back to the words he uses--one the one hand: bubble, chattering, curved, flowed, and splashing--and on the other: boil, fuming, dived, plunged, rushing. The first set could be associated with something as pleasant as having a picnic beside a by a brook (FUN); the other maybe running around on an active volcano (RISKY)?
Thinking about the tension involved (will someone let an arrow loose on Gollum? how will Gollum respond to Frodo?) along with Gollum's simple fishing/eating (tending to a need) Tolkien's use of words dresses this part of the set perfectly.

8. Any other comments or insights to add on the Forbidden Pool as a water feature and setting in LOTR?
It is presented as dangerous, off-limits, a physical threat whereas other sources of water are not presented as such in such strict terms.

 

[FarFromHome]

The Forbidden Pool is straight out of a fairytale - hidden, dangerous and forbidden. This chapter always seems quite different to me than the more realistic ones around it - Frodo is woken up from sleep and taken out into that magical place with its moonlit view. This is really another test for Frodo - another Galadriel's Mirror, almost. The prohibition, the "penalty of death", is another fairytale element. Frodo must offer his own life to save Gollum's, even though his first thought is to deny him and so be rid of him (the thought that Sam expresses even more forcefully). It may all have a perfectly rational explanation at one level, but the fairytale is never far below the surface. (Interesting too that the hobbits never manage to find this place again during their time in Ithilien - another hint that this is a magical place.)

 

[sador]

One thing I wanted to point out was the parallels between this pool and another example of 'standing water' - the Dead Marshes.
They seem parallel especially with respect to Gollum:

• In both cases he dives in to try and find his ruling passion (Sam guesses that in the Marshes, and Frodo tells Faramir about the passion here).
• Both places are dangerous - Gollum there, and Anborn here, both warn Frodo.
• Gollum sings of fish before entering the Marshes.
• Frodo's leadership here, and saving Gollum, compares unfavourably (in the eyes of both) with Gollum's saving Frodo.
• In both cases Gollum mutters curses against the White Face.
• Frodo repeats here a threat about using the precious - he didn't in the Marshes, but before the Morannon.
• Another comparison to the Dagorlad - Smeagol is overheard planning (rather impotently here) to kill the Hobbits. Unlike Sam, Frodo disregards what he hears - possibly because of his own feelings of guilt.

Not much, but a morsel.
And another intereting case of Standing Water is the pool in Isengard, after the Isen was diverted to flood it.

 

[FarFromHome]

is in what Frodo thinks to himself as he fights with the temptation to abandon Gollum to his fate:

Frodo shivered, listening with pity and disgust. He wished it would stop, and that he never need hear that voice again. Anborn was not far behind. He could creep back and ask him to get the huntsmen to shoot. They would probably get close enough, while Gollum was gorging and off his guard. Only one true shot, and Frodo would be rid of the miserable voice for ever. But no, Gollum had a claim on him now. The servant has a claim on the master for service, even service in fear. They would have foundered in the Dead Marshes but for Gollum.​

It's Gollum's service to Frodo in the Marshes that now binds Frodo to perform this service for Gollum at the Forbidden Pool. Frodo also remembers that Gandalf would not have wished Gollum to be left to die, but the first thought that moves him to overcome his temptation is the memory of the Dead Marshes.

 

[weaver]

...which fits very well with the scene. We really don't know what's going to happen, do we? Tolkien has us right where he wants us!

 

[dernwyn]

One would expect that such a rushing cataract would be quite noisy; how, then, is it possible for them to not have heard it, when they returned to Ithilien, and followed the noise to its source?

Unless Gondorian landscaping techniques are so advanced, that they planted some naturally sound-absorbing greenery to "hide" the water, both from sight and sound...but still, Gollum was able to find it!

Maybe it was, that Gollum was meant to find the Pool...

 

[Saelind]

How nice to be discussing a pool of water in the midst of a heat wave in these parts…

I like the description of the water rushing over the cliff into the pool and then back out again. It certainly gives a feeling of mystery but also maybe is a taste of what the world was like in the First Age during the Siege of Angband and the Long Peace.

I also like the recurring contrast between "good" water and water that has been contaminated. Good water seems to move more. Contaminated water is often shown as stagnant. The Pools of Ivrin in the COH is first shown as fresh and lively. After Morgoth reaches it, it becomes a mucky, frozen mire.

 

[Darkstone]

1. Do you have some favorite lines from the passages above?

Nope.


What mood and impressions do Tolkien’s descriptions create for you?

Ambiguity.


2. Do you have give you a clear picture of what this particular pool looks like?

The Wichita Falls of Wichita Falls

How would you describe the Forbidden Pool, in your own words?

Wet.


3. How would you categorize or label the types of water features in LOTR?

Moving waters are erosive, and tend to be full junk just under the surface flowing along with the current. They are dangerous and can sweep one away.

Standing waters are stagnant. It’s a good bet the fish are full of parasites. Always cook any fish caught in a stagnant pond very well.

Falling waters are aerated, and aeration purifies water.


Is there one you particularly like or want to comment on?

“People may come
People may go
Just as long as the waters slow
But watch out when you’re
Headed for the waterfall.”
-“Waterfall”, Melvoin, Coleman, and Bobby Z


Did I miss any water associations?

Liquid isn’t water’s only phase. There’s clouds and ice too.


4. As an aside, are you surprised that there are three water associations with Moria?

There’s also the Sirannon.


5. What do the different examples of “standing water” that I listed above have in common?

Moments of danger.


How do they differ?

Physical versus spiritual danger.


Is “standing water” the right name for this type of water category in LOTR?

I suppose, though one might argue “stagnant”.


6. From the list above, or words of your own choosing, what aspect of water do you most associate with the Forbidden Pool?

Unconscious.


7. How well has Tolkien “dressed the set” for the drama that is to come?

Okay.


8. Any other comments or insights to add on the Forbidden Pool as a water feature and setting in LOTR?

The image of oxygenated (pure) water falling into a standing (stagnant) pool is an interesting juxtaposition. It’s also interesting that the little stream that exits the Forbidden Pool eventually ends up at the Field of Cormallen, which is where the flow of the story also eventually takes Frodo and Sam (but not Gollum).

 

[weaver]

Hmm...now you have me wondering about moving vs. stagnant waters...

Stagnant water perhaps fits with the sense of trying to "stop time" -- to want to preserve things past their time, as the elves did? That kind of thing is going against the will of the Higher Powers, even if your intention is good.

Lorien, though, has no stain on it...but it's also a place "out of time" -- only by stepping outside of the natural order can an unchanging place be good, perhaps?

 

[weaver]

(One of these days I'll figure out the Quote feature...)

From your post...

The image of oxygenated (pure) water falling into a standing (stagnant) pool is an interesting juxtaposition. It’s also interesting that the little stream that exits the Forbidden Pool eventually ends up at the Field of Cormallen, which is where the flow of the story also eventually takes Frodo and Sam (but not Gollum).

So, symbolically, where all the characters end up starts here...interesting, thanks!