Isildur and the ONE RING

Junesong

Junesong

Rohan
Question for you all:

According to the books, what was Isildur's motivation in cutting the ring from Sauron's finger? Was he doing it to defeat Sauron, or, as he claims, "as weregild" or was he doing it out of desire for the ring, or all of the above? When looking through all Tolkien's writings about the last alliance and the fate of Isildur, I haven't found any clues as to whether the ring had "already started to work" on Isildur or any of the other men who fought on the slopes of Mt Doom.

Did Isildur know the one ring's true power? Was he tempted? Or was it only after taking possession that Isildur began to feel the effects of the ring? How much did even the elves know or understand about the power of the one ring at the time of the last alliance?

In other words - was one of the main goals of the last Alliance to find, take and destroy Sauron's ring? How famous would the rings of power have been at this time? Did everyone know about them and covet them or were they a secret known only to the wise?

Also - should we take from Gandalf's words in Bag End that ALL the rings of power had a similar effect on their possessors - ie: you feel a strong possessiveness? Or was it just because of Sauron's corrupted will?

Any masters of Tolkien ring lore out there who can clear any of this up?
 
Initially, taking the Ring from Sauron was to solidify his defeat, though it is certainly possible that Isildur already wanted to claim it as wereguild. Desire for the Ring for its own sake probably came later, possibly as soon as Isildur was faced with the possibility of destroying it.

I doubt that Isildur fully understood the power(s) of the Master Ring, though he likely had some rough idea of its importance. I don't think that he really believed that Sauron could return or that the Ring preserved a part of his evil spirit. Perhaps only Celebrimbor would have had a full understanding of the Ring's connection to Sauron, but he was gone.
 
as relayed by Gandalf, so what he quoted is all we know. Isildur's reason, as a wergild for his loss [definition: "the value of a man's life, payable to his family by his murderer"] seems reasonable, although I believe he sates that it was a thing of great beauty and he kept it although it burned his hand which suggests that it's power was working immediately to make him covet it in it's own right. I believe he must have had some idea about it, and its origin, but as only Sauron understood its true power his knowledge was likely limited. How much Elrond knew is only implied by his inclination to destroy it, but perhaps this was based primarily on the idea that creations of the Enemy were entirely evil and nothing good would come of possessing such a thing, rather than some deep knowledge of its powers if wielded by another besides its maker.
 
I believe that they were a gateway for Sauron's will, but as they were crafted by the elves that they were not inherently evil, but likely perilous for mortals - giving them a taste of elven powers which would quickly evolve into possessiveness even absent Sauron's direct influence. The Witch King's power is clearly enhanced by his ring which he wields effectively against Arnor despite Sauron's defeat, and his master's defeat does not release him from his evil ways.
 
Was he doing it to defeat Sauron, or, as he claims, "as weregild" or was he doing it out of desire for the ring
Click to expand...

I assume you meant to destroy Sauron, in which case I'd say all three.

He would have know what the ring was, or else been told, as both Elrond and Cirdan were there and recommended he throw it into the fire.

He may have disbelieved them perhaps, with Sauron already seemingly defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, or which is also likely, the ring fresh from the hand of Sauron worked its magic with him very quickly.
 
To quote the two passage in The Council of Elrond that Elrond makes concerning the event.

"I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where
Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hiltshard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.

Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel. "This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother," he said; and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it."

The scene from the Lotr film is more or less burned in my mind (and what a great scene it was too), but the actual event was at least somewhat different.

Firstly it does not say how Sauron was defeated or by who. It just mentions the three personages present. It might have been one or two or three of them together piling on like the Fellowship did when fighting the cave troll. Perhaps Sauron had been weakened/wounded somewhat by Elendil and Gil-Galad before they were killed.

Then Isildor cuts the ring from Sauron's hand. The context seems to be this is after Sauron was defeated and lay on the ground. His body killed, but since he was Maiar his spirit survived and fled away.

So without knowing what Isildur knew or thought, that is not specifically stated, I think the simplest explanation (and a reasonable theory) is this:

Just like soldiers have done forever they often loot the body of a defeated enemy. Isildur saw the ring and it attracted his attention as a suitable trophy. The ring itself, as was it's wont, probably had a hand in making Isildur desire it.

Then comes Isildur's scroll where he wrote:

"The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim."
`And after these words Isildur described the Ring, such as he found it.'
"It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was
scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The
Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain."

Read in total it does not seem that isildur had any real idea of the nature of the ring or what it could do. There is no record I believe of him ever trying to use it in any way. Like Gollum and Bilbo, Isildur did not know what it was, but knew it had special/magical powers and he couldn't bare the thought of parting with it.
 
doesn't mention being counseled to destroy the ring. Later, however, he decides to take it to Rivendell for safe keeping and is slain enroute. Perhaps what Elrond recalls is not precisely what actually happened.

Isildur says that Sauron's hand burned Gil-galad and destroyed him - so maybe Elendil dealt a mortal blow with Narsil while Sauron was throttling Gil-galad - thus Narsil was shattered and perhaps, as Merry and Eowyn learn, to strike such an enemy down can be fatal. It would make sense that Isildur would save the hilt and shards of Narsil if it had indeed pierced Sauron and dispatched his corporeal form. Was Gil-galad's lance saved? And his father's body must have lain with Sauron's, so that when he retrieved the sword and body of his father he would have seen the ring.

So what, exactly, were Cirdan, Elrond, and Isildur doing while the death match with Sauron was going down? Standing by??
 
Were the three great elven rings distributed before or after Sauron forged the One? Was it Celebrimbor who perceived Sauron's intent and then sent the three away for safe keeping? Or had he distributed them already? If he had already distributed them how is it he kept none for himself? Or was he preparing to forge another of his own but stopped when he understood Sauron's deceit do you suppose?
 
Sauron captured the 9 rings when he overthrew Eregion and also captured Celebrimbor. Then he distributed it to powerful men he planned to control. Sauron seems to have had a hand in the making of the 5 rings for dwarves and 9 rings for men, so there may have been something wrong about them, something manipulative from the beginning.
 
...about Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings is found in the Unfinished Tales chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn." In this account, the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone and he still retained sole possession of them when he learned of the One Ring. Only then did he, after consulting with Galadriel, give the Three to other Elvish leaders, to be kept secret and protected in places where Sauron would not immediately think to look for them. This is basically consistent with the much briefer summary of the Rings' history given in the Council of the Elrond.

Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age tells us that "[a]s soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger [the Elves] were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings." However, I don't think this mention of Elves, plural, is inconsistent with UT, since the Seven and the Nine were still held by the Elves at the time, and had been made by the Celebrimbor, Sauron, and others of the Mírdain collaboratively. Presumably, the Elvish Ring-bearers other than Celebrimbor in II.1600 were wearing the other sixteen Great Rings.
 
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