** IV.7 Journey to the Cross-roads – 4. Earthy Thursday: Landscape, Road, Trees

[squire]

This is the fourth day of a thematic discussion of Book IV, Chapter 7, of The Lord of the Rings. To repeat my opening pitch for contributors: please feel free to answer just the questions that interest you – or to propose new ideas or new questions that I have not thought of.

Landscape​

The landscape of Ithilien – at least the part that features in this story – is described as clearly as any place in Middle-earth. It is a Mediterranean-climate highland, walled to the east by the foothills and mountains of Mordor, and sloping off to the west into the lowland valley of the Great River. This attractive landscape dominates Chapter 4 (“Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit”) as a relief from the desolation of the Marshes and Dead Lands that the hobbits have just left. It encloses the two chapters that take place in Faramir’s hide-out but it is not further developed, aside from the first few pages of Chapter 5 and the moonlit vista revealed in Chapter 6. Now in Chapter 7, the hobbits resume their journey south, and we re-encounter Ithilien – an Ithilien in some ways quite different from the sunny post-pastoral landscape of Chapter 4.


Topography – escarpment

They stood under the boughs of the woods again. No noise of the falls could be heard, for a long southward slope lay now between them and the ravine in which the stream flowed. To the west they could see light through the trees, as if the world came there to a sudden end, at a brink looking out only on to sky.
‘Here is the last parting of our ways,’ said Faramir. ‘If you take my counsel, you will not turn eastward yet. Go straight on, for thus you will have the cover of the woodland for many miles. On your west is an edge where the land falls into the great vales, sometimes suddenly and sheer, sometimes in long hillsides. Keep near to this edge and the skirts of the forest.’ (All quotations are from LotR IV.7 unless otherwise noted; all bold emphases are by squire.)​

A. Can you visualize this escarpment, or “edge”? What elevation do you think the average “drop-off” is? Do you think this is the major geologic feature of Ithilien province, or does it only occur in just the few-score miles of slope that Frodo is being advised to traverse?
B. What image does “as if the world came there to a sudden end” bring to mind? Is this “edge” a symbol?
We know from Chapter 4 that upper Ithilien – the region uphill from the “edge” – was settled by Gondor with extensive villas, farms, gardens, and a highly-engineered road.
C. Did the “edge” – almost sheer in places, always steep – present a major barrier to transportation from the Anduin valley? Was lower Ithilien, ranging afield from Osgiliath and Cair Andros, settled even more heavily, with its own roads and settlements even if we never encounter them in the story? Given the spectacular views to the west, why do the hobbits not encounter more ruins, roads, etc. along this part of their journey?

At first they walk far in woods so dense that the shadows are green, and daylight comes only from the western outlook where the trees come to an end. But by the end of the second day, the trees thin out:

As the third stage of their day’s march drew on and afternoon waned, the forest opened out, and the trees became larger and more scattered. … About them lay long launds of green grass dappled with celandine and anemones, white and blue, now folded for sleep; and there were acres populous with the leaves of woodland hyacinths: already their sleek bell-stems were thrusting through the mould.​

D. How does this picturesque passage compare with the more prominent descriptions of the flora of Ithilien in Chapter 4, e.g., “tamarisk and pungent terebinth”, etc.? (See my footer for a link to my 2005 discussion of that chapter.)
E. Are there any mythical or medieval herbal associations that would add interest to the choices of celandine, anemones, and woodland hyacinths as the named flowers here?
E1. Extra credit: Is Tolkien talking about “greater celandine” Chelidonium majus, or “lesser celandine” Ranunculus ficaria?
F. Why does the forest change density at this time in their journey, just before they arrive at the Morgulduin vale?

Morgulduin Vale

There they sat under an old gnarled oak that sent its roots twisting like snakes down a steep crumbling bank. A deep dim valley lay before them. On its further side the woods gathered again, blue and grey under the sullen evening, and marched on southwards. To the right the Mountains of Gondor glowed, remote in the West, under a fire-flecked sky. To the left lay darkness: the towering walls of Mordor; and out of that darkness the long valley came, falling steeply in an ever-widening trough towards the Anduin. At its bottom ran a hurrying stream: Frodo could hear its stony voice coming up through the silence; and beside it on the hither side a road went winding down like a pale ribbon, down into chill grey mists that no gleam of sunset touched. ​

G. Does it seem to you that the “edge” is present in this landscape? That is, are the hobbits perched at the edge of a cliff or cliff-like slope on their right, such that the “ever-widening” Morgulduin valley would suddenly open up for good and the river dramatically emerge from the highlands? Wouldn’t there be a waterfall at some point, as the example of Henneth Annun suggests? But if the “edge” is no longer present, how was the difference in elevations reconciled?
H. If the woods gather again on the far side of the valley, does that suggest that the valley itself is open unwooded country? How would that work, ecologically?

