Movie Tech. Discussion 16 – Post production: Music

"If we step back and think about it, music is one of the most peculiar conventions in movies. No one questions that music should be a part of movies because we’ve all grown used to the idea that, in a movie, when two people kiss, we should hear music in the background. Or when the platoon attacks the beach, a symphony should provide the inspiration behind their assault. Of course, no one has a soundtrack accompanying their real lives. But in movies we not only accept this convention, we demand it." (1.)

According to Peter Jackson "The music score on any film is obviously vitally important because it totally guides your emotions when you’re watching the film; I mean, the actors can do their job, the director can do their job in terms of creating a certain amount of mood and emotion. But, obviously, music is like so strong and evoking – what you should be feeling at any given time." (2.)

Movie music can be divided into two categories: diegetic and non-diegetic. Non-diegetic is what you normally think of as movie music, that which is outside the world of the movie. Diegetic music is music that is actually heard by the characters, like Pippin singing to Denethor, or Aragorn singing in the marsh, or the lament for Gandalf. Magpie’s site has a much more detailed explanation. The link to her site is given below.

I have long thought that it would be an interesting exercise to take a movie, maybe a short film, and have music created for it by several different composers. I think that the same movie would feel completely different each time. I did come across something like that on line. Lyricist Marilyn Bergman ("The Way We Were," "The Windmills of Your Mind"), at a symposium on movie music at the Grace Rainey Rogers Auditorium of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, did a presentation called "The Marriage of Music and Film." One of the things that she did was have three different composers, Henry Mancini, Dick Hyman and Mark Isham, provide music for the same 19-second film clip of a woman walking into a darkened house at the end of the day, turning on a light, climbing the stairs, entering a bathroom and starting to brush her teeth.

"Mrs. Bergman described the scene differently to each composer. Mr. Hyman was told that the woman comes home to a house that is blissfully empty and quiet now that her husband and his two children from a previous marriage have finally left. Mr. Mancini's description was that the woman comes home to the house that she had shared with a husband who walked out on her. Mr. Isham was told that the woman is unaware of something the audience knows - that there is an intruder in the house.

"While the scene was replayed, Mr. Hyman and Mr. Mancini each conducted a small orchestra on the stage. Mr. Isham played an electronic fragment he had written at home. In all cases, the clip came alive. Mr. Hyman's jaunty tongue-in-cheek music expressed quiet comic relief; Mr. Mancini's was wistfully romantic, and Mr. Isham's tinglingly suspenseful." (3.)

The first time that a movie sound track caught my attention, and the first one that I ever bought, was 2001: A Space Odyssey. The two main pieces, "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and "The Blue Danube," were both composed by Richard Strauss and performed by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. The first was conducted by Karl Bohm and the second by Herbert von Karajan. I still get chills when I hear "Also Sprach Zarathustra," even though it has been over used in TV commercials, and I still think that the soundtrack had the best rendition of "The Blue Danube" that I have ever heard. But that is just me.

I think that the next time that a sound track made me take notice was probably the first Star Wars movie. I drove home with the closing theme in my head, probably driving a bit too fast. The composer for Star Wars was John Williams. Williams had just won an Oscar for Jaws and had a long list of movies and shows that he had composed the music for, one of which was the theme for the TV series Lost in Space. The music for Star Wars was recorded over 12 days with the London Symphony Orchestra. This was a bit of a gamble as it wasn’t the trend at the time to use traditional symphonic sound in movies. Lucas had been having a lot of trouble getting this first movie made and the music was the first thing that had actually exceeded his expectations. All of this information I got from the Star Wars Trilogy extras. I haven’t been able to find the source, but I remember hearing somewhere that the music made the movie seem larger and grander than it actually was.

George Lucas: "On the original film I was looking for someone who really understood classical movie scoring, and I was talking to Steve Spielberg about it and he had worked with Johnny (Williams) on Jaws and said, ‘This is the man for you.’ He’s perfect; he really understands the medium and once I worked with him on Start Wars, you know, I would never have anybody else doing it." (4.) "Johnny (Williams) really understands movie music; it is not just laid in there; he really tells a story." (5.)

Rick McCallum: "John (Williams) over sees the entire process of getting the music he has imagined inside his head out onto the screen. He and the music editor, Ken Wammberg, worked with a staff of orchestrators and, of course, the extraordinary London Symphony Orchestra – a group of more than 100 deeply talented musicians." (5.)

The next movie sound track that impressed me was the one from the first Star Trek movie. There seems to be a pattern here. I was absolutely mesmerized by the grand tour of the new Enterprise and I thought that the music was wonderful. But that is not the way it started out. Director Robert Wise chose Jerry Goldsmith to compose the music. According to the bonus features from Star Trek: The Motion Picture, The Directors Edition, when Goldsmith wrote the music for the grand tour of the Enterprise he was quite proud of it. But, when Robert Wise heard it he didn’t like it. Wise said "I listened to the first couple of pieces and it didn’t seem quite right to me. I got visions of sailing ships somehow." He couldn’t really explain what he didn’t like about, but he told Goldsmith that he had to do it over again and Goldsmith was crushed. He asked Wise just exactly what was wrong and Wise replied "There’s no theme." So, Goldsmith went away and reworked the music. When he played the new version for Wise, Wise said, "That’s it! Why didn’t you go with that in the first place?"

And then came The Lord of the Rings.

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Howard Shore, Composer/Man of Rohan

When Peter Jackson created the animatic for The Lord of the Rings, he used temporary music tracks from different movies. One composer’s name who kept showing up was Howard Shore. Peter decided he really liked Howard Shore’s music. But, this was not going to be a normal moving-scoring process.

