The Field of Cormallen II: "It's always night, or we wouldn't need light."

[Darkstone]

(Thelonious Monk)


But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.

Is this similar to The Voice of Saruman? “None were unmoved, and none rejected its pleas and commands without an effort of mind and will”. Further: “when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them”.

Is this long distance Power something all maiar have? Is this what Gandalf was using to call the Eagles?

Legolas noted that the Will speeding along the Uruk-Hai seemed to also negatively affect The Three Hunters. Would Sauron’s Will guiding his troops also demoralize the armies of the West?


Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness.

Is this the affect of Gandalf’s Will? Should Radagast have been at the Morannon with his Will?


'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom.'
And even as he spoke the earth rocked beneath their feet. Then rising swiftly up, far above the Towers of the Black Gate, high above the mountains, a vast soaring darkness sprang into the sky, flickering with fire. The earth groaned and quaked. The Towers of the Teeth swayed, tottered, and fell down; the mighty rampart crumbled; the Black Gate was hurled in ruin; and from far away, now dim, now growing, now mounting to the clouds, there came a drumming rumble, a roar, a long echoing roll of ruinous noise.

Comments? How does Gandalf know this is the hour of doom? Is he prophet or participant? If participant is this how Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur? Could this destructive power come from the Elven rings?


'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

The Death of Sauron. (How many times does this make?) Comments?


The Captains bowed their heads;

Why?


…and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

Comments? Why would some kill themselves?


But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West.

Why couldn’t they see that great majesty and glory before the battle? Would have saved a lot of time!


And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle.

What is Tolkien saying about Evil here? Can Evil truly be this courageous? If these Men are not really that Evil should Aragorn fight them? Is there another way?


Extra credit:

Another fantasy novel featuring the collapse of a tower is Thomas Pynchon’s “Against the Day” (2008). The real life 1902 collapse of the tower of the Campanile in Venice Italy is portrayed as caused by a battle between two airships.

New York Times reviewer Michiko Kakutani writes: "..because these people are so flimsily delineated, their efforts to connect feel merely sentimental and contrived."

Poet L. E. Sissman, from The New Yorker, defends Pynchon "Though his characters are not developed along conventional lines, they do, in their recalcitrant human oddity, live, and they do eventually touch the reader more than he at first thinks they will.”

Can this be said of Tolkien’s characterizations?


The title of “Against the Day" is from 2 Peter 3:7:

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Does this evoke the Battle of the Morannon?

 

[FarFromHome]

The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury ... Is this similar to The Voice of Saruman?

I suppose it's similar, in that volition is ascribed to everything. So the Wills of the powerful fill the land over which they have power.

Is this long distance Power something all maiar have? Is this what Gandalf was using to call the Eagles?

Gandalf has the power to spread hope: "Wherever he came men’s hearts would lift again..." (The Siege of Gondor).

But this, like Sauron's influence over his armies, or Saruman's influence over those who hear his voice, seems to be about influencing emotions rather than sending messages with actual content. If you imagine the Eagles as responding just to the general feeling "in the air" that's emanating from Gandalf, then maybe he did "call" for them that way. That's how it seems to Aragorn when the Rangers catch up with him, saying they received his summons:

"‘But I did not summon you,’ said Aragorn, ‘save only in wish. My thoughts have often turned to you, and seldom more than tonight; yet I have sent no word.'"
​

We will learn that Galadriel was behind that mysterious summons. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's behind the arrival of the Eagles too...

Would Sauron’s Will guiding his troops also demoralize the armies of the West?

For sure. After all, on the way to the Black Gate some of the soldiers are "unmanned" and have to go back, thanks to the horror that lies over the land.

Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness.
Is this the affect of Gandalf’s Will? Should Radagast have been at the Morannon with his Will?

Well, besides the fact that I don't think strength of Will follows any arithmetical progression, I get the impression that it's the arrival of the Eagles that most enheartens the Men of the West.

