SCOD 11 - Frodo in the Eye ? (with bonus SCOD)

Magpie

Magpie

Immortal
The Screencap of today is this one:

View attachment

I deliberately presented it this tiny for a reason.

The summer of 2002 was the summer I got obsessed with LOTR - books and movie (just FOTR at that time). For the first time, I turned to the internet to get more - more of anything I could find on Tolkien. Till that summer, I'd only used the internet for work and email correspondence.

One of the sites I found that I spent a lot of time perusing was "The Art of the Rings"

I think this guy stretches his theories a lot but I still appreciated reading all his analysis of the movie imagery. One of his observations had to do with my SCOD image (of Frodo in the doorway).

He wrote about it: Frodo is about to pick up the ring dropped by Bilbo. Not only is he Bilbo's heir but he is already within the Eye. See how Bag End frames Frodo within the shape of the Eye. Frodo himself is the 'pupil.'

He pushes this analysis/observation a bit further with other shots - some push it too far, imo. But I think this image requires some consideration. Is this Frodo as the pupil in an Eye?

The movies definitely sought to depict Sauron as an Eye (more than the books, many would contend). And when I looked at some early sketches of the Eye I realized how much they had made the Eye look like the Ring:

View attachment

I don't think this is a serendipitous accident at all and if I don't think that was, then why would I dismiss this one:

View attachment

But it's only a fun exercise for me. What I'm wondering is:
QUESTION #1
What do you think about this image of Frodo in the doorway. Do you think it looks like an eye and, if so, do you think it was deliberate? If you visit the Art of the Rings site, do you have anything you wish to say about what he's attempting there?

As for this scene in the movie...
QUESTION #2
when you first watched it... how apprehensive were you that something bad was going to happen or was lurking in the dark? Here's a big larger image of the screencap:

View attachment

And the larger version is here: http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib/html/episodes/images/fotr/fotr0246.htm

QUESTION #3
What do you think of the lighting in this shot? The lighting is certainly achieving a number of things - mostly because there's so little of it that it defines what we see and how we see it.


__________________________________________________


The bonus shot is this one.

View attachment

larger version here: http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib/html/episodes/images/fotr/fotr0254.htm

close-up:

View attachment

BONUS QUESTION
When did you first find out the story behind those portraits? :-)


and as always...
feel free to expand or wander in any direction you feel inclined to.


 
1. What do you think about this image of Frodo in the doorway. Do you think it looks like an eye and, if so, do you think it was deliberate?

Yes, it definitely is a reflection of the Eye. Whether it is deliberate or not, is difficult to say.

From experience, often it is only after a shot is made that an artist can see what they themselves were trying to say. While making the scene the image in one's mind drives the decisions you make, but there is often no verbal component or equivalent until after the image is made.

For some, sketching and story boarding may be the level at which elements are recognized, converted to verbal language, then kept or discarded in making the final image. But I find that when you approach image making with a set of symbols, or a symbolic meaning you want to come through, the result is often clunky or contrived... again this is my own experience. (Writers too may experience this sort of thing, only seeing the symbolism and word play after they have written what their muse lead them to write.)

For anyone interested in this type of analysis, you might learn from Ways of Seeing by John Berger.

If you visit the Art of the Rings site, do you have anything you wish to say about what he's attempting there?

Well after a quick perusal, it may be a response to the idea that if something is wildly popular it must have low artistic merit. Now Jackson is no Ingmar Bergman but he approaches Hitchcock in his ability to create artistically pleasing work. That his films can also be appreciated as pure entertainment is the mark of a genius really. Perhaps too The Art of the Rings guy is pointing to the artistry of LOTR that is often overlooked or down played in favour of the story and spectacle.

2. when you first watched it... how apprehensive were you that something bad was going to happen or was lurking in the dark?

The curtains fluttering was the first indication that something or someone might be lurking.

3. What do you think of the lighting in this shot? The lighting is certainly achieving a number of things - mostly because there's so little of it that it defines what we see and how we see it.

Yes, the disturbed papers, lots of shadowy nooks, Frodo in silhouette, all point to Frodo walking into something that is not altogether pleasant. This really changes our experience of Bag End, turning it from a comfy refuge to a place that is no longer safe to stay in.

When did you first find out the story behind those portraits? :-)

I'm not sure I ever did? If it is Fran and Peter, I can see now that the woman looks like Fran Walsh. But I can only say that because we know what she looks like now that she has stepped to the forefront while making The Hobbit.
 
Last edited:
But isn't this screencap taken after Frodo gets back from the Green Dragon? I thought Gandalf was in the frame when Frodo arrives and finds the Ring?
 
Yes, I think it definitively looks like the Eye, and I am fairly certain that it was intentional, based on the composition and the amount of time Frodo lingers in the center of the "iris," not to mention the duration of the shot itself. Fluttering papers are a tiny bit of misdirection to avoid the over-obvious or clunky feel. I am actually a little embarrassed not to have noticed this before.

Thanks for the link to The Art of the Rings site. I am looking forward to spending some time there looking around. If I were going to presume to assess what he is trying to say, it would be There is more here than you realize. Come and see. I agree with that.

