Lotr Discussion Schedule: Homeward Bound. All in one!

[Hamfast Gamgee]

Ok, I am going to do this one in one posting as it is a fairly short and fairly straightforward chapter to save bandwith and make reading the reading room page easy! Keep it easy, stupid! I shall also play it with a reasonably straight bat as not much strange happens here.

Synopsis:

The travelers make there way home from Rivendell to the Shire. On the way they pass Weathertop and Frodo feels the return of pain on October 6th. They reach Bree and have a little catch-up chat with Butterbur. Gandalf departs to meet Bombadil and they reach the Shire as the four Hobbits.

The return of pain.

I have always just thought it as assumed that Frodo feels pain on the anniversaries of his various wounds. One wonders why, though. Are there any cases of real-life wounds that become worse on their yearly anniversaries or is this purely a magical Tolkien thing?

They come back home to Bree on a wild, wet evening.

Charming weather they have on the outskirts of Bree don't they?

They meet Butterbur again. The curtain of the Prancing Pony are red

Nice bit of description of the Inn. I'll make a note of that!

They tell Butterbur what they have been doing but he is a bit overwhelmed.

One wonders if he ever found out. News of the events, 'Down South,' must have reached Bree eventually but how much attention did Butterbur pay to current affairs? Or was he in the 'One Hobbit alone with his servant set fire to Sauron's fortress,' school of thought?
In fact Butterbur seems more concerned with his own affairs. It's interesting that he doesn't pay too much concern with thousands dying in battles and sieges in foreign lands, but he knows the names and characters of all those that died in Bree. This reminds me a little of some of those reports on the news which used to say, 'A disaster in the third world, thousands dead, but no British casualties,' and any British casualties, however few elsewhere would always be dealt with more detail.

Finally Butterbur appreciates the Rangers.

I wonder if he does ever get to meet Strider again?

Butterbur doesn't want any outsiders near Bree.

That's a shame Mr. Butterbur because I'm an outsider and I have all of these pennies which I can spend in your hostiality. But if that's your attitiude I fear you might well say goodbye to those. And I don't suppose that Bree is going to enter the Northern ME Free Economic Zone with that kind of thinking either.

So long as he lets Bree alone.

Well, quite frankly, I think he thinks you smell as well. Especially Bob. Tolkien never mentioned Bobs strong body oder did he?

Sam discovers that Bill the Pony is still alive.

One, two, three Arrrrrrrr! I wonder how long Bill lived for? Is it possible that ME ponies actually have a longer life than ours do. Maybe Sam rode Bill when he became Mayor all of those times later on in his life. And Bill lived longer than any of us readers imagined.

Gandalf departs for Bombadil and leaves the Hobbits to themselves.

Would he meet Bombadil if Tom is in his more forgetful moods. And is this totally wise? Even though Sauron has passed there are still loose ends, such as Saruman that should be dealt with. Gandalf knows the Shire is in trouble. And some Hobbits are in danger. Could he have helped? Is his attitude now similair to that of the Valar in leaving ME to it's own devices all those ages ago? Or is the Shire one problem best solved by Hobbits themselves. Fire and Brimstone not been an option.
Well, that is it for now as Gandalf might say. Anything further anyone might add please do so here, naturally, feel free to raise any other points. Onto Scouring of the Shire.

 

[CuriousG]

Thanks, Hamfast!

From the way he wrote him, I think Butterbur was one of Tolkien's favorite characters, even when he makes fun of him. Certainly no one else comes close to his manner of speaking. He's down-to-earth like Farmer Cotton and Farmer Maggot, but about as silly as Bombadil. Okay, not that silly, but he's no serious Denethor either.

Tolkien seems to use Butterbur as a stereotypical small-minded person to represent the majority of Breelanders and Shire-folk. No interest in what goes on beyond his close borders, not wanting change, and not wanting strangers to settle nearby (who, as you point out, would improve his business, as well as make the wilderness less wild and dangerous). And of course he believes that whatever's happened to him is of the utmost importance so everyone else should think that too! I still find him enjoyable and like him, though if I met him in person I might think otherwise. Tolkien may mock him, but mostly he has fun with him.

Good point about Frodo's wounds having anniversaries. I know that happens with emotional/psychological events: people can become ill on the anniversary of the death of someone close to them. But if you were in a car accident on March 23, would you feel the pains again every year on that date? I'm not sure I've ever heard that before.

What do you think of "Gandalf's blessing" on the beer? To me it seems tongue-in-cheek, and while it seems another bit of Tolkien ambiguity to be debated, it just doesn't feel like the kind of magic that Gandalf practices. I wonder if other people perceive it as a real thing.