[Frodo] turned to Gollum. ‘Do you know where we are?’ he said. ‘Yes, Master. Dangerous places. This is the road from the Tower of the Moon, Master, down to the ruined city by the shores of the River. The ruined city, yes, very nasty place, full of enemies. We shouldn’t have taken Men’s advice. Hobbits have come a long way out of the path. Must go east now, away up there.’ He waved his skinny arm towards the darkling mountains.​

I. Why does Gollum call it the Tower of the Moon, instead of Tower of Living Death?
J. Can we assume that the forty-odd miles of woodland path Frodo has been taking south for two days (with no recorded objection from Gollum until now) parallels the southbound high road they had been traveling on since the Morannon? Likewise, is the distance uphill to the road at this point not much different from what it was three days ago when Faramir escorted the hobbits downhill to his lair on the fall line? If so, why does Gollum say they have gone “a long way out of the path”?

Topography - Uplands

… they went on again with Gollum leading, eastwards, up the dark sloping land. They could see little, for the night was now so deep that they were hardly aware of the stems of trees before they stumbled against them. The ground became more broken and walking was more difficult, but Gollum seemed in no way troubled. He led them through thickets and wastes of brambles; sometimes round the lip of a deep cleft or dark pit, sometimes down into black bush-shrouded hollows and out again; but if ever they went a little downward, always the further slope was longer and steeper. They were climbing steadily. ​

Gollum is going uphill to regain the high road that they left several days ago.
K. How does this landscape differ from the hillsides that they descended in company with Faramir on the way to Henneth Annun?

Soon they began to climb up on to a great hog-back of land. For the most part it was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of recent fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould…. [they] crawled for hiding underneath a tangled knot of thorns. Their twisted boughs, stooping to the ground, were overridden by a clambering maze of old briars. Deep inside there was a hollow hall, raftered with dead branch and bramble, and roofed with the first leaves and shoots of spring.​

L. What are the plants named here: whortleberry, gorse, thorn, briar, and bramble? Are they “right” for Ithilien – that is, do they belong to the same Mediterranean biome that was described in Chapter 4?
M. How does the hobbits’ thorny “hall” comment on the other hospitable halls that the Fellowship has found refuge in throughout the story?
N. Fires?

No lack of water

• [Faramir:] ‘You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do not drink of any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul…’
• … a long southward slope lay now between them and the ravine in which the stream flowed.
• [Faramir:] ‘Go straight on, … On your west is an edge where the land falls into the great vales, sometimes suddenly and sheer, sometimes in long hillsides. Keep near to this edge…’
• A deep dim valley lay before them. On its further side the woods gathered again, … To the left lay darkness: the towering walls of Mordor; and out of that darkness the long valley came, falling steeply in an ever-widening trough towards the Anduin. At its bottom ran a hurrying stream…

In Chapter 4 we learned that Ithilien is “a fair country of climbing woods and swift-falling streams”, which Faramir confirms here by suggesting they will encounter running water frequently on their way south. But even the small stream, that Frodo and Sam first camped by, had cut a sheer ravine into the “edge” of the uplands (i.e., at Henneth Annun), while the major river of the Morgul Vale has sliced through the escarpment as if by a giant knife, blocking the hobbits’ southern path completely.
O. Did the hobbits encounter no natural obstacles in the form of deep stream-cut gorges and ravines, in the forty miles between Henneth Annun and the Morgul Vale?