Peter Jackson commented, "It sounds mercenary but we were looking for a composer who would give us a bit more than usual. The normal film industry arrangement is that you engage a composer, talk about the film and they then don’t start working till they get a cut of the movie. You pay them a fee for about six weeks and some composers do as many as four or five scores a year. We wanted to find the right person – somebody who was willing to commit to the project for a significant period of time – and Howard turned out to be perfect. He devoted himself to it slavishly and apart from Panic Room and Spider, which he scored for friends David Fincher and David Cronenberg, he worked virtually full time on The Lord of the Rings for three years. Unbelievable. He was as obsessed as we were!" (7.)

"Studio filmmaking in the classical Hollywood era emphasized efficiency, following an assembly-line mode of production with a highly specialized division of labor. Work on the score began when the film was in rough cut and was usually completed within three to six weeks . . . The process began with a spotting session to determine in which ‘spots’ to place the music. Composers produced sketches of the music, but orchestrators . . . produced the finished version of the score . . . The top Hollywood composers established long-term relationships with orchestrators or arrangers they trusted . . . Some composers had the privilege of conducting their own work, but usually it was the studio's musical director who conducted. Often, especially on ‘B’ pictures, teams of composers, arrangers, and orchestrators worked together, so screen credit can be misleading . . . " (8.)

According to Paul Broucek, Executive Music Producer for The Lord of the Rings, "Howard is incredibly hands-on as a composer in his whole approach. Because he not only composes the music, he orchestrates and conducts." (9.)

When Fellowship of the Ring was released, Howard Shore had been on the films for two years. As stated above, composers are usually on films for six to eight weeks. Howard Shore, himself, said, "When I’ve finished everything, you know, with the extended cut of Return of the King, it will be four years." (2.)

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The movies may be over, but the music goes on: The Lord of the Rings Symphony

"I think I started in the summer of 2000 with a trip to Wellington, and I started thematic materials in December . . . I think that research process took six months, but it was four months into it that I actually started to write pieces of music down on paper. I think I started on Dwarrowdelf first, and then I worked on Hobbiton. I wrote a few pieces in Moria, and then I worked on a theme for Hobbiton. I wasn’t scoring the film yet, but I was writing little pieces based on feelings that I had about those worlds." (10.)

"I go through a process of assimilation. I do a lot of research before I do any project, whether it’s a film like Naked Lunch or even films like Ed Wood, which required quite a bit of research to really try to capture the feeling of those worlds. Now, you’re looking at J.R.R. Tolkien and a much grander work that any of the ones I just mentioned, and of considerably more depth and complexity. You want to absorb the work almost totally. You want to work yourself inside of the piece. I do that by a lot of reading of other pieces I love. I studied ring mythology and other books about it." (10.)

"The book was always opened on my desk. As I was writing, I would reread a section, and watch Peter’s imagery and watch the actors, and then I would start to create pieces away from the film. I looked at pieces that might have influenced J.R.R. Tolkien when he was writing The Lord of the Rings. Then I looked at what had happened to culture and mythology after he wrote and published The Lord of the Rings. What had happened in the last 50 years since the publication of those books – not just in film, but in literature, music, and art? That was my studying" (10.)

According to Howard Shore, "Philippa, Fran, and Peter wrote the screenplay. The music, if you can take it one step further, is somewhat part of the screenplay. It’s part of the dramatic feeling – the music is part of the ‘life’ of the piece. They invited me, as a writer, to collaborate with them – the screenwriters – that was a wonderful thing to do. It doesn’t happen all that often on other films." (10.) "To be able to work with Peter as a collaborative filmmaker is a fantastic bonus for me because you are getting his input from the story telling aspect of it. You’re creating the imagery in it in music, so you’re both sort of working together to tell the story." (11.)

"Is music composed with (a) collaborative model of better quality than music composed solely by a trained composer? In the world of classical music and commissions and grants given to composers, that might be a relevant question. But with film score, the question of better really means: is it better for the film in the opinion of the director?

"How can composers be more collaborative in their composing? One way is to look for more ways to involve the director in the score creation process. By offering choices and options at various points during the composing process, whether the choices are logistical (choice of instruments), stylistic (choice of styles and genres) or actually involve choices among melodies, themes and other musical elements, choices give a filmmaker more of a role in the composing process, and today’s hands-on, digitally-equipped filmmakers clearly want more of a role." (12.) As Howard Shore agrees in The Lord of the Rings Fan Magazine, "The music was presented to Peter, Fran and Philippa several different ways. "Sometimes, it was just on keyboards or piano; sometimes it was mocked up, I would write the score in pencil, and then I would take the sketches that I was writing and mock those up and look at them against the picture in almost a storyboard kind of sense. We would look at it and discuss thematic material – you know, ‘Could we use this theme here? Is this a good point to use this theme? ...’ Those were the kinds of things we discussed." (10.)

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As Barry Osborne noted, "Peter and Fran were very clear that they wanted someone that would collaborate with them, that would be willing to invest the time to develop themes and to help us even in production." Howard Shore said, "He (Peter Jackson) might not be a musician in the traditional sense, but, I mean, he has a very, very good understanding of how to use music in a film and how to use it emotionally and dramatically and pacing. I mean, I think he has a fantastic sense of it." (2)

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Peter Broucek: "Peter loves his hit and wants to hear more of it."
The Two Towers, Extended Edition, Appendices disk 4, "Music for Middle Earth"


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London Symphony Orchestra, producers and technicians

As every TORn-sib knows (except perhaps some new ones), everything you could possibly want to know about the music from The Lord of the Rings can be found at Magpie’s website. She has kindly given me permission to include a link to it here and it is more than worth your while to check it out (thank you Magpie):
geocities.com/magpie930

Here are some more links for more information.

filmsound.org

musicfromthemovies.com

scorereviews.com

woodzie.org/lotr/

Are there any movie scores that you are particularly fond of? Do you own any?

Is there a particular theme or music (including vocals) in a particular scene in LOTR that is your absolute favorite? Is there anything you didn’t like?

