Season 2 had 60% decline in viewership
- Thread starter Victariongreyjoy
- Start date
Eruonen
Half-elven
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...-after-disastrous-season-2-viewership-report/
"...The story and all its many flaws is too far gone to recover. Short of a complete reboot, starting from scratch with better writers and new showrunners, I fear that Season 3 will only continue the downward trend."
"...The story and all its many flaws is too far gone to recover. Short of a complete reboot, starting from scratch with better writers and new showrunners, I fear that Season 3 will only continue the downward trend."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
https://thatparkplace.com/rings-of-power-season-2-ratings/
"....The colossal drop in viewership, coupled with lackluster audience reception, shows what happens when corporate priorities clash with the expectations of passionate fans. Whether Season 3 can reverse the show’s fortunes remains to be seen, but the outlook is anything but promising.
As it stands, The Rings of Power ratings have become a stark reminder that no amount of money can compensate for poor creative decisions."
Their core audience keepts getting smaller and smaller.
"....The colossal drop in viewership, coupled with lackluster audience reception, shows what happens when corporate priorities clash with the expectations of passionate fans. Whether Season 3 can reverse the show’s fortunes remains to be seen, but the outlook is anything but promising.
As it stands, The Rings of Power ratings have become a stark reminder that no amount of money can compensate for poor creative decisions."
Their core audience keepts getting smaller and smaller.
Junesong
Rohan
Here's my "take" on this:
There are many factors to consider here.
First, the show is really expensive and epic scaled. It's also not getting the kind of viewership traction it was hoping to. It's not a viral hit or a watercooler show that everyone loves to watch and then talk about. It's not appointment TV for most people. I'm sure that's concerning to Amazon. Also, some of the writing/production so far has been a bit dodgy which doesn't infuse a ton of confidence for improvement.
Also, there is certainly a very vocal slice of the internet who hates this show for all kinds of other reasons - some tangentially related to the writing/production/fidelity to source material etc, but much of it wildly unrelated to ROP and yet happy to pull it into their culture war and hate review it and build lucrative businesses around tearing it down etc. This complicates matters because it can sometimes feel like "EVERYONE" hates this show when really more is going on than the average consumer might realise.
ALSO, a lot of Amazon's costs for this production were really front loaded - meaning they're a bit pot committed at this point. They are 2/5ths of the way through and there may be some pressure to see it through in some capacity for return on investment.
FINALLY, the plot of the 2nd Age itself (which I - among many other fans - have been really happy and excited to see them adapt in their own way) is just coming into its own and many of the most exciting and integral parts of the story (Origin of Ringwraiths, Imprisonment of Sauron and the corruption and drowning of Numenor, Rivendell, the building of the famous locations from LOTR, The battle of the last alliance etc) are all still to come!
I think it would be wise to have a serious meeting with the writers followed by maybe some staffing changes to tighten things up and even out the quality. But anyone who has seriously been watching this show for the full two seasons with an open mind will tell you that it keeps getting better and better and I think will end up being something really cool and great.
Here's hoping they right the ship.
There are many factors to consider here.
First, the show is really expensive and epic scaled. It's also not getting the kind of viewership traction it was hoping to. It's not a viral hit or a watercooler show that everyone loves to watch and then talk about. It's not appointment TV for most people. I'm sure that's concerning to Amazon. Also, some of the writing/production so far has been a bit dodgy which doesn't infuse a ton of confidence for improvement.
Also, there is certainly a very vocal slice of the internet who hates this show for all kinds of other reasons - some tangentially related to the writing/production/fidelity to source material etc, but much of it wildly unrelated to ROP and yet happy to pull it into their culture war and hate review it and build lucrative businesses around tearing it down etc. This complicates matters because it can sometimes feel like "EVERYONE" hates this show when really more is going on than the average consumer might realise.
ALSO, a lot of Amazon's costs for this production were really front loaded - meaning they're a bit pot committed at this point. They are 2/5ths of the way through and there may be some pressure to see it through in some capacity for return on investment.
