So, which is more "Art"--film or literature?

Sunflower

Valinor
This is inspired by thoughts of where LOTR (the films) stand in the popular Pantheon. Are they fantasy? Historical epic? Some weird mixture of both? I have the feeling that 5 yrs on, people still do not know what to make of them, Oscars and all. That PJ produced something as much of a grand, hybrid, unquantifiable, genre-spanning epic as Tolkien did. And that decades hence, they will remain as strange and solitary, in a sense.
Some have suggested that b/c the films are based on a beloved 50+ yr old work of the modern literary canon, they are to be taken as "above", say, great origional works of modern cinema. (I am not reacting to the Star Wars discussion BTW, though I think of it. It actually reminded me of a few articles I have read, about the status of modern film in general.)

There still seems to be a popular perception, among literary critics and some others, that movies (or "cinema" if they are polite) is less of an art form, or of less importance, than literature, perhaps b/c it is "simplistic", in that it "spells out" everything for the viewer, as contrasted to literature, where the reader must work to conjure up the world the author paints on the page. As pop and rock music is to the world of opera and jazz, so film is to older, more "powerful and enduring" forms of storytelling. Like books. Moviegoers, it seems, can never shake the stigma of being "consumers of popular culture." While readers, it is assumed, are participants in something more lofty and enduring. Yet, to me they are one and the same; in a world where books assume less and less importance, because of our fast-paced, globalized world (and perhaps, ironically, the Internet)

The modern American public almost expects these days for good new books to be given the Hollywood treatment. Many times, given the corporate stranglehold on the reins of creativity and sponaneity, it seems a bad thing for a book to be adapted into a film. It is not that there is a dearth of good artists out there; it is that the channels of distribution are slowly being strangled, cutting out any possible re-emergence of anything resembling an American "cinema" (a work of genius, such as Paul Thomas Anderson's "There Will Be Blood", is all the more mournful from merging from a solitary cultural vacuum. It as a film may reflect the current darkness and introspection of the Age; but there is no thriving hothouse of an American cinema "scene;, such as the American Zoetrope community of the 1970-s''or the :new Mexican Cinema" of now. There is no American cinematic "scene" and the film world suffers for this. ) and it might be better in many cases for books to remain unsung and unseen in such an environment, as long as they retain their quality as books. Better to remain unsung these days, , if you remain untarnished. (Let's hope that in rare cases, a miracle may occur, as in a great adaptation of Cormac McCarthy's "The Road.")

But in a world where reading is dying, I believe that the traditional "lowbrow/highbrow" distinctions between Literature and Cinema are dying, for in this modern age, one cannot survive without the toher, and in many genres, some may be in danger of passing away...in America that is. If Mozart were alive today, IMO, he'd be composing for film, for that would be where it's at; but would we denigrate him for it, as opposed to someone who composed for the concert hall? It's the quality that counts. Yet, the method of distribution ghettoizes one, and elevates the other. It's hogwash to me.
 
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Stupid time-out...:)

I was going to add--

If we sit in a darkened theater, sharing in a transcendant moment of laughter or tears, or in a moment of tension or suspense, doesn't the film become the proverbial flickering campfire around which we all communally sit? If so, it seems to take us back to a primitive "oral" storytelling tradition that pre-dates books. But in Western culture, we hold books in more esteem, supposedly b/c they are more "universal" and there is the strong cultural tradition of them liberated us from theMedivial forces of ignorance and superstition.

So, who is right? And can the literary snobs and the defenders of "the culture of the plebs" ever be at peace. And is there hope for Hollywood?

*Phew* How's that for a heavy question. [sly] I guess it's the unusually cold spring weather that's bringing this out...that and the rain. I think I know why the Russians are os philosophical. Must be the doggoned weather....
 
But in a world where reading is dying, I believe that the traditional "lowbrow/highbrow" distinctions between Literature and Cinema are dying, for in this modern age, one cannot survive without the toher, and in many genres, some may be in danger of passing away...in America that is. If Mozart were alive today, IMO, he'd be composing for film, for that would be where it's at; but would we denigrate him for it, as opposed to someone who composed for the concert hall? It's the quality that counts. Yet, the method of distribution ghettoizes one, and elevates the other. It's hogwash to me.

I would probably argue that there are numerous films that could ONLY tell their stories via that format.

Also, I like to use this example: at one time, "real writers" only wrote by hand, and then one day, the typewriter was invented. Then "real writers" only used a typewriter, and now you'll find the vast majority of them using a computer. The art still comes through, no matter the medium, people have ultimately found.
 
One of which many things could be said. Almost too many, so I'll have to concentrate in several points.

Which one is more art: painting or sculpture? It is weird to have to choose between two things of that kind. In essence, they are different manifestations of something . Forget the universal definition of art as a manifestation of people's emotions, let us leave it at manifestations.