When Fellowship first came out, it seems to me that there was some sort of controversy about Enya being part of it. Do you remember what that was all about?

The Lord of the Rings
was composed as an opera. Should The Hobbit be written as an opera? Could it be?

Should the Shire theme and the Rivendell theme from LOTR be used in The Hobbit?

Is there any aspect of movie scoring in general or for LOTR that I haven’t brought up that you would like to talk about?

Sources:

1. inpoint.org
2. Fellowship of the Ring, Theatrical Edition, Appendices 2, "Music for Middle Earth"
3. query_nytimes.com
4. Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace, Special Features disk, Web Documentary #12, Music.
5. Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, Special Features disk, "Within a Minute: the Making of Episode III," Score.
6. Fellowship of the Ring, Theatrical Edition, Appendices 2, "Music for Middle Earth"
7. Peter Jackson, A Film-Maker’s Journey by Brian Sibley, pg. 425
8. filmreference.com
9. The Two Towers, Extended Edition, Appendices disk 4, "Music for Middle Earth"
10. The Lord of the Rings Fan Club Official Movie Magazine, Issue No. 5, pg. 40-49
11. The Two Towers, Extended Edition, Appendices disk 4, "Music for Middle Earth"
12. filmmusicmag.com
 
Before I begin rambling randomly, I'll take a shot at your questions and see if my thoughts can rather be organized under them. So...

Are there any movie scores that you are particularly fond of? Do you own any?

No. I'm not a fan of movie scores in general. When I watch movies, I do come away with a memory of some tunes in my head, but I've never been compelled to purchase a soundtrack, nor listen to it repeatedly. Examples would be the "humming tune" tune in Pan's Labyrinth which I watched when GDT's name first sprang up for The Hobbit project - that piece of music is very haunting. Another example would be the violin music in M.Night Shyamalan's The Village which is just simply a beautiful piece of music. However, I haven't purchased the soundtracks, and don't intend doing so. More than the melody, the music should speak to me at an emotional level, and Howard Shore's score for LOTR did just that. And being a movie firster, I was drawn into the music a lot more when I finally read the books and began realizing how intricately the score was conceived. So really the only soundtrack I own is of the LOTR trilogy - in fact, I'm crazy enough to have every edition of the OSTs that was released and of course, the Complete Recordings as well.

Is there a particular theme or music (including vocals) in a particular scene in LOTR that is your absolute favorite? Is there anything you didn’t like?

My friend asked me that question, and keeps asking it to me because I can never come up with an answer [:)] The point is, as I said, the music "speaks" to me. I've been through a lot in the years that I've listened to LOTR's score, and therefore, I've empathized with different thematic notions at different points in time, which is why I can't pick a favourite, or a list of favourites. It's also the reason why I don't listen to favourite tracks. If I pop in the CD, I listen to the story, from beginning to end (not continuously of course). So for me, listening to this music is really like reading the book.

As far as what I didn't like, well, I'll be honest. Yes, there were some things I "didn't like". But it had more to do with me than with the music. It so happened that when I listened to TTT:CR, I realized there were pieces of music that weren't in the movies, I had no idea where they belonged, and when listening to the music, was lost since there was no narrative thread to take me along. It was like listening to any random piece of movie scoring. The moment I began delving into the details, reading Doug's notes, understanding the themes, figuring out what scenes these unused bits of music were composed for, I began to appreciate them. So there's really nothing I didn't like since the music has long since grown on me.

When Fellowship first came out, it seems to me that there was some sort of controversy about Enya being part of it. Do you remember what that was all about?

No I don't. Is this because people felt she, as an artist, and her single "May It Be", were promoted more than the FOTR:OST? I'm not sure, but that's what I've heard anyway when I scoured the net for those limited editions of the soundtracks that are now hard to find.

The Lord of the Rings
was composed as an opera. Should The Hobbit be written as an opera? Could it be?

I wholeheartedly think The Hobbit should be composed as an opera as well. And if Howard Shore composes, I have no doubt it will. Could it be? Yes. I think LOTR worked as an opera was because the music was a journey of many resolutions, and the arc from the simple Shire to the greatest events of Middle-earth were narrated thematically - the themes began as their own entities that, as the story progressed, interleaved with each other and culminated in a eucatastrophy. These strengths of LOTR as an opera lie in the tale of The Hobbit too. It is a Hobbit's journey of self-discovery and coming of age. The story arc is in place, the music simply needs to be woven about it.

Should the Shire theme and the Rivendell theme from LOTR be used in The Hobbit?

Seeing as the Sire will be portrayed as a "Golden Age", to use the words of GDT, I think it will be handled with a different thematic notion than in LOTR. (Note that even in LOTR, the Shire has 5 "Settings", a theme for "A Hobbit's Understanding", "Merry the Warrior", and "The Shire Reborn", together with an additional 5 "Accompaniments"). For The Hobbit, Shore could very well conceive a new "setting", or depending on how much of a role the Shire plays in the narrative, he could simply employ Hobbit-like harmonies using the specific instruments established for the Shire. Either way, I can't wait [tongue]

However, what I am looking forward to is Bilbo's Song, which can be heard during the ROTK:EE fan credits, and as the last track on the ROTK:CR. Doug once said that if they ever did The Hobbit, they'd probably find a clever way of re-introducing it.

By the way, did you know how that song was written? Doug said:

"Yes, he [Shore] wrote that beautiful, beautiful theme… it’s the absolutely final variation on the Shire material and it could turn a stone-hearted cynic into a poet. I remember getting a call from London during the ROTK DVD recording sessions. They had a few questions for me regarding fan scroll music, and mentioned at the time, “Oh, Howard wrote one more song for the boys.” I was shocked, because he wasn’t in the practice of writing new pieces for the credits. “He just felt like he should.” How great is that?