FINALLY, the plot of the 2nd Age itself (which I - among many other fans - have been really happy and excited to see them adapt in their own way) is just coming into its own and many of the most exciting and integral parts of the story (Origin of Ringwraiths, Imprisonment of Sauron and the corruption and drowning of Numenor, Rivendell, the building of the famous locations from LOTR, The battle of the last alliance etc) are all still to come!
I think it would be wise to have a serious meeting with the writers followed by maybe some staffing changes to tighten things up and even out the quality. But anyone who has seriously been watching this show for the full two seasons with an open mind will tell you that it keeps getting better and better and I think will end up being something really cool and great.
Here's hoping they right the ship.
OldestDaughter
Gondor
If they do season three well enough and end it at a good enough mark then even if they decide to no longer produce seasons 4-5, then we at least would have good breaking point that could leave it to connect to the films.
I would love to have all the seasons, but if they can't go past season three, then at least go out with a bang. But I also wonder how accurate this says when they say this show isn't looking too good for the future. I hope they just start doing the filming for season 3 so we can know at least we will have one more season.
I would love to have all the seasons, but if they can't go past season three, then at least go out with a bang. But I also wonder how accurate this says when they say this show isn't looking too good for the future. I hope they just start doing the filming for season 3 so we can know at least we will have one more season.
DwellerInDale
Rohan
By now, many fans of the show must be confused by these numbers that have been thrown around seemingly spelling disaster for the show. We noted months ago that Season 2 numbers were, as one could expect, somewhat lower than for Season 1, but that the show was still among the top original streaming shows as measured by the Nielsen ratings, which showed an approximately 19% decline. So how did Luminate come up with this 60% number?
As pointed out by Meneldor quoting Mark Twain, statistics can be deceiving.
The statistic Luminate used was Total Minutes Screened. When the show debuted, there was a massive marketing campaign, and the minutes viewed numbers were extremely high for the first few episodes when people were deciding whether or not the show was for them. Here are some comparative data from Luminate:
View attachment
Notice that the vast majority of the difference between Season 1 and Season 2 in total minutes is from the first two episodes of Season 1. Outside of this, there are three days where the numbers are identical, and Season 2 has no overall decline whatsoever over this period, while Season 1 had a significant decline. These data indicate what we've been saying all along: the show has a steady fan base that has kept it among the top original streaming shows, while many viewers of Season 1 realized early that ROP wasn't going to be a Game of Thrones with the violence and other attributes and decided that the series wasn't for them. Luminate's own data show this:
View attachment
The moral of the story: what Luminate means by "viewership" is not the number of people watching the show; rather, this was a sum of all minutes screened by their survey group, and that number was highly inflated by the first few episodes of Season 1. So those who interpret this as "60% fewer people watch the show compared to Season 1" are committing what is known as The fallacy of the average. A better statistic would have been to compare the numbers for the Season 1 finale to the Season 2 numbers. This would illustrate the above point, that ROP retained a loyal fan base that kept it among the top original screening shows.
As pointed out by Meneldor quoting Mark Twain, statistics can be deceiving.
The statistic Luminate used was Total Minutes Screened. When the show debuted, there was a massive marketing campaign, and the minutes viewed numbers were extremely high for the first few episodes when people were deciding whether or not the show was for them. Here are some comparative data from Luminate:
View attachment
Notice that the vast majority of the difference between Season 1 and Season 2 in total minutes is from the first two episodes of Season 1. Outside of this, there are three days where the numbers are identical, and Season 2 has no overall decline whatsoever over this period, while Season 1 had a significant decline. These data indicate what we've been saying all along: the show has a steady fan base that has kept it among the top original streaming shows, while many viewers of Season 1 realized early that ROP wasn't going to be a Game of Thrones with the violence and other attributes and decided that the series wasn't for them. Luminate's own data show this:
View attachment
The moral of the story: what Luminate means by "viewership" is not the number of people watching the show; rather, this was a sum of all minutes screened by their survey group, and that number was highly inflated by the first few episodes of Season 1. So those who interpret this as "60% fewer people watch the show compared to Season 1" are committing what is known as The fallacy of the average. A better statistic would have been to compare the numbers for the Season 1 finale to the Season 2 numbers. This would illustrate the above point, that ROP retained a loyal fan base that kept it among the top original screening shows.
