SCOD - August 15: "Just a fool's hope."

Nuradar

Nuradar

Rohan
For my last SCOD this week I'm posting two shots; one each of Gandalf and Pippin. My justification for having two images is that I want to focus this SCOD on the relationship between these two characters.

Despite the mischief that Pippin gets into and how it frustrates Gandalf, I always felt that Gandalf admired Pippin. This scene, to me, is like a continuation of the scene when they are in the courtyard, and Gandalf is explaining to Pippin the history of the line of kings of Gondor. Here he offers Pippin some comfort, which ties nicely to the scene later on in ROTK when the orcs are overtaking Minas Tirith and Gandalf comforts Pippin who believes he is facing imminent death.

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Dialogue:

Pippin: It's so quite.
Gandalf: It's the deep breath before the plunge.
Pippin: Is there any hope, Gandalf? For Frodo and Sam?
Gandalf: There was never much hope. Just a fool's hope.

  1. When watching the movies, did you sense that Gandalf still admired Pippin despite his apparent flaws? If not, does seeing these images next to each other change that for you?
  2. What do you think of the lighting in these two shots? Compared to the rest in this scene, they are warmer and a little brighter.
  3. What do you think is going through Pippin's mind at this point? Regret for pledging allegiance to Denethor? Regret for letting Frodo go? Fear of war? anything?

Thanks everyone for a great week of SCOD. I've enjoyed posting and reading your excellent comments and observations, and reading your interesting thoughts. I look forward to hearing your throughts on these screen caps. Enjoy!

Nuradar
 
Gandalf has always called Pippin a fool, for whatever it is he does, but in this moment before war, he calls himself a fool. To me, it seems like he's saying that in the face of war, we cannot be disliking to one another, we have to learn to work together, or we'll never win the battle.

Great week Nuradar! [:)]
 
  1. When watching the movies, did you sense that Gandalf still admired Pippin despite his apparent flaws? If not, does seeing these images next to each other change that for you? I like the conversations between the two. I think Gandalf has always seen much potential in the Hobbit people. Otherwise he would not bother to have spent so much time with them. He may have called Pip a fool but that may have been him expressing his disappointment in someone he expected more from.
  2. What do you think of the lighting in these two shots? Compared to the rest in this scene, they are warmer and a little brighter.The shot on Pip seems warmer. I have a sense that he's still so young and naive.
  3. What do you think is going through Pippin's mind at this point? Regret for pledging allegiance to Denethor? Regret for letting Frodo go? Fear of war? anything? In this scene, I think he's still in awe of everything that's going on and of the future. Still trying to grasp the meaning of it all.
 
It's funny you bring up Pippin being called a fool by Gandalf, because when I watch this scene I think of the exact same thing, but have a slightly different take. Gandalf's "fool's hope" to me is a way of encouraging Pippin to keep hope alive. To Men, Elves, Dwarves, and Wizards it always was folly to think Frodo and Sam could complete their task, but to naive hobbits, hope is always present. This is the hope Sam is constantly displaying on his journey with Frodo. Ignorance is bliss.
 
I like how Gandalf uses the word "fool" to bond with Pippin here. Pippin was the one who alerted the orcs in Moria, he almost gives away the quest to Sauron, and he messes up Gandalf's game plan with Denethor. Each time, Gandalf is less than pleased with him, and he uses the word "fool" in a deprecating way toward Pippin in two of those cases. So here you have Gandalf taking the "sting" out of that word, by using it as a way of bonding with Pippin. It's a gentle moment of forgiveness, nicely acted by Sir Ian and Billy Boyd.

The scene also reminds me a bit of the scene from the original Star Wars movie, when Han Solo calls Ben Kenobi a "damn fool" and Kenboi responds with "Who's the more foolish --- the fool, or the the fool who follows him?" I guess wizards and fools just kind of go together!

Thanks for being our leader this week and the double SCOD treat today!
 
In mythology fools are like tricksters, on the surface they're not taken seriously but by their actions and words they bring about change....

And Gandalf as a wizard in LOTR was there to spur the people of ME to action and change....

So here we have a fool and a wizard ... and in that light, maybe it's hard to tell which one is which, at the moment....
 
The idea of giving Pippin hope, almost like making him seem stronger than Gandalf. I don't know if you mean it that way, but there's that way thinking about it too.
 