What do you suppose were the monsters that roamed the nearby woods after the Rangers departed? For them to show up so quickly after the Rangers left, they must have been fairly close, so how did the Rangers keep them at bay for so long that no one in Bree knew they existed?

I would so love to be a fly on the wall while Gandalf and Bombadil spoke! Bombadil showed a shrewd side when he spent a day talking with the hobbits about the past and when he took the Ring from Frodo. How much does he know of what's already happened in the outside world? Gandalf said he'd mainly be interested in stories of the Ents. Just how does Gandalf know Bombadil so well, the way he speaks of him here and at the Council of Elrond? Obviously from visiting him, but were his visits purely for rest from the world, or did he ever try to recruit Bombadil to be more active on the side of the good guys? Did he need anything from Tom, or vice versa?

Saruman is able to give a real zinger to Frodo when he says that Gandalf drops his tools when he has no more use for them, which is definitely what he seems to do when he somehow knows things are wrong in the Shire, and he knows in some detail. I would buy into what Gandalf says, that the hobbits are able to take care of themselves and no longer need him, that his role was to help people to take charge of their own safety, and he's accomplished that. But on an emotional level, I'm with the hobbits and would be dismayed that he left me to scour the Shire without him.

Does it seem odd that Gandalf rides with them from Rivendell on such a long journey, but only at the last minute tells them he won't go to the Shire with them? Isn't that something that would have been discussed much sooner? Is it something counter to "human" nature so that Tolkien can throw in some surprise when we're getting lulled into thinking there are no more surprises in the story?

One last question, which is cheating by jumping to the next chapter, but is a continuation of this line of thought: would other readers prefer that Gandalf had helped scour the Shire? While I say that if I were a hobbit, I would want Gandalf to help, as a reader, I do find it much more satisfying that the four hobbits accomplish it on their own. There is no Gandalf leading the charge to the door of Bag Eng to confront Saruman (yet again, *yawn*).

 

[CuriousG]

I should have added that Butterbur helps with the transition from all the great, big picture events the hobbits have been in (since they left Bree) back into the little country with its parochial views that they left behind. Had Tolkien written Butterbur to be a character who became more worldly because of recent events, it would have made the move back to the Shire more jarring. I think it's here that Merry begins to think that the dream is behind them, and Frodo feels like the real world is behind and the sleeping one is ahead. He can't go back to having a perspective like Butterbur's, especially when that wasn't his nature to begin with--he was the rare hobbit who wanted to know what was in those blank spots on maps showing what was beyond the Shire's boundaries.

 

[BallyWhooo]

I kind of like to think that one of the things that Gandalf shares with Bombadil is that he expects Frodo will choose the Grey Ship and that there is a plan laid out for him to be cured of his wounds. I suspect that Tom was very in tune/aware of the depths of evil of the Ring that Frodo had not yet really begun to understand when he hosted them in his home. I think he would have been relieved and very pleased to hear that Frodo was going to the Homeland, because I think Bombadil had very clear connections to the West, that he was at least a maia if not something much larger... or original, I guess is a better term for it. One of the first to exist in the cosmology Tolkien created. Think of it this way, too. If we assume that Bombadil and Goldberry are some form of angelic spirit or greater, then for all we know, the representation of Tom as a cantankerous, yellow-boot wearing woodsman and Goldberry's shimmering water daughter are just forms they choose to take in dealing with the hobbits and the environment around them. Kind of like George Burns in "Oh God," I suppose. He states in that movie that he appears to John Denver's character as an old man because that is a form that would not overwhelm and stun humans he visits personally (bad analogy but you get the point).

As far as Gandalf abandoning the hobbits, I hope not. I think Gandalf knew very well who was poking his ex-wizardly nose around Bag End, and I think as much as it was Frodo's fate to never lift a sword in battle again, it was Gandalf's fate not to defeat Saruman. He had already done his part in disabling Saruman, and there probably was even some taboo about the wizards exacting the "true death" on each other. From Tolkien's other writings we are left with the rumor that the two blue wizards went Eastward and fell under bad influences, but we do not hear anything about Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast hunting them down to try to reform, punish or dispatch them. No, I think Saruman was destined to die by his own evil. The deceit, disloyalty and violence he instilled in Wormtongue eventually was his undoing ("Evil will often evil mar." - Or something like that). From a novelistic standpoint, it seems clear that since the greatest destruction Saruman wrought was against the Ents and the Hobbits, that they in particular should be the ones to dismantle and put an end to him. That's a more satisfying resolution for the reader, I think. Additionally, it gives us the sense that the Hobbits no longer have to depend on Rangers, or even a King, to protect themselves from the outside world. Gandalf states that this is what they "have been trained for." But mostly I think Gandalf steps aside because he great task is complete. He has honored those who sent him by willingly sacrificing himself for the Quest, and then when returned by the Powers to Middle Earth, rather than use his expanded powers for any kind of self-glorification or power-grab, he continues to be the perfect servant to all, using his power to build up the courage ofthers to fight the good fight, and saving his more extraordinary talents for moments of dire need only.