Comments? How does Gandalf know this is the hour of doom? Is he prophet or participant?

Since we hear later, IIRC, that he was the one who sent that urgent message to Frodo and Sam, he must sense that this is it - make-or-break time. Either the Ring is destroyed, or this is the end anyway. He's participant in that he set all these events in motion. But he has no real control now, it seems, over how they play out. He too has to trust to luck.

If participant is this how Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur? Could this destructive power come from the Elven rings?

I don't see it. It's the destruction of the One Ring that will destroy Barad-dur, not anything Gandalf does personally. The Elven rings seem to have the power only to nurture things, not destroy them. I'm afraid I don't recall where Galadriel is said to have destroyed Dol Guldur - is it in Unfinished Tales maybe? I imagine her using the power of Nature, in much the same way that the Ents destroy Orthanc, although maybe over a longer timeframe.

The Death of Sauron. (How many times does this make?) Comments?

Don't know how many times. But I suspect he, or someone just like him, will rise again as the Ages pass.

The Captains bowed their heads;
Why?

To mark the moment of doom, as the Ringbearer fulfills his Quest.

Comments? Why would some kill themselves?

The West would say that they were so brainwashed by Sauron that they couldn't imagine life after him - they would have expected to be tortured and slain by their enemies, just as they would have done to their enemies if they had won.

But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West.
Why couldn’t they see that great majesty and glory before the battle? Would have saved a lot of time!

Indeed. Once you realise you've backed the loser, it's too late for a lot of things. The Men of the West didn't look quite as majestic beforehand as they do now, though!

What is Tolkien saying about Evil here? Can Evil truly be this courageous? If these Men are not really that Evil should Aragorn fight them? Is there another way?

Evil with a capital 'E' has a life and will of its own in Tolkien's legendarium, I think. Men can be seduced by it, but they are not themselves Evil personified, as orcs seem to be. (The evil men who overrun the Shire are described as being part-orc, which puts them into a different category.) Men who are courageous, as here, seem to have the excuse that they were seduced or misled (they have been in "evil servitude" for a long time, we're told). Only a few of them stand and fight, but I suppose if they do want to fight, Aragorn has to fight back. As far as I recall, we never hear the end of that battle.

Poet L. E. Sissman, from The New Yorker, defends Pynchon "Though his characters are not developed along conventional lines, they do, in their recalcitrant human oddity, live, and they do eventually touch the reader more than he at first thinks they will.”
Can this be said of Tolkien’s characterizations?

Well I haven't read the Pynchon, but I would say that Tolkien's characters, although not developed along novelistic lines, are in fact very much along the lines of mythic or storytelling archetypes. So not so much "recalcitrant human oddity" as something more archetypal, more idealised and not really odd, except perhaps in relation to the expectations of the modern novel. What's odd, maybe, is that we can read real personalities into the stylised heroes - they may be archetypes on the surface, but there's a lot more going on underneath!

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Does this evoke the Battle of the Morannon?

Less the battle, and more the destruction of the Ring. It isn't called the Crack of Doom for nothing, you know! But since the two events are simultaneous and inextricably linked - and the "ungodly men" are here at the battle - it seems that yes, the biblical quote about the Last Judgement does evoke the Battle of the Morannon after all!

 

[dernwyn]

Galadriel's destruction of Dol Guldur is from Appendix B, in the paragraph following this date: "Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

Now, how she did this, was of course never revealed! I have assumed that there was still some "residual power" in her Ring which, combined with the loss of Sauron's will, enabled her to enact a destruction similar to that of Barad-dur's.

 

[dernwyn]

How does Gandalf know that this is the hour of Doom? Easy - he felt a short-circuiting in his own Ring! The destruction of the One meant the failing of all others.

"...a great wind took it": what is curious here is that Tolkien does not state from whence this wind came. Is it the West wind? All winds? A whirling wind, like a tornado whisking Sauron's shadow off to Kansas?