Road​

• But most of the paths were cheats and deceptions and led nowhere or to bad ends; … The dwarves and the hobbit, helped by the wise advice of Elrond and the knowledge and memory of Gandalf, took the right road to the right pass. (Hobbit, Ch. 4)
• “Good-bye! Be good, take care of yourselves-and DON’T LEAVE THE PATH!” (Hobbit, Ch. 7)
• ‘I am not going out of the way, back to the road we left last night: I am going to cut straight across country from here.’ … ‘If you were in a hurry, the road would have served you better,’ said the farmer. (LotR, I.4)
• ‘I am not going by road: it would be safer to wait here than that. … The only thing to do is to go off in a quite unexpected direction.’ … Fredegar [was] horrified. ‘You can’t be thinking of doing that. It is quite as dangerous as Black Riders.’ (LotR, I.5)
• ‘He will not go astray-if there is any path to find.’ … He was deep in thought, … considering anxiously the next course that he should take; a false turn now might be disastrous. (LotR, II.4)
• ‘… perhaps another day will show us a path.’ … ‘We’ve come the wrong way.’… ‘All my choices have proved ill. I should have left the Company long before, and come down from the North, east of the River and of the Emyn Muil, and so over the hard of Battle Plain to the passes of Mordor.’ (LotR, IV.1)
• [Gollum:] ‘We shouldn’t have taken Men’s advice. Hobbits have come a long way out of the path. Must go east now, away up there.’ (LotR, IV.7)

One of the great themes of The Lord of the Rings is that of the Road, and of the dangers and/or benefits of leaving it. Here in Ithilien, Frodo and Sam left their Road and were unexpectedly captured, interrogated, and finally aided by Faramir. Now most of this chapter is shaped by Frodo’s decision to ignore Gollum’s guidance, and his own instinct, in favor of Faramir’s advice regarding the route they should take to the Morgul valley:

‘If you take my counsel, you will not turn eastward yet. Go straight on, for thus you will have the cover of the woodland for many miles. … In the beginning of your journey you may walk under daylight, I think. The land dreams in a false peace, and for a while all evil is withdrawn. Fare you well, while you may!’​

P. Was there a path in the lower woodlands that Frodo and Gollum discovered and followed? Or were they cutting cross-country through a forest, thus traveling slower than they would have on a straight and level road?
Q. If the land dreams in a false peace – that is, if there are no enemies anywhere in Ithilien – what is the advantage of not going back to the Road as quickly as possible? To ask more directly: why does Tolkien divert the story-Road in this way at this time? (n.b.: Granted that this is a variation on my question J. above, but here I highlight Faramir’s, or the author’s, perspective instead of Gollum’s.)

• …beside [the Morgul stream] on the hither side a road went winding down [to Osgiliath] like a pale ribbon, …BUT… he saw, beyond an arch of boughs, the road to Osgiliath running almost as straight as a stretched ribbon down, down, into the West.
• The [Southward] road had been made in a long lost time… The handiwork of Men of old could still be seen in its straight sure flight and level course: now and again it cut its way through hillside slopes, or leaped over a stream upon a wide shapely arch of enduring masonry; … It dwindled at last to a country cart-road little used; but it did not wind: it held on its own sure course and guided them by the swiftest way (LotR, IV.4). ...BUT… suddenly there it was before them: the Southward Road, winding its way about the outer feet of the mountains,…

R. The roads of Gondor in Ithilien: Winding, or Straight?

‘This is the only way,’ whispered Gollum. ‘No paths beyond the road. No paths. We must go to the Cross-roads.’ ​

S. Why are there “no paths” to the east of the great Southern Road, when there seem to be so many ways to criss-cross Ithilien on the west side?

At length they reached the trees, and found that they stood in a great roofless ring, open in the middle to the sombre sky; and the spaces between their immense boles were like the great dark arches of some ruined hall. In the very centre four ways met. Behind them lay the road to the Morannon; before them it ran out again upon its long journey south; to their right the road from old Osgiliath came climbing up, and crossing, passed out eastward into darkness: the fourth way, the road they were to take.​

T. What is the symbolism of the Cross-roads of Ithilien?
U. If the roads of Gondor seem based on the road system of the Roman Empire, did the Romans build or plant cross-roads landscaping like this? If not, are there any other real-world examples of this remarkable setting?
V. What is the other great Cross-roads in the story? Do our heroes encounter it? Does it have a monumental presence?

The brief glow fell upon a huge sitting figure, still and solemn as the great stone kings of Argonath. ​

W. I asked this during a previous discussion, but it’s still a mystery to me. In a circle of trees, crossed by four roads from the points of the compass, that meet in the dead center: where exactly would one expect to find a single giant seated sculpture of a King, placed so inconspicuously that one would not notice it when first entering the space?