 

[Gwytha]

I'm not sure about "purely physical" wounds(if there is such a thing), but emotional wounds are often especially grevious on anniverseries. Intense sadness on the date of a loved ones death is pretty common, and people who are prone to suicidality are at higher risk on the anniverseries of traumatic events. A physical wound is often accompanied by emotional trauma and psychic stress exacerbates physical pain. Frodo's injuries were especially emotionally traumatic because of the Ring.

I don't think the weather was bad the first time they were in Bree. But nothing makes the hearth fire burn brighter or shelter cozier than a storm outside, particularly if you've just come in from it. Tolkien employs contrast well here to set the mood.

Re: Butterbur's xenophobia-It's human to care most about those we love, then those we know, then those who look, dress, talk and believe like those we know. Extending one's compassion to the rest of the world is a relatively modern concept, and still more atypical than not. Butterbur's disitnerest in the troubles of strangers may not be admirable, but it would be startling if he were otherwise, and even more so in view of all the trouble strangers have brought Bree in the past year.

I honestly find it hard to believe Aragorn wouldn't make a point of staying at the Prancing Pony on his next journey to the north. It might be a little awkward, with ample opportunites for humor--could make a fabulous piece of fan fic.

I remember being alarmed the first time when Gandalf left--I really wanted to see him save the day again. But I realize now its absolutely essential to the story because it shows just how much the hobbits have grown on their journey, both to themselves and to us. I think its especially fitting that Merry and Pippin, who have both felt they were mostly following along through the great events, to have this occasion to rise to. As for Gandalf, he knows they can handle what comes and anyway, he's retired from coming to everybody's rescue. I don't blame him for turning over the rescuing responsibility to the hobbits.

 

[sador]

Are there any cases of real-life wounds that become worse on their yearly anniversaries or is this purely a magical Tolkien thing?
Probably not physical pain. But one wonders if this might not be an emanation of psychological or spiritual anguish. The psyche might reconnect with memorable dates; and if it is spiritual - well, some might be skeptic about the spiritual value of certain dates, but I expect that Tolkien took them quite seriously.

Charming weather they have on the outskirts of Bree don't they?
Yes. It's good to know that five books later, some justice is finally done to Jackson's image.

They meet Butterbur again. The curtain of the Prancing Pony are red.
I'm sure that once Butterbur is sure that Lotho was turned out and the King was truly back, he would change them to green.

They tell Butterbur what they have been doing but he is a bit overwhelmed.
Quite like on a first reading, isn't it?

News of the events, 'Down South,' must have reached Bree eventually but how much attention did Butterbur pay to current affairs?
I suppose he did. The people of Bree were always voracious for news. But more recently, Bree was attacked by fugitives from the South, and I guess he could not tell whether Saruman's minion were invading in order to add Bree to the wizard's empire, or to find a new place to settle in.

He did know that the Shire was not in a good way, though.

Or was he in the 'One Hobbit alone with his servant set fire to Sauron's fortress,' school of thought?
I doubt he knew that kind of news - or that he believed them if he did.

It's interesting that he doesn't pay too much concern with thousands dying in battles and sieges in foreign lands, but he knows the names and characters of all those that died in Bree.
Of course!

This reminds me a little of some of those reports on the news which used to say, 'A disaster in the third world, thousands dead, but no British casualties,' and any British casualties, however few elsewhere would always be dealt with more detail.
As is only natural.

Finally Butterbur appreciates the Rangers.
I'm sure he did that before. But he didn't like them, which is a completely different affair.
He was also probably unaware of their internal structure - I doubt that he knew that Strider was their captain.

I wonder if he does ever get to meet Strider again?
No. But he might get to kiss Telcontar's glove.

That's a shame Mr. Butterbur because I'm an outsider and I have all of these pennies which I can spend in your hostiality.
Shire hobbits are always welcome, as I'm sure you're aware of, Mr. Gamgee.

But if that's your attitiude I fear you might well say goodbye to those.
Look whose talking! Hamfast?!? First get used to wearing ironmongery! [tongue]

And I don't suppose that Bree is going to enter the Northern ME Free Economic Zone with that kind of thinking either.
And won't need to cough up thousands of gold pieces to pay for the financial incompetence of the new rulers of Cardolan. I'm sure the honest yeomen will approve - although the more international-minded like Bill Ferny will grumble at "lost opportunities" and such.

Tolkien never mentioned Bobs strong body oder did he?
Well, he did name him the ostler.

