Many Partings II: "Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended..."

batik

batik

Tol Eressea
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1) A grand company travels from Minas Tirith to Edoras (July 19 to August 7), escorting Theoden to the land of his home. On August 10th, he is “laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things…”
What sorts of fair things were likely laid in the house of stone?
Does this practice exist today? Any examples?

2) We read of the minstrel, Gleowine, making a song of Theoden. Following this are the five lines:
“Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising
He rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
Over death, over dread, over doom lifted
Out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.”

(Of course this is very similar to the words Eomer sang in ‘The Battle of the Pelennor Fields”.)

Is this Theoden’s song? Or did we *hear* that in “The Muster of Rohan”?
(just a *few* lines…)
From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel’s son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
Hearth and high-seat, and hallowed places,
Where long he had feasted ere the light faded.
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
Fate before him. Fealty kept he;
Oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
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3) Both Aragorn and Eomer seem to “pass off” (or if you prefer, defer) the giving of gifts to the women, claiming they have no worthy gifts. Hmm. Any opinions on this?

Just a point of interest…
While reading through some of the past discussions of this chapter I came across one (pre -release of RotK) that addressed how, if at all, the parting of Elrond and Arwen might be filmed. Seemed that several were of the mind that this would very possibly be left out of the film-and right they were.

4) Bonus: What's a stirrup cup?
 
What sorts of fair things were likely laid in the house of stone?
I hope they remembered his toothbrush. [blush]
Just to compare - the Arkenstone was laid on Thorin's tomb; although not in it.
And the Barrow-downs had many rings, circlets and jewels in them.

Does this practice exist today? Any examples?
It might.
As an aside - Jewish Law strictly forbids this practice (not necessary for this discussion, but you never know what might interest the people in this room).

Is this Theoden’s song? Or did we *hear* that in “The Muster of Rohan”?
The index (who compiled it?) calls the song in 'The Muster of Rohan' "A Lament for Theoden", which implies they are the same.
However, this is called there 'Burial Song of Theoden'.
Go figure.

3) Both Aragorn and Eomer seem to “pass off” (or if you prefer, defer) the giving of gifts to the women, claiming they have no worthy gifts. Hmm. Any opinions on this?
Maybe this is a part of a Queen's function? Note that in The Mirror of Galadriel, the Lady says:
For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings.
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However, in Farewell to Lorien, it is she who brings the gifts with her, and gives them. At first, she speaks of "the gift of Celeborn and Galadriel to the leader of your Company", but then she adds something personal; and her gifts to Frodo, Sam and Gimli clearly are personal from her.
Theoden gave Shadowfax to Gandalf (well, queen Elfhild died in childbirth, so he had to!), Thorin gave Bilbo the mithril-coat, and Dain gave the necklace of Girion to the Elvenking. But I suspect dwarvish culture is different from that of Elves and Men, in this as well.

4) Bonus: What's a stirrup cup?
Let's quote 'The Siege of Gondor':
'Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,' said Denethor.
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o.k., two bad jokes might be too much for one post.[sorry] But the second was a bonus one.[evil]

Anyway, Eowyn offered Theoden (and Aragorn) a cup in The King of the Golden Hall, blessing his coming and going; and also Aragorn in The Passing of the Grey Company. In Farewell to Lorien, we also have 'the cup of farewell'.
 
re: that stirrup cup thing--
well, what I was really thinking---it's a *drinking and riding* issue ---which in the good ol US can result in a good ol' ticket and maybe jail [crazy]. But I suppose even though "they drank the stirrup cup...they departed" --no worries--who's going to ticket the King and Co.?

re: the toothbrush ...[tongue]
 
Uncle Baggins has long said he wants to be buried with his encyclopedia, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. (He also says he wants to be buried where the buffalo roam, with a pyramid over him. But in his more sensible moments he consents to the idea of having his ashes scattered at our family's spot in Rocky Mountain National Park).

A stirrup cup is a drink shared at parting, while standing near the horse's stirrup, I suppose, or maybe while already mounted. But I can't ever hear the expression without thinking of this song from Pogo:

I was stirring up
a stirrup cup
in a stolen sterling stein
when I chanced upon a ladle
who was once my valentine.
[Natural, this was the ladle I used to spoon with.]

“O whence that wince,
O wench”, quoth I.
She blushed and said “O sir;
My daddy's isn't stirring
since my momma’s been in stir”.
 
we are in the midst of many sad partings so "stolen sterling steins..." may help get us through this.
 
1) A grand company travels from Minas Tirith to Edoras (July 19 to August 7), escorting Theoden to the land of his home. On August 10th, he is “laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things…”
What sorts of fair things were likely laid in the house of stone?
Does this practice exist today? Any examples?