Trees​

…said Faramir; ‘but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. … They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. …’​

X. Why is the “fair tree lebethron” so beloved of wood wrights, who kill, cut, and carve the tree into wood for use by men?
Y. How does this brief one-time reference to a tree of Gondor contribute to the story’s strong theme of the importance of living trees to a natural landscape?

As the third stage of their day’s march drew on and afternoon waned, the forest opened out, and the trees became larger and more scattered. Great ilexes of huge girth stood dark and solemn in wide glades with here and there among them hoary ash-trees, and giant oaks just putting out their brown-green buds. ​

Z. Why ilexes, ash, and oak at this time? What trees did the hobbits walk among up to this point? What trees were seen to grow in Ithilien when the hobbits first entered the land?

[Gollum] would not rest on the ground so near the evil road, and after some debate they all climbed up into the crotch of a large holm-oak, whose thick branches springing together from the trunk made a good hiding-place and a fairly comfortable refuge. Night fell and it grew altogether dark under the canopy of the tree. Frodo and Sam … did not shut their eyes. … Gollum dropped at once from the branches of the tree on to all fours, and the hobbits followed more slowly.​

AA. How does this scene relate to the similar one on the border of Lothlórien?
In the three rest scenes in this chapter, the hobbits sleep twice on the ground under cover of trees or brambles; but here they cannot sleep at all despite their fatigue.
AB. Why can’t they sleep in a tree? Or does that have nothing to do with it?

Presently, not far ahead, looming up like a black wall, they saw a belt of trees. As they drew nearer they became aware that these were of vast size, very ancient it seemed, and still towering high, though their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them, but had failed to kill them or to shake their fathomless roots.​

AC. What is the symbolism of this scene (if any)?

At length they reached the trees, and found that they stood in a great roofless ring, open in the middle to the sombre sky; and the spaces between their immense boles were like the great dark arches of some ruined hall.​

Another hall simile!
AD. What other halls in the story does this description remind you of?
AD1. Extra Credit. Any chance the Ents were involved with this construction?

• As if to mark his disregard of all such courtesy, Gollum was scrabbling in the mould at the foot of a tree.
• Frodo lay and slept away the night on the deep mould beneath an ancient tree.
• …woodland hyacinths: already their sleek bell-stems were thrusting through the mould.
• …the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould.

AE. What is mould? Why does Tolkien so emphasize the word, and the idea of, mould in this chapter?

Sorry for the lateness of this post! I appreciate all the responses so far, and I hope to comment on them as soon as I finish with my final wrap-up in the next few (i.e. 24) hours.

 

[flying fish]

Just a couple of things jumped out at me:

I. Why does Gollum refer to the Tower of the Moon?

Didn't he know about it by that name from his childhood tales? Sometimes events don't change things: "Eyre's Rock" will always be my automatic name for "Uluru", as that was the name I grew up with. I don't think Gollum feels any need to be politically correct with regards the name for Minas Morgul / Ithil.

J. Gollum is just whining and generally trying to cast aspersions (sp?) on Faramir + crew. "We're miles out of the way; they delayed us; stooopid men etc etc etc"

L. ...do they belong to the same Mediterranean biome?

More prickly and less pleasant / scenic plants fit the increasing proximity to Mordor presumably. Have you been to some of the more mountainous and arid regions of the Mediterranean? Lots of low, tough, sparse shrubby herbs and plants, suitable only for geep (domestic herd animal of indeterminate type - might be a goat, might be a sheep = geep). Thinking of Crete here; a far cry from the lush fields of the northern areas, but not that far away distance-wise.

O - S: Ithilien geography and topography: nup, not a single scholarly idea: Tolkien was over describing cross-country obstacles, and they didn't advance the story, so got happily overlooked?

AE: "Mould" - the various uses of.

My idea is that Tolkien was referring to the stuff the Earth was made of when he used the term, rather than the stuff that holds the bathroom tiles on in bad rental accommodation (never try and scrub it off to impress your landlord). There's a note about it in "The Lay of Leithian" ....'A king there was in days of old, ere Men yet walked upon the mould, his power was reared in cavern's shade...' etc. (my italics)

Thanks for leading the discussion: I haven't posted much recently, but I do enjoy reading everyone else's posts.