But I would be wary when speaking of Bob if I were you. Except for a tipsy cat and a horned cow, he also has a pet cobra and a couple of crocodiles...

Sam discovers that Bill the Pony is still alive.
Yep. Once he paid the exobitant tolls the Wargs asked for, they let him go.

One, two, three Arrrrrrrr!
Wasn't the Talk Like a Pirate day last week?

I wonder how long Bill lived for?
About the same as Old_Billy.

Maybe Sam rode Bill when he became Mayor all of those times later on in his life. And Bill lived longer than any of us readers imagined.
Maybe. Or else he lent him to Bombur when the latter visited the Shire - with tragic results.

Where are the Horse and the Rider?

Would he meet Bombadil if Tom is in his more forgetful moods.
In the drafts of the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said that Tom did not altogether approve of him. In that case, I'm sure he won't forget a thing!

And is this totally wise?
Like every other thing Gandalf said or did.

Gandalf knows the Shire is in trouble. And some Hobbits are in danger. Could he have helped?
Yes.
And that would prevent Pippin and Merry from rising as they should, and keep the Shirefolk subservient and dependant.

Is his attitude now similair to that of the Valar in leaving ME to it's own devices all those ages ago?
Well, he was sent back naked for a short time, until his task was done (The White Rider).
It is done, He has no business interfering any further.

Well, that is it for now as Gandalf might say.
Thank you for this discussion!

 

[Atlas]

"You don't know much even about [Breelanders], if you think old Barliman is stupid."

~Gandalf (Book I, Many Meetings)

Butterbur doesn't pay much mind to the deaths of thousands in other lands because it's not the way for anyone to do so. Sure, some momentous catastrophes intrude upon our daily lives in this Age of the Interwebz, but many, many more that are not quite as large go unnoticed or are quickly forgotten. How well do we remember the 50,000 deaths from an earthquake in China 3 years ago? Or the 21,000 killed by a cyclone in Myanmar the same year? How often do we think about Sudan? The death toll estimates there are difficult to confirm, but they range from about 200,000 to 500,000. What about Congo? There has been debate about methods, but the argument is whether millions of people have died or "only" hundreds of thousands.

And yet, I'm willing to bet in this far more connected age, we still think about local problems far more. It doesn't mean we're bad people. We're just human.

Butterbur has an aversion to strangers in large part because his recent encounters with them have been unpleasant. And he's open to having more travellers; he expresses a wish that there would be "a few decent, respectable folk on the roads". What he's worried about is that people will move in, take over, change what they have. Butterbur is a very conservative person in a very non-political sense. He has something that works, a way of life and a place he likes and is concerned that someone who thinks he knows better will come and try to change things. This is why he admits that the King's visit would be good for business, but expresses a hope that the King will leave well enough alone. And the news that the King is a man who knows the town and appreciates it for what it is cheers him up considerably.

I'm surprised that you don't mention the real reason that Gandalf put the hobbits off about meeting with Bombadil. Because, of course, Bombadil was the Witch-King in disguise. He is, at this point in the tale, dead, and unable to meet with anyone. But, since the hobbits do not know this, it provides a convenient excuse for Gandalf to slip off and allow them to handle the problems of the Shire on their own. For them to grow up a bit and realize that they will be on their own from now on because Gandalf will not be there to watch over them. Gandalf has to leave, but this allows the separation to be short, at first and he'll be nearby if things get out of hand, though I'm sure he's confident they won't.

(Edited for grammar fail.)

 

[Hamfast Gamgee]

All right, I missed the part about the blessings on the Beer on this occasion. It might have been purely symbolic. But Butterbur seemed to think that his beer was uncommonly good so coincidence? Actually if he had that power I wish he would visit one or two pubs I know and bless their beer. But I am sure that any Gandalf in Valinor has better things to do than help me drink ale!
Actually I do quite like Butterbur and all of the folk at the Prancing Pony. Ferny excepted possibly. I've written fanfic about them in fact! I like to think that he did get some idea of what was happening outside though in what precise details is a matter of debate.
I wonder what those monsters were. Simple Wolves perhaps? Though Strider did give some hints about dark shapes that seem something more. Remember than even in the Barrow-wrights next to Bree were some pretty scary creatures. And with Mordor been active for a while it wouldn't surprise me if such creature had become bolder.

 

[Hamfast Gamgee]

The scale of some of those third or even second world disasters sometimes takes my breath away. I simply can't imagine what having tens of thousands of people dying in a tsuami or earthquake in one night must be like. In some ways it's worse than any man-made horror. Though the worse horror I have heard of in my life was man-made. Rather more than the pin-pricks that the armies of the West seem to suffer in recent wars at least in the official war stage.
I think at this moment Butterbur is more amazed than delighted. But he seems to think it could be hopeful news.