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DGHCaretaker
Gondor
0. Far, far from unrelated, the loud criticism of the DEI Prime Directive component of Amazon policy driving all its productions was unavoidable after the opening salvo FROM the production against fan criticism. That was just plain stupid, dumb, and confrontational and Amazon should have expected no less. And it was used as marketing. Let's not just conveniently forget very long discussions on this.
1. My heart says cancel the thing before it further damages and insults the source materials. That's why people favor cancellation. It's not just because they don't like the show. I never understood people who would say certain things should not be made, but I understand it now. Respect for the creator, which too many contemporary adaptations have violated. But my mind says to every fan don't worry, it will go all five seasons, at least. Because Amazon. So the remaining fans can rest comfortably.
2. Season 3 is the first season that the show runners and writers can truly respond to Season 1 criticism as Season 2 was largely written before airing of Season 1. So if there is any hope, Season 3 will be the litmus test. Former writers were mostly, but not entirely fired, but leaving the original show runners in place is like cutting off the legs of a starfish and expecting an all new, smarter starfish. Nope.
3. The remaining fans may cling to hope like new swimmers from Titanic in disbelief with great hopes they'll be picked up before the freezing water claims them. Their show is unsinkable, and they are expert at finding anything positive and making excuses for the negative, lowering the collective bar of quality for all entertainment. Unlike Titanic swimmers, the Carpathia in the form of Amazon has a new Titanic in tow to continue the trip into repeating history.
4. I don't appreciate the implication of "anyone with an open mind will tell you that it keeps getting better..." I have a scientific, rational mind and I observe. A lot of this hope is an emotional love for the Tolkien Legendarium as I represent in Point 3. We really would like it if they do better and nothing sinks. Otherwise, see Pont 1. Sadly, hope isn't retroactive. But I'll let you know after Season 3, 4, and 5 eh?
DGHCaretaker
Gondor
Not sure I believe this, even if it is documented, which just means it is written down somewhere. It does, however, seem reasonable in that only those clinging to the life raft of hope would stay with the show after Season 1 and a little of Season 2.
Devoted fans of Tolkien aren't doing him any favors supporting and excusing a show I doubt he would enjoy using his name. Though what right do I have speaking on his behalf, right? Seems like a good thing to think about generally.
Junesong
Rohan
I remember all of our past conversations on this topic - it's just that we disagree.
For starters - I never said the criticism was unrelated - I said it was mostly unrelated. I stand by that. Your post does a pretty good job of underlining it for me.
Also - to your last point about my paraphrased claim that any open minded viewer will tell you the show is getting better, I stand behind it. I can't imagine any Tolkien fan actually watching this show through both seasons and not seeing an increase in quality and narrative cohesion. They are really starting to hit their stride. The only reason I come back to this is because, unless I'm mistaken, you're not even watching this show. So it feels a bit weird for you to jump up and down on your credentials as a scientific, rational and observational mind. There are a TON of shows out there that you don't have to watch to get the gist of the quality, but ROP is curling with flames in the white-hottest belly of the culture war. It is one of the most hated shows on the internet and has been since the first stills were released of the characters hands. This is not a normal rodeo.
(Overall, I agree with a lot of your points though. Especially about the five seasons not being in much jeopardy. I think the show will get made and I think it will end up being quite good - with not a little bit of retconning after the fact as the years go by and the culture war (hopefully) goes with it. Then we might get a better sense of how we all feel about things. Hopefully, by then you'll have found a way of watching the show without having to tangle yourself in Amazon's profit margins, or whatnot. I also agree with you about watching for a news drop Super Bowl weekend - good time for that kind of announcement, for sure!)
For starters - I never said the criticism was unrelated - I said it was mostly unrelated. I stand by that. Your post does a pretty good job of underlining it for me.