 

[Darkstone]

A. Can you visualize this escarpment, or “edge”?

Sure. Faramir is giving good advice. By traveling at “the skirt of the forest” and at the edge of the escarpment they have much better chances. They will be better able to hear sounds ahead or behind whereas if they were in the close forest sounds would be muffled. Being up high increases their field of vision. They’d be more likely to see anyone traveling below, whereas those below would be much less likely to look up and notice them. If they notice any danger they can withdraw deeper into the woods and go to ground.


What elevation do you think the average “drop-off” is?

High to middling.


Do you think this is the major geologic feature of Ithilien province, or does it only occur in just the few-score miles of slope that Frodo is being advised to traverse?

Major. Escarpments are usually caused either by erosion or faulting. What with Oroduin and all the Mordor earthquakes I’d wager this one is caused by faulting. In which case it’s probably part of an extensive network of escarpments.

I also assume Tolkien would be aware of the difference between “escarpment” and “scarp”.


B. What image does “as if the world came there to a sudden end” bring to mind?

Terra Incognita.


Is this “edge” a symbol?

It’s a liminal boundary, which ironically the hobbits do not cross but rather move parallel to.

This means something.


C. Did the “edge” – almost sheer in places, always steep – present a major barrier to transportation from the Anduin valley?

Given the Numenorean skill of construction, I’d say no. The big question, though, is how recent was the tectonic upheaval that created the escarpment?


Was lower Ithilien, ranging afield from Osgiliath and Cair Andros, settled even more heavily, with its own roads and settlements even if we never encounter them in the story?

There were probably zoning laws. Settlements and an extensive road network below would spoil the view of the rich up in higher Ithilien. And they no doubt also limited the number of roads to a minimum to restrict access.


Given the spectacular views to the west, why do the hobbits not encounter more ruins, roads, etc. along this part of their journey?

See above.


D. How does this picturesque passage compare with the more prominent descriptions of the flora of Ithilien in Chapter 4, e.g., “tamarisk and pungent terebinth”, etc.? (See my footer for a link to my 2005 discussion of that chapter.)

This area seems to be more ornamental than the pretty but utilitarian other.


E. Are there any mythical or medieval herbal associations that would add interest to the choices of celandine…

The small celandine is a very early bloomer:

"Ere a leaf is on a bush,
In the time before the Thrush
Has a thought about its nest,
Thou wild come with half a call,
Spreading out thy glossy breast
Like a careless Prodigal;
Telling tales about the sun,
When we've little warmth, or none."
-To the Small Celandine, William Wordsworth

It’s also very relient, like a hobbit:

"There is a Flower, the Lesser Celandine,
That shrinks, like many more, from cold and rain;
And, at the first moment that the sun may shine,
Bright as the sun itself, 'tis out again!"
-The Small Celandine, William Wordsworth


…anemones,…

“Anemone” means “daughter of the winds” or possibly “pieces of blood”.


and woodland hyacinths as the named flowers here?

Woodland hyacinths are far more hardy and less top heavy than their cultivated cousins, and don’t tend to topple over near as much.

Kinda like hobbits versus Men.


E1. Extra credit: Is Tolkien talking about “greater celandine” Chelidonium majus, or “lesser celandine” Ranunculus ficaria?

It’s a bit early in the season for “greater celandine”, isn’t it?


F. Why does the forest change density at this time in their journey, just before they arrive at the Morgulduin vale?

Pollution can do that. What with all the industry doubtlessly using sulfur-rich coal I’d imagine lots of acid rain coming out of Mordor. And high winds and low air pressure can do that as well. And what with earthquakes and volcanoes one might also suspect underground temperatures may be too high for the roots to flourish.


G. Does it seem to you that the “edge” is present in this landscape?

Sure.


That is, are the hobbits perched at the edge of a cliff or cliff-like slope on their right, such that the “ever-widening” Morgulduin valley would suddenly open up for good and the river dramatically emerge from the highlands?

Sounds like it.


Wouldn’t there be a waterfall at some point, as the example of Henneth Annun suggests?

Probably, but the question is how high the falls might be? For example the original falls of Wichita Falls were five foot high. There might not be any Henneth Annun type falls at all but just a series small falls, and maybe some rapids,


But if the “edge” is no longer present, how was the difference in elevations reconciled?