There is a continuous line of development of tension with the scenes in Bag End, from Gandalf's arrival, to Bilbo's farewell, to Frodo's inheritance, to this scene. Darkness obviously is an easy way to build that tension, and this is the darkest moment in Bag End. I note that a few shots prior we were shown a frightening creature being directed toward the Bagginses, and I am sure there was some apprehension that Frodo would here meet that threat. Gandalf''s shocking emergence was a bit of a trope, but the interesting thing is that when he is revealed as Gandalf, he still looks scary...and scared. Given what we knew about him up until this point, that is bound to have an impact on the audience.

The lighting makes the shot, of course, particularly the Eye illusion. Now that I see that part, it makes me want to concentrate on the chair and the window, for some reason. Note that in the next shot, as Frodo turns and we see over his shoulder, for the first time Bag End looks like a long dark tunnel, with just a little light coming from the other end. Hmm.

I think Wraith is correct: this shot does not precede Frodo picking up the Ring, as stated on TAoR site; instead that happens earlier, after Bilbo's farewell.

Thanks to all the SCOD Masters, and thanks Magpie. This is very intriguing for me.
 
for me to sort of wrestle with a design concept, have it come together, and then stand back and be able to see how deeply I've managed to create a cohesive approach.

It puts me in mind of how Howard Shore says he reads as much as he can and listens to as much as he can and then he puts it away and dreams. Literally.. he processes a lot of what he wants to do in dreams.

And I think about how Bruno Bettelheim encourages people to tell stories (even familiar folk and fairy tales) rather than read them because it allows our own stuff to come through, then. My point being, there is stuff that can come through - even if subconsciously. And the use of the word 'stuff' is deliberate. I don't mean to imply that I have any deep understanding of it all... just an abiding curiosity. I'll check out that link you provided.

You make a good point about how Bag End is changing. Or our perception of it is. When I read books to kids, I had a unit called 'Change Over Time' and one of the books was Goodnight Moon. If you get to the end of the story and immediately flip back to the beginning (which one will do when being begged for another read), there's a bit of a start when you realize how bright the room is at the beginning and how dark it's become at the end. I don't think this is at all noticeable without the forced comparison. So, Bag End is getting darker... less comfortable and safe. I hadn't noticed that until you pointed it out.

And yes, the two portraits are modeled after Fran and Peter. The characters are Belladonna Took and Bungo Baggins.
 
It's funny, I did kind of read that line as I swiped and pasted it but I was less interested in what that person was saying than setting up a conversation here. So I didn't process it.

It's interesting to note the author of that site made what we'd now consider a bit of a 'duh' mistake. I recently reposted some observations I made very soon after watching ROTK for the first few times (within a week's time period) and someone pointed out a few similar mistakes in my observations. I hadn't really reread or edited those 8 year old observations and hadn't caught them as I reposted them.

What it pointed out to me is how deeply familiar we've become with the movies since that time. Now we'd rarely make those kind of mistakes... but back then, with my observations and I'm sure with the Art of the Rings person, we hadn't seen it probably more than a handful of times and we hadn't watched the DVD umpteen times.

It's kind of fun to think back to that earlier state of being.
 
What do you think about this image of Frodo in the doorway. Do you think it looks like an eye and, if so, do you think it was deliberate?

I do think it looks like an eye and perhaps the roundness of the doorway suggests the ring -- making the connection between Eye of Sauron and the true master of the Ring. Also, the shape suggests an evil, or at least dangerous, eye (usually vertical slits are meant to connote that symbolism -- especially snakes.)

Given the amount of pre-vis and the quality of the DoP (not to mention art direction and PJ himself) I would say that this shot was very definitely planned.

When you first watched it... how apprehensive were you that something bad was going to happen or was lurking in the dark?

Oh, I think right away (if I remember correctly.) Partly to do with having read the book first, partly the darkness, and partly the score. It was confirmed by the fluttering papers.

What do you think of the lighting in this shot? The lighting is certainly achieving a number of things - mostly because there's so little of it that it defines what we see and how we see it.

As I mention above, the darkness contributes to the apprehension of the scene (yes, I have watched one or two scary movies in my time... .) The light illuminates just enough of the room for the viewer to figure out from where the big bad is going to jump out.

When did you first find out the story behind those portraits?

Is the story in the EE Appendices? I feel as though that is where I learned about them, but I can't be absolutely certain.
 
The Eye element in that shot is something I would've never noticed, atleast, not for a long time, but most likely never. I'm not sure if it was ever deliberate (I don't recall any sort of mentioning it in the commentaries or bonuses), but when considering what might have been illustrated in designs and storyboarding, there is a great possibility that it might have been so. The shot itself presents a very cold and haunting atmosphere, and is one of the last moments leading to Frodo taking the Ring in his hand. The light on the door could be distinguished as Frodo's previous, more simple and carefree living, and ahead the shroud of dark and mystery to unfold. In the end, both elements collide to form the Ring (that holds both parties by a thread). Very cool ideas this proposes. [cool]
 
in Charge of Principle Photography
says very Littl but is a huge influence on PJ...Yes, Yes Yes, he is Back!
I view this thread as an Enormous Easter Egg! Thank you MP Wonderfullllllll!
xxoxoxox Goldberry's Squeeze
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top