Also - to your last point about my paraphrased claim that any open minded viewer will tell you the show is getting better, I stand behind it. I can't imagine any Tolkien fan actually watching this show through both seasons and not seeing an increase in quality and narrative cohesion. They are really starting to hit their stride. The only reason I come back to this is because, unless I'm mistaken, you're not even watching this show. So it feels a bit weird for you to jump up and down on your credentials as a scientific, rational and observational mind. There are a TON of shows out there that you don't have to watch to get the gist of the quality, but ROP is curling with flames in the white-hottest belly of the culture war. It is one of the most hated shows on the internet and has been since the first stills were released of the characters hands. This is not a normal rodeo.
(Overall, I agree with a lot of your points though. Especially about the five seasons not being in much jeopardy. I think the show will get made and I think it will end up being quite good - with not a little bit of retconning after the fact as the years go by and the culture war (hopefully) goes with it. Then we might get a better sense of how we all feel about things. Hopefully, by then you'll have found a way of watching the show without having to tangle yourself in Amazon's profit margins, or whatnot. I also agree with you about watching for a news drop Super Bowl weekend - good time for that kind of announcement, for sure!)
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DGHCaretaker
Gondor
Let's amend that. I don't make my comments in a vacuum. I see enough of it without making my viewing part of the Amazon metrics, and without piracy. I have Prime but don't watch it at home or on my account anywhere else. As I've always said, admittedly without elaboration, "I don't give Amazon my metrics." I make sure my presence is not the reason or a contribution when an episode happens to be on, for example, at someone else's residence. Not that I do this, but a good example would be if it's on at a bar or social place like that. You get the idea. And to your final sentence I quoted, right - there are enough clips on YouTube and descriptions, synopses, and full length reviews everywhere you turn on the internet to essentially see an episode.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
if you haven't watched the episode, you haven't watched the episode. it's totally okay if you don't want to watch it / support Amazon. but don't claim to have any subjective take on the material without having seen or absorbed it.
Noria
Grey Havens
It’s good to see some actual logic and science injected into these discussions of viewership numbers. I always enjoy your takes on the science of Middle-earth too.
The numbers reported vary so great that I don’t take them seriously at all. It seems like RoP naysayers grasp at any seemingly negative numbers in their hope that the series will be cancelled, while others of us are just puzzled at the contradictions.
Junesong mentioned that Amazon has invested a huge amount of money upfront in RoP with what they paid for the rights, as well as a lot of prestige. They could cut their losses but, unless the series is losing a lot of money, maybe they don’t want to throw that investment away. Could it be that they’re contractually obliged to complete the project?
It’s been reported that the Season 1 & 2 writers have been let go and new ones hired, which I hope is a good indicator that Season 3 will happen. The showrunners remain, so any radical change in approach seems unlikely and I'm fine with that. So it seems, is Amazon.
The hysteria on YouTube notwithstanding and even with its story and writing issues, RoP is simply not that bad. If nothing else, its production values are very high, from the acting to the design to the music and everything in between. It certainly improved from Season 1 to 2.
I very much hope that RoP gets it’s full five seasons. But if it doesn’t, well, other favourite series of mine have been cancelled, starting with the original Star Trek so many years ago, and I survived.
The numbers reported vary so great that I don’t take them seriously at all. It seems like RoP naysayers grasp at any seemingly negative numbers in their hope that the series will be cancelled, while others of us are just puzzled at the contradictions.
Junesong mentioned that Amazon has invested a huge amount of money upfront in RoP with what they paid for the rights, as well as a lot of prestige. They could cut their losses but, unless the series is losing a lot of money, maybe they don’t want to throw that investment away. Could it be that they’re contractually obliged to complete the project?
It’s been reported that the Season 1 & 2 writers have been let go and new ones hired, which I hope is a good indicator that Season 3 will happen. The showrunners remain, so any radical change in approach seems unlikely and I'm fine with that. So it seems, is Amazon.
The hysteria on YouTube notwithstanding and even with its story and writing issues, RoP is simply not that bad. If nothing else, its production values are very high, from the acting to the design to the music and everything in between. It certainly improved from Season 1 to 2.
