SCREENCAP OF THE DAY - ROTK Begins!

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One Ringer

Tol Eressea
Mae govannen TORn sibs! This week on SCOD, we begin "The Return of the King"! Sorry for the early posting, but I need to do so in order to get everything posted before I go on vacation. Now on with the caps! [:)]





A very chilling moment. A great way to open the film!

1.) Regarding the first cap, do you see this shot as a symbol? Does it show how corrupt the mind is to something so small?

2.) Smeagol does not look at Deagol directly as he suffocates. Does he feel guit? Does he really want to do this? Is the Ring making him do this?

3.) What do you think of the expressions in the second cap? What do you see in Smeagol's eyes? Shock? What do you think of Deagol? What feeling do you get looking at his dead face?

4.) For book-firsters, did this scene turn out the way you imagined it? If not, how did you envision it?

5.) Any other thoughts/comments?

P.S - Sorry about the sizing of the pics! This was the way I had them uploaded before I saw the notice. I'll make sure future pics are smaller.
 
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Wow, you've started us off with a good 'un!

Loved the inclusion of this scene, as a book firster it was everything I'd imagined. The change that passes over Smeagol as soon as he sees the Ring is so immediate, he's instantly besotted, and will stop at nothing to possess it. I don't think the Ring was entirely making him do it, the desire had to be there first. From the way I see it, the Ring will play on your weaknesses, but they have to be weaknesses that already exist.
 
...or not.


The movie only used sound effects for Smeagol and Deagol's fight, primarily a high pitched screechy sound and a steady pulsing sound. But music was scored for it. If interested, open up JimJWare's YouTube video in a new window so you can read and watch at the same time. The three themes we'll discuss are
  • the Seduction of the Ring theme---before this always heard as ethereal and almost always sung by a boy's choir - this is actually heard a bit earlier in this scene as Deagol falls under the spell of the Ring.
  • the Evil of the Ring also known as Sauron's Theme. This is the banshee-ish music heard most often (before this) when we see Barad-dur. It's interesting that Shore/Adams has chosen two names for this music and placed it under two categories. The Evil of the Ring is under the One Ring category and Sauron's Theme is under the Mordor category. But it is essentially the same music. One distinctive feature of this music is the instrument of choice, the rhaita. It's a double reeded oboe-like instrument from North Africa. It's provides a sense of nails on chalkboard for this theme.
  • Descending Third motif - This bears some similarities to the Dies Irae music and was used throughout FOTR as foreboding music.

0:25 - Smeagol grabs the Ring which Deagol is holding behind his back. The music has this repeating line that is the first few notes (or variations of) of the Seduction Theme. It's as if the orchestra is trying to get the Seduction Theme out and just can't quite find it or get it out. This music continues as they wrestle and as Deagol grabs Smeagol about the throat.

0:53 - But as soon as Smeagol grabs Deagol, the music changes. A speeded up version of the Seduction Theme begins. Now the Seduction Theme is not innocent sounding or beguiling at all. It is assertive and in your face.

1:00 The rhaita picks up Sauron's Theme/Evil of the Ring.

1:05 Deagol starts to lose some of his fight and the Descending Third motif starts in and fades as Deagol fades.



 
that Andy Serkis' spike in popularity was what prompted the writers to include this scene with him out of costume as it were?

Sometimes I find myself looking away during this scene... so painful and sad. Sekis was brilliant.

And the violence came on so suddenly, without warning, very visceral, perhaps one of the most violent scenes (the way it felt) in the Triliogy.

The ring bieng uber large in the frame is symbolic of its power but is also there to remind us what is really going on here (as you seem to suggest in point deux).
 
that this scene is truly horrid - which it is meant to be. PJ etc. did a very good job as it is one of my least favourite parts, it amazes me that such a scene is not graphic or gory, and yet is really quite un-nerving.

1.) Regarding the first cap, do you see this shot as a symbol? Does it show how corrupt the mind is to something so small?

I must admit I hadn't noticed! [blush]


2.) Smeagol does not look at Deagol directly as he suffocates. Does he feel guit? Does he really want to do this? Is the Ring making him do this?

Hmm, yes I've noticed before how he doesn't look at Deagol - but why I'm not sure, perhaps it is guilt, as if he isn't looking at his friend he can dismiss more easily what he is actually doing.


3.) What do you think of the expressions in the second cap? What do you see in Smeagol's eyes? Shock? What do you think of Deagol? What feeling do you get looking at his dead face?