Optical illusion.


H. If the woods gather again on the far side of the valley, does that suggest that the valley itself is open unwooded country?

Or sparsely wooded, but sure.


How would that work, ecologically?

Volcanic activity. Seepage from underground of toxic gases can accumulate in low places (such as this valley) and kill off flora (hydrogen sulphide) and/or fauna (carbon dioxide). Living in a low place next to a volcano can be and has been extremely deadly.


I. Why does Gollum call it the Tower of the Moon, instead of Tower of Living Death?

That’s the name he knew it by.

"The old fortress, very old, very horrible now. We used to hear tales from the South, when Sméagol was young, long ago. O yes. we used to tell lots of tales in the evening, sitting by the banks of the Great River, in the willow-lands, when the River was younger too, gollum, gollum." He began to weep and mutter. The hobbits waited patiently.
"Tales out of the South," Gollum went on again, "about the tall Men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree: wonderful tales. They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon."

Besides, it was Faramir who used the phrase “Valley of Living Death” and Gollum might be loathe to use his words.

Finally the phrase “living death” might cause the hobbits to give up and go home and he’d never get the ring.


J. Can we assume that the forty-odd miles of woodland path Frodo has been taking south for two days (with no recorded objection from Gollum until now) parallels the southbound high road they had been traveling on since the Morannon?

Sure.


Likewise, is the distance uphill to the road at this point not much different from what it was three days ago when Faramir escorted the hobbits downhill to his lair on the fall line?

Sure.


If so, why does Gollum say they have gone “a long way out of the path”?

Some people are just like that. Complain, complain, complain. I mean, someone could make a $400 million movie trilogy about a beloved book and people would still complain that some throwaway characters weren’t included or that a few minor characters were changed.


Gollum is going uphill to regain the high road that they left several days ago.
K. How does this landscape differ from the hillsides that they descended in company with Faramir on the way to Henneth Annun?

They’re going uphill instead of downhill.


L. What are the plants named here: whortleberry, gorse, thorn, briar, and bramble?

Prickly shrubs with edible berries that hate lime and live in acidic soils, usually in wind-blasted places like heaths.

I’m taking whortleberry for my eyeball pimples, i.e., macular drusen. It’s supposed to stop or even reverse it. Hey, you grab any chance no matter how silly to avoid going blind, eh?


Are they “right” for Ithilien – that is, do they belong to the same Mediterranean biome that was described in Chapter 4?

Sure.


M. How does the hobbits’ thorny “hall” comment on the other hospitable halls that the Fellowship has found refuge in throughout the story?

I’m thinking more like the halls in The Hobbit;


“About four days from the enchanted stream they came to a part where most of the trees were beeches. They were at first inclined to be cheered by the change, for here there was no undergrowth and the shadow was not so deep. There was a greenish light about them, and in places they could see some distance to either side of the path. Yet the light only showed them endless lines of straight grey trunks like the pillars of some huge twilight hall.”

And:

“In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking on a chair of carven wood. On his head was a crown of berries and red leaves, for the autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers. In his hand he held a carven staff of oak.”

And a verse of the song the Dwarves sung in Beorn’s hall seems especially apt:

“The wind was on the withered heath,
but in the forest stirred no leaf:
there shadows lay by night and day,
and dark things silent crept beneath.”

And of course:

“The king is come unto his hall
Under the Mountain dark and tall.
The Worm of Dread is slain and dead,
And ever so our foes shall fall!”


N. Fires?

Yes.


O. Did the hobbits encounter no natural obstacles in the form of deep stream-cut gorges and ravines, in the forty miles between Henneth Annun and the Morgul Vale?

That’s the wonderful thing about following animal trails. Of course, sometimes they lead you right into a bear.


One of the great themes of The Lord of the Rings is that of the Road, and of the dangers and/or benefits of leaving it.