I very much hope that RoP gets it’s full five seasons. But if it doesn’t, well, other favourite series of mine have been cancelled, starting with the original Star Trek so many years ago, and I survived.
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Felagund
Gondor
Many thanks for reposting your previous views on TRoP, based on not having seen either Series 1 or 2. Some comments on this:
The above could just as easily be repurposed as:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a critic of the show, in the sense that I feel that there are things that can be picked over. Some of the writing is disappointing and amateur hour. Some of it is very good. Some of the performances and characterisations are weak. And some of them are awesome. In my opinion.
And on this:
Well, yes. Except for the empirical benefits that derive from observing the show itself. I watch the Critical Drinker, EFAP and AngryJoeShow reviews of TRoP on YouTube as well and enjoy them. But I don't base my criticism of the show only on those.
And I've seen reference, perhaps from you on these boards, to the 'Prime Directive'. I get the Star Trek reference but I can't find Amazon having something specifically called that. Is your reference for rhetorical effect (it's a good one, btw) or is it based on something actually published by Amazon? I can see, via Google, that they state in their 'Inclusion Policy & Playbook' the following:
Is that what you're referring to or is my Googling just superficial?
The above could just as easily be repurposed as:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a critic of the show, in the sense that I feel that there are things that can be picked over. Some of the writing is disappointing and amateur hour. Some of it is very good. Some of the performances and characterisations are weak. And some of them are awesome. In my opinion.
And on this:
Well, yes. Except for the empirical benefits that derive from observing the show itself. I watch the Critical Drinker, EFAP and AngryJoeShow reviews of TRoP on YouTube as well and enjoy them. But I don't base my criticism of the show only on those.
And I've seen reference, perhaps from you on these boards, to the 'Prime Directive'. I get the Star Trek reference but I can't find Amazon having something specifically called that. Is your reference for rhetorical effect (it's a good one, btw) or is it based on something actually published by Amazon? I can see, via Google, that they state in their 'Inclusion Policy & Playbook' the following:
Is that what you're referring to or is my Googling just superficial?
DGHCaretaker
Gondor
I like Star Trek, so "Prime Directive" is my own joke to myself as applied to DEI hiring at Amazon, playing on Amazon "Prime" and Amazon's DEI policy directives that are to be followed before any story considerations. Though I hear they are scaling back on policy, along with other companies who read the room, are bending the knee, and are kissing the ring after the recent US elections. Probably too late for Season 3 though.
The "Amazon Studios Inclusion Policy and Playbook" seems to be in a different format that it used to be. It's a collection of web pages now, but I remember more of a PDF format document before. I haven't read it recently, so I'm curious what changes they might have made.
Here are some of my previous posts on the topic, including references to how "The Expanse" was far superior in how organic DEI was to the production and story instead of driving production and story. DEI (and ESG) wags the dog, as it were. "The Expanse" was a great example of how good story and the spirit of DEI are done right.
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=1012836#1012836
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=1012760#1012760
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=988787#988787
The last link above was for a dedicated supporter of the show who didn't believe there was a corporate mandate for EDI. The citation to prove it went ignored, I'm sure. Links I provided in that post:
https://deadline.com/2021/06/amazon-studios-inclusion-policy-playbook-1234776831/
https://dei.amazonstudios.com/
By the way, thanks for asking.
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TFP
Lorien
Whilst the extent of any decline has certainly been exaggerated by those with axes to grind, I think all of the figures I've seen suggest that that there's likely been, at a minimum, no improvement in viewing figures between S2 and S1, this despite S2's [deserved imo] improved critical reception.
This is clearly relevant information.
I'm not sure what they might try now to widen its appeal. Cast a really big star [though in what role? Celeborn [
]?] a tie-in with Lego or Fortnite/otherwise marketing it harder to kids?
This is clearly relevant information.
I'm not sure what they might try now to widen its appeal. Cast a really big star [though in what role? Celeborn [
]?] a tie-in with Lego or Fortnite/otherwise marketing it harder to kids?