You can read that under the "Creating the Complete Recordings" section for "The Return of the King" (see links below).

Is there any aspect of movie scoring in general or for LOTR that I haven’t brought up that you would like to talk about?

Nothing specific that I'd bring up, but on my site The House Of Eorl, I've collated Doug Adams' writings from the Movie Music message boards over the past 3 years. You can find these on the "Creating the Complete Recordings" page. While those pages talk about how the Complete Recordings developed over the past years, there's also information there on how Shore scored the music back during production, and how post-production influenced Shore's written compositions.

It makes for quite a bit of reading, but it's worthwhile to spend time there on a rainy day. I do so anyway. Theres something about revisiting anything LOTR when it's raining outside [;)]
 
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"If we step back and think about it, music is one of the most peculiar conventions in movies. No one questions that music should be a part of movies because we’ve all grown used to the idea that, in a movie, when two people kiss, we should hear music in the background. Or when the platoon attacks the beach, a symphony should provide the inspiration behind their assault. Of course, no one has a soundtrack accompanying their real lives. But in movies we not only accept this convention, we demand it."

And to think early movie makers were reluctant to use non-diegetic music in film because they were afraid that audiences would wonder where the music was coming from. Whenever they did use music they made sure that there was an orchestra somewhere in the scene.


Are there any movie scores that you are particularly fond of?

Lola Rennt
Dr. Zhivago
The Third Man
The Ipcress File
Never on Sunday
You Only Live Twice
The Magnificent Seven


Do you own any?

Bunches. Mostly on vinyl.


Is there a particular theme or music (including vocals) in a particular scene in LOTR that is your absolute favorite?

Dwarrowdelf.


Is there anything you didn’t like?

Gollum’s Theme. Sounded like a really bad song from a James Bond movie.


When Fellowship first came out, it seems to me that there was some sort of controversy about Enya being part of it. Do you remember what that was all about?

You mean like:

“There’s a fell voice on the air!!”
“It’s Enya!!”

Some people thought she was too commercial, too Celtic, too mainstream, and/or too “girly”.

I like her myself.


The Lord of the Rings was composed as an opera. Should The Hobbit be written as an opera?

Why not?


Could it be?

Sure. It could be a comic opera. (A "comic opera" is where only one or two of the characters die.)


Should the Shire theme and the Rivendell theme from LOTR be used in The Hobbit?

I’d like them to be drastically changed so they’re unrecognizable at first. Like, say, the way Shore did the Lorien theme at Helm’s Deep.


Is there any aspect of movie scoring in general or for LOTR that I haven’t brought up that you would like to talk about?

It’s interesting that Spielberg edited the chase sequence in “E.T.” (1982) to match Williams’ musical score.

Ennio Morricone wrote the entire score for “Once Upon a Time In the West” (1968) before the film was even in production. Sergio Leone shot and edited the film to fit the music.
 
I gather that you think the score for LOTR is somehow different from other movie scores[;)] I agree with you wholeheartedly! It is on an entirely different level in so many ways. It is, musically, the story. It's interesting that you were drawn into the music even more after reading the books.

I can hardly wait to hear what is going to be done for The Hobbit. I would be willing to bet that it will be operatic, but the difference should be fascinating.

I didn't know how Bilbo's Song came about. "He just felt like he should." I love it!

Thanks for the link to The House of Eorl. What a terrific site. I wish that I had thought to ask you if I could have added a link in my post. Rats!
 
And to think early movie makers were reluctant to use non-diegetic music in film because they were afraid that audiences would wonder where the music was coming from.

That reminds me of Andrew Lesnie saying that the lighting was coming from the same place as the music.

All of my movie scores are on vinyl, except for LOTR. I had the score of Forbidden Planet on vinyl and I left it in the back window of my car on a sunny day. I don't have that one anymore.

Gollum's Theme sounded like a readdy bad song from a James Bond movie? Strange, that's exactly what I said. I wonder how many other people thought it sounded like James Bond.

I was a bit mystified about the complaints over Enya. I had always thought that she would be perfect for LOTR and so was pleasantly surprised when they used her.

Fascinating information about Spielberg and Ennio Morricone. I didn't know either of those things. I wonder what Morricone's inspiration for the music was?
 
Once again, I can' thank you enough for the love and care and knowledge you put into this. This is a fabulous post and I hope it doesn't get too eclipsed by the Hobbit news, as it's worthy of much discussion!

I loved the line from Howard Shore that you quoted, and which I put in my subject line. I've never written music, but I do write grants and even though it's only business writing, my best writing comes at the point where I'm able to totally "get" what the organization is all about, in order to tell their story in a way that will get them funding. You have to know who started it, its history, its culture, its people, for the writing to feel right and work. So I "think" I have a sense of what Howard Shore is talking about here.

From your posts, I have learned that lighting can be used as "visual punctuation" (was that the term?) -- now, I'm thinking that music is the "emotional punctuation" -- it guides us in terms of what the film makers want us to "feel" at any given time. In these films, the score never felt jarring or out place, and I do think it helped me and newcomers to the tale especially to be in exactly the right place, emotionally, when viewing the films.

The trailers used different music, and there was one fan trailer for ROTK I think that used Carmina Burana (sp?). In both cases, for me, there's a very different effect, I think, and not as good to my mind. People comment a lot about preferring some of the spoken dialogue in the trailers to that which was used in the actual films (Aragorn's Black Gate speech comes to mind) -- but now you have me wondering if that's not just due to the actor, but to the trailer music being more "emotionally concentrated" than the film score... What I mean is, in a trailer you only have a few minutes to tell a whole story, so it's sort of over the top in terms of packing an emotional punch. And so the words sound better because our emotions are in full throttle, based on the music cues we're hearing as well. Hmmm...

