Question on the Mirkwood elven path

[Cirashala]

Hello all! Been six months- life's been crazy busy!

Anyway, I have been re-reading The Hobbit, and have some questions that need answering, specifically regarding the elven path. So, I know that Gandalf cautioned the company against leaving it, warning them that they will "never find it again". Yet they found the elven gate no problem, and could at least see the path when they were on it. Ofc, Gandalf led them to the gate, so one could argue that he knew the elves' secret way to find it, if there was indeed a magic-induced veil over it to the untrained eye. But this seemingly contradicts Gandalf's decision to leave them at the forest edge, as this means it's possible that the dwarves would lose the path entirely (for example, at the enchanted stream, where it was literally broken).

Tolkien writes that the path was mysteriously clear of the cobwebs, and that it was unclear to Bilbo (since the book is from his POV) whether it was magic or something else that kept the path clear of the cobwebs.

We know the stream was enchanted, but, aside from the "never find it again", and "some magic may be keeping the webs clear", we really have no other indication, that I can see, that there's anything magical about the elven path.

So my question is:

Did he warn them that they would never find it again because Mirkwood is dark, and very thickly wooded, and it's so easy to get lost? (ie non magical explanation)

OR...is there some sort of magic on the path/enchantment that makes it visible if you're on it, but invisible if you're not? (ie elven magic at work)

Given the confusing nature of the forest, with the shadows that Sauron cast upon it (though seemingly absent in the elven areas, which further causes some confusion here), and how thickly wooded it was, I suppose either one is a distinct possibility. One who is unfamiliar with dense woods approximately 600 miles long by 200 miles wide could easily find themselves lost, and unable to find a path, even in this absent-of-elven-magic world. And, sadly, it's happened all too often in the real world.

So which one do you think it is? Simply easily lost in a dense forest, or some elven magic at work on the path that conceals it from travelers who aren't actually on it directly?

 

[Otaku-sempai]

I wonder if Tolkien left this ambiguous intentionally? It may be one of those mysteries that is never meant to be solved. I would add, though, that it was never Gandalf's intention to remain with the company beyond the Misty Mountains as he already had a previous appointment with his "council of white wizards" (i.e., the White Council).

On the other hand, Gandalf seems to have been unaware of the impassable state of the Old Dwarf Road and originally thought that the company could use that in order to pass through Mirkwood.

 

[Cirashala]

He was quite good at ambiguity!

True. I knew about the council meeting.

Yeah. Maybe he is not as familiar with Mirkwood anymore as he used to be. Beorn definitely seemed to provide more intelligence on it than he was aware of, so either it deteriorated very quickly, or he hadn't passed that way in quite some time.

 

[Eldy]

You raise an interesting question. My assumption has always (insofar as I can remember anything about my first read-through of The Hobbit) been that the risk of not finding the path was in some sense magical, not due to an enchantment on the path, but because Mirkwood itself was preternaturally dangerous and easy to get lost in. "Perilous," to put in Tolkienian terms. Though, as you note, even a non-magical forest of Mirkwood's type can be dangerous to travelers.

 

[Voronwë_the_Faithful]

He warned them that they would never find it again because Mirkwood is dark, and very thickly wooded, and it's so easy to get lost, and because Mirkwood is full of Elven enchantments and therefore the path is easily lost. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Cirashala]

you think it might be both? An enchantment on the path, AND just the simple perils of a really tangled and thick, dark forest?

I suppose the only reason why I am skeptical about path enchantment is simply because the spiders were able to cross it, even if they didn't necessarily stay on it. They certainly gave the elves some trouble, given that they were the only living things the elves had no mercy upon (suggesting that they were perilous to elves as well), so if it were possible to prevent entry over the path by enchantment, I would think the elves would have done so in a heartbeat.

It's obvious that not all of Sauron's power was capable of completely undoing elven enchantment, given the enchantment in the stream was presumably by elven machination (Bombur's dream of the elves feasting in the wood definitely speaks of elven magic, not Sauron's). And that the elven part of the forest, while thick and dense, is not nearly as dark as the rest of it, and that greenish hue is most likely from a very thick and dense green canopy, not the unnatural, inky darkness in the rest of the forest due to Sauron's presence in Dol Guldur.

I guess I'm saying that the elven part of the forest definitely seemed to keep Sauron's influence at bay. The enchantment over the stream was definitely their doing, but the path doesn't seem powerful enough to stop the spiders. Leaving both as a possibility. As you said, neither mutually inclusive, nor mutually exclusive.

Gotta say one thing about Tolkien- in many ways, his works leave more questions that need answering, rather than answers to questions! [unimpressed][]

 

[Voronwë_the_Faithful]

I don't think that Tolkien was terribly concerned about making The Hobbit "make sense" so much as he was interested in entertaining his children. I think he had Gandalf say that because it ramped up the tension and created the kind of atmosphere that he was trying to create. Sometimes I think we the fans try to hard to make sense out of things that he wasn't too concerned about, particularly with The Hobbit, which wasn't really mean to be part of the mythology.

That having been said, your explanation works for me! [heart]

 

[Silvered-glass]

It is possible that the compound eyes of the spiders defeat any Elven enchantment that might be there, Doriath-style, to confuse the paths of those who approach the road, plus the spiders are able to move in the forest canopy above the road, giving additional perspective.

Elves not having compound eyes themselves, it would be hard for the Elves to design an enchantment to defeat a type of vision they don't have. They could never be sure if it was correctly implemented.

Now that I think of it, the Elves probably saw the border fence function of the road more important than the road function. Even if spiders can get across, Orcs would get lost and confused.