Junesong
Rohan
I think MORE ACTION would solve the problem. Season one was an (overlong) setting the table/world building intro back into a "different" Middle Earth than people expected. That gave them a slower start than they were expecting. Add onto that the unforseen (but probably inevitable) internet pogrom and things got really complicated.
Season two was much better and really delivered on some cool lore moments for fans but the action was late in coming and a little light when it came.
Based on the second age, I think we have some potential for some great action moments and more swords/sorcery/monsters/Middle Earthy stuff that Amazon can really advertise etc. So maybe that will widen the audience.
Also - leaning into a character like Gandalf, now that all the false flags have fallen away will really help. He's a great actor and I love the potential his character represents. Hopefully season 3 presents a character almost fully formed that can help anchor casual fans.
Season two was much better and really delivered on some cool lore moments for fans but the action was late in coming and a little light when it came.
Based on the second age, I think we have some potential for some great action moments and more swords/sorcery/monsters/Middle Earthy stuff that Amazon can really advertise etc. So maybe that will widen the audience.
Also - leaning into a character like Gandalf, now that all the false flags have fallen away will really help. He's a great actor and I love the potential his character represents. Hopefully season 3 presents a character almost fully formed that can help anchor casual fans.
DGHCaretaker
Gondor
"More action" sounds like the typical note from a suit that ignores the real problem: quality of the adaptation itself. And at the root of it is the lack of rights to do the story proper because it is fatally fractured by "The Estate."
By "false flags" do you mean the idiot Mystery Boxes that the JJ Abrams disciple show runners set up like kids covering their eyes and thinking they're invisible while most everyone else can easily and immediately see through the façade? To wit: Halbrand is Sauron and The Stranger is Gandalf? Excuse me - Grand Elf. Good lord. He's not even supposed to be there and there should be more deviation? Remember, there's still the old wizard they want us guessing about.
It seems fans will be eternally hopeful and grateful to find a clean spot in a sandbox full of cat poo.
Junesong
Rohan
I suppose "more action" could read like a shallow studio note. I can see that. But I think I made my point pretty clearly in terms of 2nd age lore and where we fall in the timeline for season 3.
Similarly, we've discussed the "Stranger is Gandalf" mystery box a bunch of times before. It was pretty explicitly telegraphed to those of us thoroughly initiated into the book lore (although - even then, we had some great debates among those of us who DON'T automatically condemn or derride this show like a reflex.) But for those of us fans who have not deep dived Tolkien lore, or who may be casual book or film fans (especially kids etc) I think it makes sense not only to introduce a brand name character to a non-canon timeline, but ALSO to do so in an "is he or isn't he" way - even if you run the risk of irritating some of the hardcore fans. It reminds me of the way Lucas brought the Emperor into the prequels - although the last thing I want to do is go down THAT rabbit hole.
I love this sandbox. There's plenty of room to play and I haven't seen any of the excrement you seem to be swimming in. The internet often reminds me of this quote from Lewis from his (best) Narnian story "The Magician's Nephew" wherein the narrator quips,
"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing. It also depends on what sort of person you are. Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed."
Ah Lewis. He has a quote for everything!
Similarly, we've discussed the "Stranger is Gandalf" mystery box a bunch of times before. It was pretty explicitly telegraphed to those of us thoroughly initiated into the book lore (although - even then, we had some great debates among those of us who DON'T automatically condemn or derride this show like a reflex.) But for those of us fans who have not deep dived Tolkien lore, or who may be casual book or film fans (especially kids etc) I think it makes sense not only to introduce a brand name character to a non-canon timeline, but ALSO to do so in an "is he or isn't he" way - even if you run the risk of irritating some of the hardcore fans. It reminds me of the way Lucas brought the Emperor into the prequels - although the last thing I want to do is go down THAT rabbit hole.
I love this sandbox. There's plenty of room to play and I haven't seen any of the excrement you seem to be swimming in. The internet often reminds me of this quote from Lewis from his (best) Narnian story "The Magician's Nephew" wherein the narrator quips,
"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing. It also depends on what sort of person you are. Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed."
Ah Lewis. He has a quote for everything!