In terms of soundtracks, you and I must respond to music similiarly, as the scores that I remember having an impact on me are the same ones you mentioned -- 2001, Star Wars, Star Trek, and yep, I can still hum the theme songs (both of them!) from Lost in Space. Either that, or we don't see many films! Another score I really like is Ennio Morricone's from The Red Tent, which I learned about from the same friend who introduced me to Tolkien. Great film and great score if you haven't seen it -- I bet you'd like it. If Howard Shore couldn't do the Hobbit, M. would be my next choice...

I was lucky enough to have been able to see Howard Shore conduct the LOTR Symphony in Montreal. It's a totally different way to experience the music, as you get the "completeness" of it more, and without the studio ability to "turn up" or "down" one instrument over the other for effect, you get to pick and choose what you listen to more.

I have so many favorite pieces from the films -- but I particularly like the way the Shire theme is developed throughout the three films. I remember listening to a music critic being interviewed about the Soundtracks that were nominated for Oscars the year that ROTK was in the running. He played the first and last versions of the Shire theme, and said "and this is why this film will win." It was a very powerful demonstration of Shore's abilities.

I really enjoyed this post, thank you!
 
I seem to fluctuate between having not much to say... or too much. This one is definitely an Ent post for me. I'm going to address OH's initial post and then read other people's responses. I think if I read them all first, I'd be overwhelmed with too much in my head! Indented items are quotes from OH's post.

I have long thought that it would be an interesting exercise to take a movie, maybe a short film, and have music created for it by several different composers. I think that the same movie would feel completely different each time.
Well, if we could our hands on Shore's score to King Kong, we could put this to a test!

The first time that a movie sound track caught my attention, and the first one that I ever bought, was 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I saw 2001 at the Bijou theater in Battle Creek, Michigan in 1968. It blew me away! I stumbled out of that theater into the sunlight and didn't know quite where I was, what I should be doing, or why that shrill woman kept screaming at me (it was my mother who was picking us up... the movie ran later than she expected and she had to wait for us and was mad.) I don't know how quickly I bought the soundtrack but I think pretty quickly. I also went on to buy soundtracks to other Kubrick films, "Barry Lyndon" and "Clockwork Orange". It's interesting to think how long I've been fascinated with soundtracks. (I also remember seeking out the soundtrack to Franco Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet. I had to go look up release dates to be sure. It was released 6 months after 2001 so it must have been my second.) Before we leave 2001, another soundtrack fan, Michael McLennan, compared the combination of music, voices and sound effects in the Dead Marshes to György Ligeti' s work and I immediately agreed with him. I was familiar with Ligeti from 2001, of course. If anyone wants more on this point, they can go HERE.

Much of the background of the movie scoring for LOTR was new to me, OH. It was really interesting to read. This caught my eye:

Howard turned out to be perfect. He devoted himself to it slavishly ... he worked virtually full time on The Lord of the Rings for three years. Unbelievable. He was as obsessed as we were!"
This is an aspect that has fascinated me. I understand passionate obsession. I get like this and I know I look slightly mad to people around me. I look slightly mad to myself sometimes, especially since the things I got passionate about were rarely things I *had* to do. They were often hobbies... or taking my work obligations way beyond any expectation. I thought about it a lot. Was I crazy? Should I really allow myself to devote hours and hours a day? (I would often work on creative projects well into the night... I would spend up to 15-20 hours on a weekend developing and organizing teaching materials when my directive was to "read books to kids". That was it. I could have shown up with a book and read and not done one thing more and no one would ever have questioned. What I did went insanely past 'reading books to kids') I decided that all these things that I threw myself into really helped me develop skills and knowledge that could prove useful in other ways. It allowed me to do remarkable things. I decided that I did have, perhaps, a touch of obsessive personality coupled with a drive for perfection and a propensity for organizing and sorting. What I needed to do on a continual basis was to ask: Is this working for me or against me. Is my life being enhanced by my current obsession... or is it being harmed. By testing this benchmark out pretty continually, I hope to keep myself as sane as I can.

So when I read about Tolkien's drive to write and rewrite and rewrite LOTR (and develop the world of Middle-earth). I understand and I am soothed that there is someone else like me. When I watch the extras on the DVDs and see how hard people worked on the films, I understand and am soothed that there are others like me. And when I hear the crack in Howard's voice when he says, "And at some point, I’m sure there were loved ones saying, 'Maybe we should take Howard away from Tolkien for a little while because he’s seems a little obsessed by it.' But that was the kind of a joy of it.", I understand and I am soothed and my heart warms to him in a way that is dear. This is a man like me. I suspect I share these attributes with Tolkien but Howard seems more accessible. If I can touch him... if he is real... then perhaps I'm not a crazy aberration of nature. I am not alone.

As for your questions:
Are there any movie scores that you are particularly fond of? Do you own any?
I own a lot of movie scores. I also own a lot of soundtracks. What's the difference? Soundtracks tend to refer to collections of music by various artists that seem to fit the mood of the movie. Scores are original music written specifically for that movie.