"The Captains bowed their heads": I doubt this is a moment of silence for Sauron; more likely they're showing their respect for what must be to them an act of Manwe.

"But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West." It all looks a bit different when your head honcho has literally bitten the dust, and a host of allies have gone berserk. And the sun is gleaming off your enemies' armor is not a very encouraging sight!

 

[FarFromHome]

I really must try to read the Appendices as often as I read the rest of the book - my excuse is that my only copy of LotR for many years was the one-volume tie-in to the Bakshi movie which conveniently omitted the Appendices, except for a few good bits like the story of Aragorn and Arwen!

Now that I know that the account of Galadriel's destruction of Dol Guldur is a brief "historical" account in the Appendices, I'm all the more inclined towards the idea I suggested earlier - that this might be less a destructive act and more a "reclamation of Nature" act similar to what the ents do to Orthanc. Since it's told so tersely, with no details and no time checks, I find it easy to imagine that the crumbling of the fortress and the subsequent cleansing of the forest wasn't achieved in some cataclysmic moment but was the result of natural forces - speeded up, no doubt, in "mortal" terms, just as we see with her box of earth in the Shire, only probably more so! (And also, I don't think we need to rule out the hard work of other people being involved, as Sam's was involved in healing the Shire. Galadriel may have "thrown down the walls" of Dol Guldur only in the same sense as Hadrian can be said to have built Hadrian's wall...)

[tongue]

 

[squire]

I have always read Galadriel's destruction of Dol Guldur as another of The Lord of the Rings' reprises of a theme from The Silmarillion. Compare Luthien's magical destruction of Sauron's tower on the isle of Tol-in-Gaurhoth:

Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moon light, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron. (Sil 19)
​

to the account in the LotR appendix:

They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. (LotR Appendix B; all bolds by squire.)
​

So I have never thought of Galadriel's Ring as being the agent here through some "residual power" as you put it, since the One was already destroyed. I do think it's arguable that Dol Guldur was more vulnerable to destruction after Sauron's defeat - and in any case was never in the same league as Barad-dur as far as magically-bound foundations go. A good thing it wasn't, because I don't see Galadriel as having the same inner power as Lúthien.

 

[CuriousG]

But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.

Is this similar to The Voice of Saruman? “None were unmoved, and none rejected its pleas and commands without an effort of mind and will”. Further: “when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them”.

Is this long distance Power something all maiar have? Is this what Gandalf was using to call the Eagles?

Legolas noted that the Will speeding along the Uruk-Hai seemed to also negatively affect The Three Hunters. Would Sauron’s Will guiding his troops also demoralize the armies of the West?

I think Saruman's Voice was unique to him in his ability to daunt and overpower other, lesser minds. I don't think Sauron's influence works the same way. I think it's more his nature and strong will that affect his minions. Possibly Gandalf was using a talent unique to him to summon the Eagles. This would be new; he depending on Radagast in the past to send the Eagle to Orthanc, but we know he's been enhanced in his second life. I like FFH's idea that Galadriel may have summoned the Eagles herself. If so, that meant she was sacrificing their aid in defending Lorien for the sake of victory far away for the Greater Good. Gotta admire that gal.

How did she lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur? We're never told. There are two elements of Galadriel that contradict what Elrond said about the Three, that they weren't made for battle but more ethereal, peaceful purposes. Yet Galadriel told Frodo that Lorien was protected "somehow" by Nenya, not by Elves singing in the trees (sarcasm on her part) or using bows and arrows. That power of hers didn't prevent the small invasion of the orcs of Moria, and it doesn't stop the armies of Dol Guldur from doing grievous harm to Lorien in 3 assaults, but it nevertheless prevents her land from being overwhelmed. (Credit for Celeborn is conspicuously not mentioned here.) And she does lay bare those pits. I think there's more battle power in the Three than we know. Elrond even used his Ring to summon the floods of Bruinen in what was battle-like and not a peaceful pursuit.