“’Never get off the Road.’ Absolutely right. Unless you were going all the way. Sauron got off the road. He split from the whole Music of the Ainur program, mission, quest, thing.
The youngest, the one they called Pip, was from the Great Smials. He was wrapped too tight for Bree. Probably wrapped too tight for the Smials. Meridoc was a famous scion from Brandybuck Hall southeast of Hobbiton. You look at him and you wouldn't believe he ever did a day’s work in his whole life. Samwise was from some Bagshot Row dirthole. The light of the Elves and the wide open spaces of Arnor really put the zap on his head. Then there was Frodo, the Ringbearer. It might have been my mission, but it was sure as Eru Frodo’s burden.
Someday this war's going to end. That'd be just fine with these four boys. They weren't looking for anything more than a way home. Trouble is, I'd been back there, and I knew that it just didn't exist anymore.”
-Elessar Telcontar, “Apocalypse at the End of the Third Age: A Memoir”


P. Was there a path in the lower woodlands that Frodo and Gollum discovered and followed?

Probably a series of game paths.


Or were they cutting cross-country through a forest, thus traveling slower than they would have on a straight and level road?

That too.


Q. If the land dreams in a false peace – that is, if there are no enemies anywhere in Ithilien – what is the advantage of not going back to the Road as quickly as possible?

“Fare you well, while you may!”

That is. “While all evil is withdrawn, don’t get caught in the open when it returns!”


To ask more directly: why does Tolkien divert the story-Road in this way at this time?

To focus on his other theme, Green.


R. The roads of Gondor in Ithilien: Winding, or Straight?

Yes. Like the Roman roads of Europe. They are famed for being straight, but the Romans weren’t stupid. If an obstacle was too big they winded around it.

(Then again, since the roads were so straight and ancient people were so dumb they must have been made by…. ALIENS!)


S. Why are there “no paths” to the east of the great Southern Road, when there seem to be so many ways to criss-cross Ithilien on the west side?

The same reason why are there no roads to the east of California State Highway 1 between Big Sur and Monterey. The road is hugging the southern Coastal Range!


T. What is the symbolism of the Cross-roads of Ithilien?

The Point of No Return for all three. Each must make a decision to either continue with their intentions or turn aside.


U. If the roads of Gondor seem based on the road system of the Roman Empire, did the Romans build or plant cross-roads landscaping like this?

The Romans placed shrines at all cross-roads, to Mercury (messenger) or Hecate (crossroads).


If not, are there any other real-world examples of this remarkable setting?

From Andrea Alciato’s Emblematum liber (1531):

“Emblem 8

“Where the gods call, there one must go.

“Where three ways meet there is a pile of stones; above it rises a truncated statue of a god, from the chest up. It must be the tomb of Mercury; oh traveler, hang up garlands to the god so that he may show you the right way. We are all at the crossroads, and in this path of life we err, unless the god himself shows us the way.”


V. What is the other great Cross-roads in the story?

The Shire, Hobbiton, Bree, Rivendell, Hollin, Lorien, Amon Hen, Henneth Annun


Do our heroes encounter it?

Sure.


Does it have a monumental presence?

Sure, but some crossroads are hidden.


W. I asked this during a previous discussion, but it’s still a mystery to me. In a circle of trees, crossed by four roads from the points of the compass, that meet in the dead center: where exactly would one expect to find a single giant seated sculpture of a King, placed so inconspicuously that one would not notice it when first entering the space?

Anywhere, if the statue is made inconspicuous enough.

Camouflage helps.

X. Why is the “fair tree lebethron” so beloved of wood wrights, who kill, cut, and carve the tree into wood for use by men?

Maybe it’s like cocuswood,. It was the wood of choice for woodwind instruments until about 1900, when it was effectively logged out as a commercial species. The alternative to replace it was East African Ebony, or African Blackwood, and here 100 years later, guess what?

From Hazel Sharman’s "Investigation into the Sustainable Management of a Tropical Timber Tree Species, using Dalbergia Melanoxylon as a Case Study” (1995):

“Whilst it may not be biologically or ecologically threatened, it may well be commercially threatened. The constant removal of individuals with the same characteristics will be extremely harmful to the population structure, possibly resulting in genetic erosion. The end result may be a constant decline in the population until it is commercially extinct, leaving, if any, a population structure which may not be able to reproduce and that if it can, will reproduce individuals without those characteristics so highly prized by the trade and human society and a population weak and vulnerable to natural disaster and environmental change.”

The more things change….


Y. How does this brief one-time reference to a tree of Gondor contribute to the story’s strong theme of the importance of living trees to a natural landscape?

Don’t kill what you love, or that which makes what you love. At least don’t kill what makes you money.