Scores I listen to with joy (some are more challenging and I appreciate.. but they're not recreational listening for me) are (in no particular order):
  • LOTR - all three...
  • The Fountain - current favorite
  • Braveheart
  • Master and Commander (a mix of original and classical pieces)
  • Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (I have Sorcerer's Stone as well but don't listen to it much)
  • Serenity
  • Battlestar Galactica - the reimagined series
  • LOST - I like it as a backdrop to the action... I'm not completely fond of recreational listening to it.
  • Pirates of the Caribbean
  • World of Warcraft (game) - my son turned me on to this and I love it.
  • Star Wars - I own ROTS and some compilation discs
  • Pride and Prejudice - the Kiera Knightly version
  • Princess Bride
Scores I enjoy parts of:
  • Fifth Element
  • Nightmare Before Christmas
  • Last of the Mohicans
Soundtracks I like:
  • Barry Lyndon
  • 2001: A Space Odyssey
  • Clockwork Orange
  • Oh Brother Where Art Thou
  • Moulin Rouge
  • Elizabeth (uses a lot of classical music)
  • 28 Days Later (the last few tracks are ethereal - Ave Maria, a requiem from Favre, and a Brian Eno piece)

Is there a particular theme or music (including vocals) in a particular scene in LOTR that is your absolute favorite? Is there anything you didn’t like?
wow... can I find a favorite... let alone 'absolute' favorite. If I say 'no' is that taken to mean nothing rises to favorite? No, it means how can one choose. Even a list of 'favored' pieces would be too long, I fear. Let me grab the ones that bob up to my consciousness first and leave it at that. It is an intuitive process and should not be taken as a definite list of what I like or don't like.
  • I like choral/vocal music very much: Wood Elves, Haldir's wounding, Hymn for Gandalf (outside Moria) come to mind quickly - next to bob up: Renee's stuff in ROTK.
  • I adore - absolutely adore - Sissel's piece and Bilbo's Song. And for me, they work best together as heard in the ROTK Fan Club Scroll... as opposed to split as they are in the CR-ROTK.
  • I'm a pretty big fan of all the music associated with Boromir's wounding and death and of the music heard after the destruction of the Ring... as Frodo and Sam stumble out of the mountain and wait for the end of all things.
  • I get a taste like nasty medicine in my mouth when Liv sings in the Houses of Healing.
  • I'm not a big fan of the less structured music, i.e. the Ent stuff, Shelob, Watcher in the Water. I don't mind the use of aleatory in small doses, but prolonged use is less appealing. Mind you, I'm really talking about recreational listening, here. I think it probably worked fine in the movie. The music usually drifts to the background for me when watching the movies.
  • I'm also not a big fan of the battle or contentious scenes music in general.
  • But, having said that, one piece surprised me when I listened to it on the CR-ROTK. The music leading up to the destruction of the Ring was one piece of 'contentious' music I did like (when listening to the OST). I spoke about it on my website HERE. But the OST doesn't have it all. When I was able to first get a listen to some CR-ROTK tracks, the music heard as the Barad-dur falls blew me away. If you don't have the CR-ROTK, you can hear samples (long samples... pretty much full track samples...) HERE. The music I'm talking about is in HOUR TWO, SUITE #4, The Crack of Doom.

When Fellowship first came out, it seems to me that there was some sort of controversy about Enya being part of it. Do you remember what that was all about?
No... I wasn't part of the online community then. In retrospect, I love Enya but she was a bad choice, IMO, for this project. I also don't completely approve/accept Into the West's place in the movies. Ever the oddball... I love Gollum's Song and think it fits perfectly.

Should the Shire theme and the Rivendell theme from LOTR be used in The Hobbit?
I'm in the process of examining the themes in ROTK. Although I knew the themes were changing and morphing and mixing with each other, I had no idea to what extent. They are maturing... mutating to such an extent that they're not easily recognizable. You don't realize (or I didn't) that you're listening to a variant of the Shire here... or Sauron's theme there. But the work as a whole has integrity. It works subliminally to connect you to the innocence of the Shire or the pervasive evil of Mordor.

I want Shore to connect his music for The Hobbit to LOTR in a subliminal way but not an overt way. I don't really want to hear the Shire Theme used - at least to the extent it is in LOTR. Maybe a recognizable glimpse now and then, but not more than once or twice. But instead, I hope he finds ways (like through note progression, or instruments, or keys/modes) to connect the music together without using melody. I think he's capable of this. I think he'll want the challenge to do it like this. I think he will do it. (But all my calls about Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was wrong so, we'll see.)

Is there any aspect of movie scoring in general or for LOTR that I haven’t brought up that you would like to talk about?
Not today, LOL. I've said enough. I will say that it is in the back of mind to retry a regular music discussion. I won't be ready to even consider it until my work with ROTK is done (and that is months off). But my appreciation and respect for the body of work just grows as I plug away at it. And Doug's book will be coming out late fall. Perhaps there will be some interest in exploring the music more on the boards.

Thanks, OH. Good review of this aspect of post production.

 
I'm currently taking piano lessons, and I'm at the Grade 6 level. Ever since I started taking lessons, I've had a better perspective on music: writing it, listening to it, its details, etc. LOTR is definitly one of my favorite soundtracks (I'm hoping to get the complete recordings sometime). Though I haven't written music for an entire orchestra, I've written short pieces that are very basic, but sound very good. Sometimes I wonder what it's like to be a composer, being able to write music, and then see it being beautifully performed before your eyes, and then listening to it on the big screen. Like I said, I've written music, but it's nothing that compares to this. Perhaps one day I'll know what it's like though.

Gee, I should get thinking of where my expertise in film will be. [laugh]
 
I decided that I did have, perhaps, a touch of obsessive personality coupled with a drive for perfection and a propensity for organizing and sorting. . .If I can touch him... if he is real... then perhaps I'm not a crazy aberration of nature. I am not alone.

I don't think you are alone on THESE boards. If you think back over this series of posts, you may recognize a fellow "obsessive personality coupled with a drive for perfection." Having been married to one for over 20 years, I noticed the similarity right away!!
 
There are quite a few people who make me feel no alone. N.E. can do it anytime. You guys give me a run in the 'complete' approach, as well. It's one of the things I like about this place. I'm not so weird here. *grin*

But there's still a bit of soft spot in my heart for Howard.
 
That's perfect to display not only the power of the music, but how a description/direction can affect a scene when the composers use iconic music. We, the audience, have been trained to expect certain types of music for certain plot-lines and emotions. You can always tell when someone's about to get shot or kiss or gird themselve for a dramatic, heroic action. I like to be surprised :)


"[Howard Shore] worked virtually full time on The Lord of the Rings for three years. Unbelievable. He was as obsessed as we were!"