Yet Galadriel's also from the royal line of the Noldor, and the most virtuous of the three branches of Finwe's family tree. Finrod Felagund credibly fought Sauron with no Ring. I think Galadriel had other powers at her disposal to demolish Dol Guldur. It could have even been a struggle there between virtue and corruption that toppled Dol Guldur. Having rejected the One Ring after years of wanting it, and in a larger sense ending her revolt from the Valar, she would be enhanced in the virtue of Aman, a power in itself that could counter evil. When the Noldor first invaded Beleriand, they turned back Morgoth's forces (when Thingol's could not) rather easily because the light of Aman was still in their eyes (admittedly, they had better weapons and armor too). That light seemed to diminish with time, but maybe it just slumbered in Galadriel like hobbit courage, waiting for an opportunity to arise and beat the bad guys.

Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness.

Is this the affect of Gandalf’s Will? Should Radagast have been at the Morannon with his Will?

There's clearly A LOT that Radagast should have done but didn't. Don't get me started.

'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

The Death of Sauron. (How many times does this make?) Comments?

Well, it's not a trivial thing and bears repeating. Also, we've seen it from the hobbits' view, and they're far off. We need to see it from the Captains of the West's view too.

The Captains bowed their heads;

Why?

I've just never understood this, unless it is as dernwyn said an acknowledgement of divine salvation. Or feathery salvation.

…and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

Comments? Why would some kill themselves?

They were witless and purposeless.

But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West.

Why couldn’t they see that great majesty and glory before the battle? Would have saved a lot of time!

Before the birds and Sauron's fall, those Captains were badly outnumbered and fighting a losing battle on slag heaps with no realistic chance of survival. Losers.

And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle.

What is Tolkien saying about Evil here? Can Evil truly be this courageous? If these Men are not really that Evil should Aragorn fight them? Is there another way?

Tolkien seems to say that some were evil, others were just aggressive soldiers. I think Tolkien does allow Evil to be courageous at times. Those orcs almost always make the first charge in battles, knowing they will be cut down in many numbers even if they win. And here particularly with Men, I think Tolkien allows that they're not all evil, and they can possess noble traits like courage to make them stand and fight. It also seems that collectively, the men from south and east come from large, reasonably prosperous realms, given their gear. They are superior, for example, to the men from Lamedon: "a few grim hillmen without a captain." Whether Sauron is in the picture or not, this a now a fight between rival kingdoms seeking land and booty from each other. Hence they stand and fight for their own reasons.

 

[dormouse]

Why?

Several reasons, I think. First, it's the enormity of the moment. This is the eucatastrophe.... Ring gone, Sauron gone, winds of Manwe sweep him away and silence falls. Like George VI at the end of the Second World War, 'let us give thanks for a great deliverance' - deliverance, not victory. The Captains are acknowledging something they could not have achieved by themselves.

Second - I think there is an element of recognition for Sauron there - not for what he was, but for what he might have been. It reminds me of Frodo after Saruman's defeat - 'He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against'...

Third - relief, and a natural pause for breath. It's that head in hands moment - they went into this expecting to die, now they have to adjust to a completely new state of affairs before they can react to whatever comes next.

Just an idea (or two)

 

[sador]

I should probably be replying to dormouse now, rather than this Quixotic attempt at catching-up. I guess tomorrow I'll begin alternating between the two chapters. But I don't find time for one!


Is this similar to The Voice of Saruman? “None were unmoved, and none rejected its pleas and commands without an effort of mind and will”. Further: “when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them”.
Not really. In what way?

Is this long distance Power something all maiar have?
Perhaps with direct subordinates, long trained to bear the yoke.

Is this what Gandalf was using to call the Eagles?
Do the Eagles bear his yoke?

But on the other hand, he did speak to Frodo on Amon Hen. Hmmm.