This scene happens so fast, what with the heart thumping/ring throbbing sound going on, it turns my stomach. Smeagol seems totally possessed really. As for Deagol, he was so likeable whilst fishing, and seemed so innocent - I was rather sad to see him go! Nonethless my first thoughts were shock (I certainly wasn't expecting that at the start of the film).


4.) For book-firsters, did this scene turn out the way you imagined it? If not, how did you envision it?

5.) Any other thoughts/comments?

I have to say I do lke the pics coming out so big - but that is just me[crazy]
 
...especially mine asking people to please adhere to the site rules about picture size.

I trust the next posts you do will have smaller pictures in it. Otherwise, I'm going to add this in an endless loop to your SCOD posts. [evil]
 
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Right away I wondered if that's the same large-scaled Ring they used at Caradhras!! *spasm* This recreation of Smeagol taking ownership of the Ring (or the Ring taking ownership of him) was so eerie! I remember being so caught up in the lush green of the scene after leaving the other Fellowship members at Helm's Deep and the flooded Isengard.
 
as Gollum was. The same can be said for Isildur and Frodo. They only wore the Ring once or twice, and it had claimed them, because of their weak minds. Meanwhile Bilbo was the strongest, and was able to fight it for many years, even after wearing it so many times.
 
but it's mentioned in the commentaries and there's an article showing the maker (Jensen) holding it up. It's about 6 inches in diameter and is used for closeups like this, when it's lying in the snow before Boromir picks it up, etc :)
 
IIRC, I think the screenwriters just wanted to give Serkis some "face" time with his "own face", out of gratitude/recognition, etc. for his contributions to the films.

Ok, who's watched the commentaries here that can substantiate or refute this -- I confess, the only way I was getting through them was when we did Annotated Discussions around here, and we never got this far!
 
Given how violent it it -- mostly, Philippa and Fran left the fighting shots to Jackson, IIRC from the commentaries. But maybe I'm being too stereotyped in my thinking here...

What gets me is the beautiful green setting -- putting this horrible act in the middle of what basically looks like a picnic grove adds to the wrongness of it, somehow.

On the other hand, the whole idea of how the Ring could turn friends into enemies like this so quickly fits with nature -- in that nature has its violent side as well, like when a beautiful day turns suddenly stormy.

One thing the films emphasize here is that Deagol tried to choke Smeagol as well -- which gives me more of a sense of "pity" for Smeagol/Gollum. The impression I get is that neither of these guys could have resisted it, so it's less a personal flaw on the part of Smeagol for giving into it and more just the power of the Ring at work.

I'm not so crazy about the eye on the tower, but in terms of the Ring, the filmmakers handled that brilliantly, in terms of treating the Ring like a character. In this shot, with it lying there innocently while these two guys try to kill each other, it reminds me of the Emperor in Return of the Jedi having a great time while Luke and his Dad fight it out. It's clear that "it" is the motivator behind the actions, which reinforces that it's not just a thing, but an influencer of events, etc.
 
1.) Regarding the first cap, do you see this shot as a symbol? Does it show how corrupt the mind is to something so small?
It reminded me of how powerful the ring's effect is on one's mind. This is such a little thing (as Boromire Says on Caradhras), and here they are fighting over it.

2.) Smeagol does not look at Deagol directly as he suffocates. Does he feel guit? Does he really want to do this? Is the Ring making him do this?
I never noticed that. I think it's obvious the ring is making him do this; I don't see much symbolism in Smeagol looking away. I just get the impression he is trying to apply as much force as he can, which involves getting low.

3.) What do you see in Smeagol's eyes? the will to kill, compliments of The One Ring
What do you think of Deagol? Poor dufus. He was having a good time fishing with his buddy
What feeling do you get looking at his dead face? what a tragedy

4.) For book-firsters, did this scene turn out the way you imagined it?
yup

Nuradar
 
1.) Regarding the first cap, do you see this shot as a symbol?

Absolutely.


Does it show how corrupt the mind is to something so small?

It shows the cycle (circularity) of corruption and distrust that the ring causes. First it destroys the friendship between Smeagol and Deagol, and then later with Frodo and Sam...


2.) Smeagol does not look at Deagol directly as he suffocates. Does he feel guit?

It’s more like he’s in a trance, driven by a possessing force outside of himself. It’s like one of those testosterone driven moments where things quickly escalate out of hand. He’s probably not even thinking.


Does he really want to do this?

Deagol is obviously his best friend. A few moments earlier he was all upset and worried that Deagol had drowned.


Is the Ring making him do this?

The ring is having a bit of sadistic fun. Like it does with Frodo and Sam.


3.) What do you think of the expressions in the second cap?