"...I started on Dwarrowdelf first, and then I worked on Hobbiton. I wrote a few pieces in Moria, and then I worked on a theme for Hobbiton. I wasn’t scoring the film yet, but I was writing little pieces based on feelings that I had about those worlds."


*tears form* I still have trouble getting my head around the beautiful devotion of these people. A living dream.

*leaves for a while and comes back*

I have to tell you, OhioHobbit, that I'm overwhelmed by your Tech Posts. It takes me a long time to get through them as I follow the links and linger on the incredible depth. I really cherish these. Thank you so much for these brilliant studies. *applause*

=-=-=

**Are there any movie scores that you are particularly fond of? Do you own any?
I have and completely enjoy the soundtrack for Rudy. There are a few of the songs that remind me of Middle-earth. One puts into my mind the vision of the hobbits coming home; approaching Hobbiton from above on the hill, riding faster as they get closer until the reach the crest and look down on the Green Dragon and the townsfolk milling about.

I also have High Fidelity; Star Wars; Stranger Than Fiction; Harry Potter;Forrest Gump; The Big Chill; I built one for The Bumblebee Flies Anyway; Elizabethtown; King Kong;Pirates of the Caribbean I;quite a few others I can't think of right now; and, of course, The Lord of the Rings.


**Is there a particular theme or music (including vocals) in a particular scene in LOTR that is your absolute favorite? Is there anything you didn’t like?

Oh cripes, so many just stop my heart. I'm the most overwhelmed with the music with Frodo and Sam above the lava flow... "I can see the Shire..."; Arwen's vision of Aragorn and Eldarion; Dwarrowdelf; Light of the Beacons... and the end credits for RotK still keep me bawling... those last, closing notes... omg


**When Fellowship first came out, it seems to me that there was some sort of controversy about Enya being part of it. Do you remember what that was all about?

No. Just that she had a very established style of her own, and how that would fit. Seems to be the ongoing concern with any talent brought into these stories ;)


**The Lord of the Rings
was composed as an opera. Should The Hobbit be written as an opera? Could it be?

With Shore involved, I think it would be completely appropriate to have the scores/music for these 2 films as a continuation of Shore's opera. Absolutely! This music comes FROM him... his soul. The films would be diminished without Shore's music.


**Should the Shire theme and the Rivendell theme from LOTR be used in The Hobbit?

Oh Yes! I'm counting on it! I want that snippet of exclusive music when Gandalf looks at the map of the Lonely Mountain in Bag End.


**Is there any aspect of movie scoring in general or for LOTR that I haven’t brought up that you would like to talk about?

Oh, I have recovered from this yet. :)


Isn't Magpie's site incredible!? What a genius site!


Thanks again, OhioHobbit.

 
You know, I love it when someone can relate these things to what they do. I think that you do have a sense of what Howard Shore is talking about. I would compare the story of LOTR to what a particular grant is about. You could just stick to that and Howard Shore could have just stuck to the story. But, just as you do your best writing when you’re able to “get” what the organization is all about, Howard Shore wanted to find out what Tolkien was all about. That is why he did so much research into things like what the culture was like that Tolkien lived in, the things that he was interested in, and the things that might have influenced what he wrote. He was able to get inside of LOTR by getting inside of Tolkien.

I think that you may be on to something about the trailer music. One thing that I have learned in doing these posts is that there is very little that is just left to chance. It seems that every little detail is thought out for its subconscious effect. It reminds me of the psychology of stocking store shelves. This is what you see when you first walk in, this is what is at eye level, this is what is high, this is what is low, and these are the things that go together. It’s all thought out.

There does seem to be a pattern to what soundtracks you and I like. As you say, maybe we don’t see very many films, or maybe most of the films that we do see are science fiction. [;)] I will keep an eye out for The Red Tent.

I would dearly love to go to a Howard Shore concert. There was one in Ohio once, but we weren’t able to go. It was most frustrating! Maybe someday.

The Shire theme is definitely my favorite. I usually find myself humming it when I am working in the garden. It just seems appropriate. [:)]

I am so glad that you have been enjoying these technical discussions. I have had a lot of fun doing this. There is only one more left to do. Next week’s post “The Final Mix” is the final one.

Thanks weaver!
 
Wouldn’t it be great if we could actually see (and hear) both versions of King Kong? It would be terrific for a film school.

That is a fasinating comparison between the score for the Dead Marshes and Gyorgy Ligeti’s work. That had never occurred to me.

When I watch the extras on the DVDs and see how hard people worked on the films, I understand and am soothed that there are others like me.

I am a bit of an obsessive perfectionist myself and I also get a degree of comfort from watching the extras. The only problem is that it makes me want to associate with people like that. It would be so nice to work with people that are passionate about something or have a conversation with someone whose interests go a little beyond high school sports. That is what is so great about TORN! [:)]

The music leading up to the destruction of the Ring was one piece of ‘contentious’ music I did like (when listening to the OST).

I was completely blown away by that. I was a little disappointed by the “final battle”, but the music made up for it. Fantastic!

In retrospect, I love Enya but she was a bad choice, IMO, for this project.

But you didn’t say why. I am really curious as to your thoughts about this.

Although I knew he themes were changing and morphing and mixing with each other, I had no idea to what extent.

You know better than anyone, Magpie, and I am just beginning to get a glimpse. The music is like everything else in these movies. The intricacy just keeps going deeper and deeper.

I think that a regular music discussion is a great idea! You have my vote. And Doug’s book coming out is something to look forward to.
 
Not being able to sit down and invent music out of thin air myself, I am amazed by people who can. I wonder how Howard Shore felt the first time he did a LOTR concert and got a standing ovation? That would have to be fantastic!