That being said, I do agree with you in that movies aren't accepted as true forms of art, safe for those no one watches, which are shown in hidden cinema houses which only few people visit.

But I have to revisit the snobbishness of artistic conventions I mentioned in another thread, when talking about whether Tolkien himself was a professional or an amateur. Who defines what art is? Critics? Do we have to aim at creating art, or should we prefer authentic manifestations?

If you write a sonnet, you'll end up sacrificing content in favour of metric and mathematical measurements of what canon tells us is a sonnet. Why not just write free lance poetry? Maybe it's more authentic.

Is J.K. Rowling a better writer than Doris Lessing? (the most recent Literature Nobel Prize winner) or is it the other way around? On what basis?

I guess I agree with Guillermo Del Toro, when he says one has to stay true to his own beliefs when creating something. Perhaps there are people who are consciously trying to create art, and to pleasure the critics. I believe that is worthless.

If you create something because you want to and it is accepted no matter by whom, it is worthy. Aren't the millions of people who bought Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings ans the millions of people who saw Titanic also critics? They read or go to the movies with some kind of standards in their minds, and judge against those. Who's to say those aren't the right standards!

So, to answer your question according to "professional critics", movies are less of an art than literature. According to millions of people, it could be the other way around. I could say one thing, though: it does seem books have an endurance movies have proven to lack.

Then again, movies are available to many people who can't read (physically or otherwise), to people who won't read... and to many people in between.

Are we to say the written word is of higher cultural levels, thus being a higher state of art? That's snobbish, isn't it? Which brings me back to my original point.
 
I'd need to know what your definition of "art" is?
This is a conversation i've had with a few people over the years and heated debates have always been had...with no conclusion reached much of the time![sorry] lol
 
The best oral stories may have been as great as the best written stories that we know, but only a few relics remain, so it's hard to say. It's not that critics necessarily value the written word over the spoken word, as that there's almost nothing in the latter category to compare to the former.
 
If you write a sonnet, you'll end up sacrificing content in favour of metric and mathematical measurements of what canon tells us is a sonnet. Why not just write free lance poetry? Maybe it's more authentic.

That paragraph could be a free poem, a one-frame film, or a dance without a dancer (rather like John Cage's famous musical composition, 4'33", which consists of no music but just a pianist sitting silently at the piano). But regardless of what we call it, your content comes through just fine. Why write a sonnet? Because form is content.
 
And I agree, to some extent. And I absolutely get your point. Form is content, but what form? Who decides what the "correct" forms are? Are pieces of creativity less worthy because they do not adhere to some established standards?

I mean, if you want to follow the sonnet formula, you are in your right to do it, but you should do it because freely, you have the absolute voluntary intention of doing it as an integral part of your means of expression.

If someone is compelled to express himself in any other form (which is not probably named or determined), it should be perfectly acceptable, without diminishing its artistic or communicational value.

As I have said elsewhere, and I think you and I agree there, Tolkien's works are from perfect from a strictly academic point of view, still, that does not empoverish it.
 
To me, art is art....

Book writing is art;
Film making is art - although I must say that this has far digressed in recent years in my opinion because much of it is remakes, sequels & just plain trash.
Music is art, as is painting & sculpting, although I see some of this modern impressionistic stuff & wonder. [;)]
So is a well cooked meal (at least the chinese cooking I do, lol).

Is the book turned into a movie less art?
No, it's just different & somebody else's vision.
 
You only have to look at some of the crap Tracy Emin comes up with to see that !
So a book, a film, a painting, even a bag full of rubbish is/can be Art.
(yes, that is genuine and yes the cleaner at the gallery (Tate modern i think..) threw it away thinking it was rubbish. Philistine..couldn't they see it wasn't just ANY rubbish ?? FOOLS! ).

I don't really know what is meant by "more art" ?
More art like? more arty? more (and i SOOO hate this term!!!) worthy ??? eww[crazy]

A sprinter is more of a runner than a marathon runner, who is more of a jogger. But a marathon runners less of a racer because they can win a race by sprinting at the end, making them a jogger until they sprint !.....
All a bit silly i know. But can something be more of something???
(Almost certainly.....IF IT'S BIGGER!!! lol) [laugh]
 
Or the ear, or any of the senses for that matter - and the imagination and the emotions - anything that tickles any of these is art imho.
 
I love literature, and I was raised by a film buff, so this is a question that I don't get. Both are equally art. Art is everything that is done with a passion. Unfortunatly not many people understand that just because something's new to the scene, it can still be an art. CG, can be an art form, Jimi Hendrix is the Beethoven of his day, and I dare say that even speaking can be art. All and all, I just don't see the rift.
 
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