Actually, this is one of those few places in LotR in which the mortal races do something that does imply belief in some sort of afterlife (as I just said they didn't in another thread).

Numerous peoples have buried things in the tombs of people that they liked or valued in life, presumably to use in the afterlife. The Egyptians are most famous for this; this is why all the treasures of the Pharos were left with them under the Pyramids. But the characters don't otherwise act as if the afterlife is all that important, as if the afterlife even for those who are dead is dependent upon the mortal life. The Egyptians and other cultures had something like this also: you are in a sense still alive as long as people continue to speak your name. Thus, Eorl the Young faced a threat from Sauron in the War of the Ring; if Sauron had succeeded in wiping out the Rohirrim, then Eorl would have been forgotten, and truly be dead.

Of course, this is almost the only magic-like rite we see of the Rohirrim, and they give no other indication that they use or ever were able to use magic of any kind, unlike numerous other peoples. So their religion might be just superstition, unlike those of the Elves or Gondor or even the Woses.
 
Theoden saying "I go to my fathers"? Not a *rite* but an expression of his belief in...afterlife?
 
in my country too. Their beloved ones usually send with the dead favorite belongings of him/her, memories bought for him/her, photos, etc.

As about Theoden going to the halls of his fathers, it was a quite popular expression in Middle Ages. At least the history and mythology I have studied has lots of such statements. The halls, or the fields was also very widely used. And always of the fathers which is normal considering the masculine character of the culture at the time. And yes, it was part of the belief in life after death. There went those who earned a place next to the mighty kings and heroes. It is interesting that no matter what kind of king the father was, good or bad, successful or not, after dying he was always referred to as someone dwelling at the halls, i.e. a mighty one. It is also curious that women never used such expressions. It was something like "the path of the warrior" being a noble man that one. Tolkien is very precise here, almost quoting myths/legends, sayings, etc.
 
1) A grand company travels from Minas Tirith to Edoras (July 19 to August 7), escorting Theoden to the land of his home. On August 10th, he is “laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things…”
What sorts of fair things were likely laid in the house of stone?

Everything he might need in the next life, traditionally. As others have noted, we saw this in the barrow mounds and when Thorin was buried with the Arkenstone. We also saw grand burials in Minas Tirith. But Bombadil didn't seem to think much of the practice, instead laying the treasure out above ground, and taking some for Goldberry and the hobbits. So I don't think it really went with Theoden to the afterlife. The real Anglo-Saxons might have killed a few slaves to serve in the afterlife as well.

Does this practice exist today? Any examples?

Some people do get buried with stuff, but usually it's a token item or two. These days it's more common to bury time capsules in cornerstones, knowing that someone will uncover it in the future.

Is this Theoden’s song? Or did we *hear* that in “The Muster of Rohan”?

I think they may be part of the same song.

3) Both Aragorn and Eomer seem to “pass off” (or if you prefer, defer) the giving of gifts to the women, claiming they have no worthy gifts. Hmm. Any opinions on this?

I thought they begged off gifts to the hobbits, not the women. Am I missing something? And they did give something -- Frodo got his gem, and Merry got his horn. Tolkien implies that they would have refused anything more substantial or commercial, such as bags of gold. Even a cynic might call that a wise move -- after all, maybe it is better to have rich, royal friends who owe you whatever you wish than to get paid off with money like a mercenary. *In Godfather voice* "'Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me.'"

4) Bonus: What's a stirrup cup?

A cup of farewell among the Rohirrim, who are accustomed to saying farewell on horseback.
 
in my question. (I'm not gonna dispute anything remotely connected with the *godfather* voice!)
Where I intended to go with that was--- Aragorn says he has nothing worthy to give Frodo (similar to what Eomer says to Merry) but Arwen comes up with a tangiblegift-the white gem (similar to Eowyn giving Merry the horn). Frodo does at the minimum receive a nice set of threads and rides "in honor" (courtesy of Aragorn?) and Merry does receive seem to receive some type of honorary position in Rohan (courtesy of Eomer?)
 
I think this may be the influence of Beowulf, in which Queen Wealhþeow played the role of hostess, giving both drink and gifts to Beowulf. It's an important role, and not just a decorative element. The women kept the peace, and in Beowulf the Queen has many lines regarding peace and duty.

The women may also give the gifts in part to make it harder for the hobbits to refuse. These are not payments to mercenaries, but gifts from gracious hostesses.
 
Aunt Dora came the closest! From Jeffery Kacirk's Forgotten English:

"Stirrup-Cup: Cup of wine or other liquor handed to a seventeenth-century man on horseback before his departure from an inn, an activity which has since become known as "one for the road"...By the nineteenth century, the meaning of stirrup-cup was expanded to include the welcoming of a guest with a drink before his dismount, and was applied to the cup as well."
 
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