Legolas noted that the Will speeding along the Uruk-Hai seemed to also negatively affect The Three Hunters. Would Sauron’s Will guiding his troops also demoralize the armies of the West?
I'd rather compare it to the great force beating against Frodo when he sees the Witch-king set forth from Minas Morgul.

Is this the affect of Gandalf’s Will?
Like lawyers love to say: "Where there's a Will, there's a way".
And the slave-driving Uruk two chapters ago effectively said: "I wield the whip; you'ld better write your will".

Should Radagast have been at the Morannon with his Will?
For the benefit of CuriousG I'll point out that Rhosgobel is on the way from Lorien to Dol Guldur. I'm sure his hands were full.
And yet he could spare the Eagles to succor his rash colleague!

How does Gandalf know this is the hour of doom?
Dernwyn's suggestion sounds just right.

Is he prophet or participant?
The two are not mutually exclusive.

If participant is this how Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur?
No. I don't think DolGuldur collapsed all in itself.

(Maybe she went nuclear)

Could this destructive power come from the Elven rings?
It's the power of Light.
After she rejected the One Ring, and gave Frodo the light of Earendil - she was restored to Grace, and could use just for once Varda's own purifying power.

The Death of Sauron. (How many times does this make?) Comments?
Jackson just loves the concept of dying and resurrection, doesn't he?

The Captains bowed their heads;
Why?
It is a solemn moment. I'm surprised they didn't take of their helmets, like in a Viking_funeral.

Comments?
You seem to be in a good mood - you've let that "behold!" pass without comment!

Why would some kill themselves?
Saves the good folk the troubvle of dirtying their hands, as well as the tedious job of dispatching them manually.

Why couldn’t they see that great majesty and glory before the battle? Would have saved a lot of time!

He that seeth through Morgoth's eyes, willing or unwilling, seeth all things crooked.

- Melian to Hurin, The Ruin of Doriath.

What is Tolkien saying about Evil here? Can Evil truly be this courageous?
Yes.

If these Men are not really that Evil should Aragorn fight them? Is there another way?
He could apologise to them and pay idemnity for their long unnecessary trip.

Poet L. E. Sissman, from The New Yorker, defends Pynchon "Though his characters are not developed along conventional lines, they do, in their recalcitrant human oddity, live, and they do eventually touch the reader more than he at first thinks they will.”

Can this be said of Tolkien’s characterizations?
They are not that odd. Try Dickens, opr even Dostoevsky.

Does this evoke the Battle of the Morannon?
No. The War of Wrath.

 

[CuriousG]

Should Radagast have been at the Morannon with his Will?
For the benefit of CuriousG I'll point out that Rhosgobel is on the way from Lorien to Dol Guldur. I'm sure his hands were full.
And yet he could spare the Eagles to succor his rash colleague!

After the Council of Elrond, messengers and searchers were sent everywhere. They came to Rhosgobel, but Radagast wasn't there. That's all we're told. But wherever he went, he never got involved in any of the coming events, or sent messages saying what he was up to, or that he'd like to help, or anything. He knew from Saruman that the Nine were abroad, and that scared him silly, so he knew Sauron was up to something. Either he disappeared because he was killed/captured, or because he went into hiding--those are the two conclusions I come to given our scant information. So, was he even at Rhosgobel when Sauron's forces went from Dol Guldur to Lorien? Or if he was, did he run away and hide?

He doesn't show up anytime later, such as when Elrond et al met at the Grey Havens with Gandalf to go to Valinor. One could say that was just the Ring-bearers leaving, except they took a lot of non-ring-bearing people with them. Nor did Radagast turn up in Dunland when Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Celeborn were having their nightly fireside telepathic talks. It seems he should have been there.

Though I'll admit it could have been he who sent the Eagles. If his animal friends were spying and reporting from Ithilien and saw Aragorn's army headed toward the Morannon, he might have figured they'd need some Eagles as backup if there were no Entwives with umbrellas on hand.