May I say, Weaver, that often when I read your responses I think that you have said what I want to say but can't quite find the words for. I always enjoy reading your posts.
 
"It's the deep breath before the plunge," is one of my favourite moments. I never tire of it. Great SCOD, thanks.
 
was refering to himself when he tells Pippin 'only a fools hope' - his own hope that Frodo and Sam would accomplish what the Fellowship set out to help them do. I think Gandalf speaks for himself when he says that to Pippin - and I see it coinciding with another line Gandalf uses where he seems vulnerable - "I have sent him to his death" ... refering to Frodo, and Gandalf's emotional reaction to the Mithril mail shirt being flung at him ... I think these are times where we see Gandalfs doubt - but in contrast also to Pippins naivity and uncomplicated way he see's a world through hopeful eyes.

Pippin to me has held a capacity through the Fellowship to be a catalyst for greater things to be able to happen - even if the other members have not been able to rationalize what he has done (because it all seems like something foolish) he has himself turned the tide in fortunes favour in hindsight.

Thanks for the great SCOD Nuradar!
Cheers
Elven x
 
Part of what makes Gandalf such an interesting character is not knowing the extent or limits of his powers. Sometimes he seems to know more than the others, but then there are times he doesn't. Sometimes he can use extraordinary means to overcome obstacles or accomplish some task, and sometimes he can't. Sometimes he's confident and full of conviction, and then sometimes, as you noted, he exhibits doubts. Maybe that's why he was so impressed by Hobbits, they had such a core of unshakeable hope and courage.
 
... and I think its why I like the conversation he and Pippin have - he is not talking down to Pippin - he's just looking down at him because he's taller [:)]

Thanks for that Loresilme [:)]
Cheers
Elven
 
I enjoyed Gandalf's description of death not being so bad.

And although the films cannot be considered canon, it was interesting to me that Gandalf described the soul's flight over the seas to Valinor to Pippin. Considering that Hobbits are supposedly more akin to men and "The Gift" of unknown death. He comforts Pippin in in the tale of what his soul will experience on its flight to Valinor and "it's not all that bad"

PS Admin, shouldn't the spell check on TORN be tweeked to not underline words such as Gandalf and Valinor as being misspelled or am I having a brain malfunction in misspelling them?
 
and not set up to help with Tolkien words. At one point, (Sept 07), modifying the word list was stated as: low down on the priority list.

I once worked on creating a Tolkien word list for my word processing spell check function. I worked on it for months. Then my computer crashed and I lost it and never bother to repeat the exercise. I do have some words added to my html WYSIWYG editing program. I just ignore the spelling prompts (underlines) or google the word in another tab to get the correct spelling (or accented letters when I want them).
 
First of all, thank you so much for this past week :) It's been wonderful.

THEN thank you for this. I love these two together, and you've picked a lovely example of their chemistry and appreciation for each other. It also brings me right back to that first time in the theatre when I heard this exchange. First as Pippin says Frodo and Sam's names in almost a whisper... as if looking off at the fiery mountain he senses their presence near there. I was thrown back to the hobbits suddenly being together again and realized how long it'd been since they were together... as they should be. Then Gandalf's sweet, appreciative, warm response just melts my heart. *tearing* Gad I love this story... and these films.
 
Sorry for being late in my responses to this SCOD. Been busy with the start of my holidays.

I suppose he is calling himself a fool, albeit indirectly. But he's very humble in this moment, for sure. Thanks One Ringer! And I'm glad you enjoyed my screencaps this week!

Nuradar
 
I like the idea of Gandalf feeding off of Pippin's hope, and that of all the hobbits. What a nice added dimension to this scene. Thanks, Elros!

Nuradar
 
I agree, SC, that Gandalf has deep admiration for all hobbits. In each movie, he makes at least one comment that reveals his respect for them. Thanks, Salty Coqui.

Nuradar
 
Nicely put, weaver. I agree that Gandalf is bonding with Pippin, and almost in an apologizing way.

And bonus points (if I were giving out points!) for relating in some way to Star Wars. [;)] Thanks weaver!

Nuradar
 
weaver rocks! She has such a talent for expressing so much in so few words, and she almost always points out things I hadn't noticed about the movies. Love your posts, weaver. Keep 'em coming. Thanks,

Nuradar
 
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