Z. Why ilexes, ash, and oak at this time?

They’re images of rebirth.


What trees did the hobbits walk among up to this point?

I’d imagine evergreens, like most of the shrubs that were mentioned.


What trees were seen to grow in Ithilien when the hobbits first entered the land?

I forget.


AA. How does this scene relate to the similar one on the border of Lothlórien?

There Sam slept while Frodo and Gollum were awake, here it’s just the opposite, only Frodo is still awake.

.
AB. Why can’t they sleep in a tree?

Itchy stuff like tree bark, twigs, and leaves, fellow bed-mates like bees, ants, and stink bugs, nocturnal isitors like squirrels, chipmunks, and woodpeckers.

Plus the tree could actually be an entwife and when she wakes up she could be sleepy and mistake them for curlers in which case they’re in a world of hurt.


Or does that have nothing to do with it?

Yes and no.


AC. What is the symbolism of this scene (if any)?

You can burn down the trees but the forest is always there. (Or is that the other way around?) Anyway, you can pave paradise and put in a parking lot but eventually the concrete is going to crack and trees are going to start pushing right back up.

You just can’t keep a good forest down.

Plus a fire climax tree community actually needs to get burned down once in a while in order to grow, so oft evil will shall evil mar. Or something like that. I’ve heard it in all sorts of combinations like “evil oft shall evil mar” or “evil shall oft evil mar” or “evil evil mar oft shall”. (Well, not really that last one.)


At length they reached the trees, and found that they stood in a great roofless ring, open in the middle to the sombre sky; and the spaces between their immense boles were like the great dark arches of some ruined hall.

Another hall simile!

A question for all DMs: Is LOTR a Monty Hall dungeon?


AD. What other halls in the story does this description remind you of?

Iniquity? Montezuma?


AD1. Extra Credit. Any chance the Ents were involved with this construction?

They subcontracted. The Entwives went on strike and then strikebreaking goons from Gondor came and now you know the fate of the Entwives. They’re in the Bay of Belfalas with cement root systems.


AE. What is mould?

It’s what John Brown’s body does lying in the grave though his truth goes marching on.


Why does Tolkien so emphasize the word, and the idea of, mould in this chapter?

It's an homage to Harper’s Faerie.

 

[CuriousG]

C. Did the “edge” – almost sheer in places, always steep – present a major barrier to transportation from the Anduin valley? Was lower Ithilien, ranging afield from Osgiliath and Cair Andros, settled even more heavily, with its own roads and settlements even if we never encounter them in the story? Given the spectacular views to the west, why do the hobbits not encounter more ruins, roads, etc. along this part of their journey?
I wonder about this myself. Even in Rhudaur we see old castles. The hobbits travel through Ithilien and see nothing but an old road, no sign of long habitation by Gondor.


I. Why does Gollum call it the Tower of the Moon, instead of Tower of Living Death?
Great question, I never caught that. I'm not sure how he'd know it's name except maybe from his time in Mordor, either as captive or by spying and overhearing it spoken? Maybe Sauron still calls it by its old name and M. Morgul is a Gondor-only name?

L. What are the plants named here: whortleberry, gorse, thorn, briar, and bramble? Are they “right” for Ithilien – that is, do they belong to the same Mediterranean biome that was described in Chapter 4?
I'd guess they weren't in pre-Morgul Ithilien and are a sign of how the land is getting rougher and less civilized. Just as when the hobbits escape from Cirith Ungol and wind up in some very nasty thorn bushes, the last outcrop of life before reaching lifeless Mordor. (Which makes me wonder if it's just Gorgoroth that's lifeless since Nurnen supports farms.)

O. Did the hobbits encounter no natural obstacles in the form of deep stream-cut gorges and ravines, in the forty miles between Henneth Annun and the Morgul Vale?
Doesn't seem likely, does it? But apparently not.

X. Why is the “fair tree lebethron” so beloved of wood wrights, who kill, cut, and carve the tree into wood for use by men?
Always a contradiction in Tolkien. He loves trees, Elves love trees, and if you love them, you don't cut them down like Dwarves do. Maybe Dwarves abuse them because they want to burn them, while the way out of this problem is that Elves make lovely things from them. But they still cut down the trees and their no longer alive. I'd bet if the trees could vote, they'd be left standing, and the Elves could take up pottery instead.