Very nice.


What do you see in Smeagol's eyes?

A fascination, a curiosity about death. The expression shows that evil has been awakened in his soul.


Shock?

More like curiosity. An awakening wonder at the seductive power of violence. This is the first in a long line of murders.


What do you think of Deagol?

It’s telling that he lost his advantage of strength at the start of the struggle because he tried to hold onto the ring and so fought with only one hand.


What feeling do you get looking at his dead face?

His eyes look like those of a dead fish. Very telling.


4.) For book-firsters, did this scene turn out the way you imagined it?

Not really.


If not, how did you envision it?

I’d pictured it more a sneak attack from behind rather than a direct attack. It’s interesting that Deagol seems a lot more strong and sturdy than Smeagol, like Sam is compared to Frodo. Obviously the ring gives strength. I remember that burst of strength Frodo suddenly gets at the entrance of Mount Doom. It would seem it was from the ring.


5.) Any other thoughts/comments?

This is one of the sequences that Fran Walsh directed. She instructed Serkis and Robins to play the scene childlike. I think that initial innocence is its greatest strength. However, some have deemed it “goofy”.

There was always uncertainty as to where exactly to place this sequence. One possibility was during the Dead Marshes right after Frodo called Smeagol by his name. Another possibility discussed was during Smeagol’s internal debate scene, right after Gollum called him a murderer. But everyone associated with the film felt either placement would have thrown off the pacing. (I agree.) Only towards the very last did Jackson decide to go against his “James Bond opening” philosophy for the films and open ROTK with this scene. Non-book reading critics were virtually unanimous in praise for the unexpected and daring opening. However, most purists had the opposite reaction.

BTW, note Deagol tries to kill (choke) Smeagol first. However, this entire sequence seems slightly “off”, like it’s more a memory than reality. That is, this is how Smeagol remembers the incident. I think over time Smeagol would have tried to justify the murder as self-defense, so he probably changed his memory as to who became murderous first. Very nice.
 
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weaver wrote:
I'm not so crazy about the eye on the tower, but in terms of the Ring, the filmmakers handled that brilliantly, in terms of treating the Ring like a character. In this shot, with it lying there innocently while these two guys try to kill each other, it reminds me of the Emperor in Return of the Jedi having a great time while Luke and his Dad fight it out. It's clear that "it" is the motivator behind the actions, which reinforces that it's not just a thing, but an influencer of events, etc.
Click to expand...


This kind of touches on a point I made briefly in my music post. The music themes: Evil of the Ring and Sauron's Theme which are actually the same theme with two names. (find my music post in this thread for links to more information)

I noticed that Doug Adams, in the annotated score of the ROTK, started referring to this theme pretty exclusively as the Evil of the Ring. I wrote this when I was about half way through (in correspondence with another soundtrack fan):
magpie: It's interesting that Doug is choosing to consistently identify the theme as 'Evil of the Ring' and not 'Sauron's Theme'. IMO, it makes the antagonist the Ring and not Sauron. It's considerable less personal to do so and I'm not sure it's the best choice. The Ring is the tool of Sauron. The Ring has not sent the troops to Minas Tirith. The Ring is not bringing darkness to the land (not a factor in movie since they chose not to feature that aspect). And Gondor and Rohan are not fighting to gain control of the Ring. It's Sauron who is the big, bad here... not the Ring. The Ring is Frodo's burden and the thing he is most concerned with. And the Fellowship knows they are buying time for Frodo to destroy it. But I don't think the thousands of regular folk know anything about the Ring. They just know someone - Sauron - is trying to destroy their world and they're fighting back.

​
Perhaps it was a movie vs book thing. The Ring could appear more menacing to people than an eye could. But I just thought your comments fit well with my observation.
 
However, this entire sequence seems slightly “off”, like it’s more a memory than reality. That is, this is how Smeagol remembers the incident.
Click to expand...


Very nice idea! I think this would have been clearer if the scene had been in the Marshes, right after Smeagol says his name for the first time, which I think was the original plan. (You say it was for pacing reasons, although I think PJ said it was to keep audiences guessing about just how good or bad Smeagol really was.) I agree that this seems like the slightly dreamlike memory of Smeagol himself.

This is one of the sequences that Fran Walsh directed. She instructed Serkis and Robins to play the scene childlike.
Click to expand...


She also directed the scene with Sam and Frodo in the boat at Parth Galen, which this one seems to echo (or maybe it would be more accurate to say this one seems like a mirror image of that one). Was it shot at the same place? I seem to remember reading that, but I may be mistaken.
 
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