Gee, I should get thinking where my expertise in film will be.

When Peter Jackson started out he did it all. [;)]
 
Say it isn't so!

I'll really miss these. You and Alcarcalime have certainly earned you stars in Tolkien-heaven!

You know, when you started these I remember you saying that they would be a good lead up to the Hobbit...YOU WERE RIGHT!
 
You can always tell when someone’s about to get shot or kiss or gird themselves for a dramatic, heroic action. I like to be surprised.

I always find it humorous when the dramatic music starts before anything is going on and usually say “Ooooh, something bad is about to happen!” [;)]

Wouldn’t you love to see King Kong with Howard Shore’s music just to see if the movie would feel different?

I still have trouble getting my head around the beautiful devotion of these people.

You know, I don’t think anything like this has ever happened in filmmaking before. So many people completely devoted to what they were working on. So many people who wanted to work on these films because what they were. This wasn’t just another movie or just another job, this was The Lord of the Rings! It was like building a cathedral. Back in my day we would have called it a happening.

In your list of favorite LOTR music you brought up Arwen’s vision of Aragorn and Eldarion. I hadn’t really thought about one. That is a very good one.

It is going to be interesting to see (hear) what is done with The Hobbit. I remember in the first Star Trek movie when they played just a little piece of the theme from the TV show. I got goose bumps!

Yes Magpie’s site is absolutely fantastic! And another great site is The House Of Eorl.

Thank you so much for the kind words gramma! I really appreciate it. As I was telling weaver, there is just one more post to go.
 
In retrospect, I love Enya but she was a bad choice, IMO, for this project.

But you didn’t say why. I am really curious as to your thoughts about this.

Well, I went through a phase where Enya was like a drug to me. I listened to her pretty exclusively to anything else and she got me through some pretty hard times. I mostly think she is perfection. That is, I don't know if she could do anything differently with her body of work that would make me like her more.

But that also meant that hearing her distinctive voice/style in the movies kind of jerked me out of Middle-earth and back to my living room, listening with headphones on and a brandy in hand.

Additionally, there was something about May It Be... some moment in that song that really reminded me of another piece she had done. I kept expecting it to go somewhere else... as it had in that other song that I had listened to hundreds of times. I never identified the piece and I think it's lost to me now that May It Be is more entrenched in my mind that her other work.

It was written completely by Enya and Roma Ryan so there I'm not sure it meshes 100% successfully with Shore's writing. There are actually a couple of pieces that feel this way to me and he may actually have written some of them. I still think these things that don't feel right to me are not his or were heavily influenced by someone else. Sometimes we make compromises and negotiate a position. But if that's the case here, then I think a price was paid in continuity.

Also, I may let my right brain explore and enjoy the fantasy and creativity of the movie but the left brain is still there and active. One of my first ways of interacting with the movie was to try to figure out the lyrics so I could sing along. The lyrics to May It Be don't make sense to me... mostly in a grammatical way but even in a contextual way to some extent. Also, that summer of Tolkien obsession, 2002, I was simultaneously watching FOTR at my neighborhood theater on a weekly basis and reading (for the first time in 30 years) the books. When I got to ROTK and realized that all was not sweetness and light for Frodo, I had this constant Frodo-at-the Party figure to compare the wounded, broken Frodo to. But to the point, I knew that ROTK was when the real darkness came and here we were at the end of FOTR getting all dark alread (with Enya's lyrics). I felt it was too early. We don't know, at the end of FOTR, that it's going to get dark at all.

But mostly, at the end of all things, I don't think it served the movie well to try to have these pop songs sung by popular (well-known) singers to promote the movie. I mean, it probably did make marketing sense, but I'm not sure it served the tone of the movies. I waver between liking Into the West and not liking it. It works as a song but it doesn't serve my needs for that moment in the experience. When we watch the movies, we are immersed in Middle-earth. These songs try to serve a larger audience, many of whom are not immersed in the story or the world. Therefore it has to reach out in it's intent and it leaves that focused place where it started.

The one song that did work for me identifies me as the resident oddball: Gollum's Song. It was not done by a well-known (in the US anyhow) singer. The lyrics are completely true to the character. The delivery (in vocal style) of the lyrics is even true to the character. I love how Emiliano's voice changes as she moves from Smeagol to Gollum. The only complaint I might have is that perhaps in being true to the character of Gollum, it doesn't serve the movie as much. But I'd rather have the song err on the side of not expanding enough... to expanding so much it becomes another "Moon River" or "Somewhere My Love".

In the end, I don't hate either song, May It Be or Into the West. But they remain two moments (among more than a couple) when the movie fails to deliver in the same high way it does for the majority of the films.

an interesting postscript on using the music for marketing. During a recent update of my website, I decide to document the different editions/versions of the soundtrack. One of the things I did was to go back and look at all the online content available with each edition/movie. The online content for FOTR was centered almost completely on Enya and May It Be. The online content for TTT focused on movie characters and stills, making of the score, and lyrics. The online content for ROTK focused on movie stills and characters with the bonus DVD that came with the Special Edition Soundtrack focusing extensively on the Shore and his work.

That tells me that they thought Enya was the sell for FOTR but by the end, they realized they had an audience ready to accept the soundtrack itself. They didn't need a familiar face, only peripherally involved, to keep them interested.

When I journaled about my summer of Tolkien, I wrote that I feel in love with the movies and decided to reread the books. But because I enjoyed not knowing what was going to happen in the movie, I was only going to read FOTR and save TTT till after I'd seen the movies and the same for ROTK. But by time I finished my 2nd time through FOTR (what is there to do next if you're not moving on except read it again), it was no longer about the movies. The books had hold of me. Well, something similar happened with these soundtracks. It was no longer about the pop song at the end... it was about the real music of Middle-earth.

now... off to fix a broken link I found on one of those pages.
 
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