I know this question has probably came up many times before

Elskidor

Elskidor

Rohan
But I am fairly new to the forums. Has it ever been explained anywhere, or did Tolkien ever briefly mention the reason why the Eagles wouldn't fly the ring to Mount Doom?

Was it the Nazgul or being unable to reach the Eagles at said time? Was it for fear of them falling corrupt or Sauron spotting them and killing them? Wouldn't the Eagle's power be enough to beat the Nazgul? Simply flying them closer to Mount Doom, as they assisted the Dwarves woulda came in handy. Maybe they were worried about the spies from Saruman as well? Just a question I'm hoping a wise Tolkien scholar can answer.
 
A Google search on "eagles fly to mt doom" produced 10 pages of results!

Here's one of my favorite summaries (lightly edited):

There are three general reasons Frodo does not fly an eagle to Mordor. The first has to do with storytelling; the second with the plotlines of The Hobbit and LOTR; and the third comes from The Silmarillion and other writings.

First, Tolkien considered the Eagles to be what he called a "device," a deus ex machina that allows Frodo and Sam to be teleported to safety. Tolkien admits as much. Tales of the journey to slay the dragon/destroy the Ring are exciting and interesting - journeys home are not.

As he put it:

But would [the screenwriter] think that he had improved the effect of a film of, say, the ascent of Everest by introducing helicopters to take the climbers half way up...?

The Fellowship walks so they can have adventures. The end. Now, you could complain that this is poor storytelling. If you don't want the characters riding friendly talking Eagles, then don't introduce friendly talking Eagles. Fortunately, Tolkien does explain why, in the story, Eagles were not an option.

This second reason is revealed in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. In those two books, there are five instances where Eagles intervene. In The Hobbit, Eagles rescued Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves from the Wargs and Orcs. The Eagles intervened because they hate Wargs and Orcs, but they refused to take Gandalf and the others very far, because the Eagles have their own business to take care of and don't exist for the convenience others. Later they arrived during the Battle of Five Armies, turning the tide of the battle for the good guys. Again, this is because they hate Orcs, and not because they respond to any summons, or follow anyone's orders.

In The Fellowship of the Ring, an Eagle rescues Gandalf by accident. Gandalf had previously asked the wizard Radagast (who is replaced by a moth in LotR) to send any messages for him to Orthanc. Each of the five Wizards, had a special power. Gandalf had fire, Saruman had charisma, and the Blue Wizards had complete irrelevance. Radagast's power was friendship with birds and beasts.

It's Radagast who asked an Eagle to take a message to Gandalf. The Eagle saw that Gandalf was imprisoned on the roof of Orthanc, and carried him away. Perhaps Radagast could have convinced the Eagles to carry Frodo to Mordor, but he wasn't at the Council of Elrond.

Later, an Eagle retrieved the newly resurrected Gandalf the White from the summit of Celebdil. The reasons for this are made clear below. And finally, Gandalf got the Eagles to rescue Frodo and Sam from the violent eruption of Orodruin. This is why some people think that Eagles should have flown them to Mordor in the first place.

Why does Elrond send Nine Walkers, without steeds? Because Sauron and Saruman are both on the lookout for anyone who might have the One Ring. They are both using all the magic and manpower (orcpower?) they possess. All the roads are being watched. Some of the birds are spies. Riding horses would just bring attention to the Fellowship. And riding Eagles? Why not just construct an enormous neon sign that says in all-caps "HEY SAURON - THE RING IS RIGHT HERE."

Sure, the Eagles are able to fly safely in and out of Mordor - after Sauron is defeated. Remember the Ringwraiths? The ones with flying steeds? Maybe an Eagle could defeat a Ringwraith in an aerial battle, but I wouldn't want to be the Halfling clinging to its back. And if Sauron himself attempted to interfere with the Eagles (either the menacing humanoid Sauron of the book, or the "evil lighthouse" of the films), I would place my bets on Sauron.

No one at the Council of Elrond suggested riding Eagles because (a) Eagles don't take orders and (b) it would have drawn the attention of The Eye and insured disaster.
In 1977, Chris Tolkien published The Silmarillion, and most of those mysteries were revealed. Which brings us to our third point - what are Eagles, anyway?

Tolkien went back and forth on this, at one point writing that Eagles are just regular eagles given giant size and intellect by magical means. But canonically, according to The Silmarillion, Eagles are Maiar (lesser gods or angels) incarnated as large birds. (This goes against the canonically established fact that Eagles have offspring, but whatever.)

No matter what Eagles are, all sources agree they are servants of Manwë Súlimo, King of the Valar (greater gods or archangels), making them quite literally deus ex machina. The Eagles provide help when Manwë wishes them to do so, and only then.

Tolkien's gods, whether the Valar or Eru Ilúvatar (God) Himself, are the kind who create the world and then sit back and watch the fun, only interceding in the most extraordinary circumstances. The Eagles don't make the quest to destroy the Ring easy because the gods want mortals to solve the problem on their own. Once Frodo and Sam have completed their tasks, then the gods reward them by (a) rescuing them from certain death and (b) allowing them to make the voyage to the Uttermost West.

But what about Gandalf? Why are Eagles always rescuing him? Because Gandalf is a mortal manifestation of the Maia Olórin, sent by Manwë to aid mortals in the fight against Sauron. So Gandalf has a special hotline to divine intersession. And when he dies, the Valar send him back to try again. So the Eagles don't fly Frodo to Mordor because the gods don't want it going down that way. Makes you wonder why anyone would want to live in a universe with a capricious God, or gods, in the first place.
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So I'll repost my most detailed answer for you. [cool]


Reason 1: There are no free rides in Middle-earth
The Eagles are often referred to as a sort of deus ex machina, which swoop down out of nowhere to solve problems. I think that instead, they represent "grace", and their appearance is always a moment of Eucatastrophe, the sudden unexpected turn to good. In Tolkien's philosophy, grace is not given to prevent someone from having to face something difficult or to avoid danger, it only appears when one has exhausted all options in the struggle to do right and is exhibiting "courage without hope". This doesn't mean much to the viewer or reader who is dedicated (or conditioned) to the path of least resistance or too used to the RPG style of reckoning up strengths and advantages, but I believe it meant a lot to Tolkien.

Reason 2: The Eagles have no rings of power. The Eagles need no rings of power.
The quest to destroy the One Ring is not their problem, and definitely not their responsibility. Those involved in the question of what to do with the Ring are those involved with the Three, Seven, and Nine. The Hobbits come in because they found the One. It's up to these peoples to deal with the problem. What do Eagles know/care about rings, and why should they be responsible to fix problems that have nothing to do with them?

Reason 3: It's all who you know.
The Eagles are not humanoid, they're not a society which interacts much if at all with the "Free Peoples", and they don't take much interest in their doings. In this way, they're more like the Ents. They're generally on the side of Good and they are enemies of Orcs and Wargs, but they're not much interested in things that don't directly affect them.

In fact, the Eagles appear for only 2 reasons, either in The Hobbit or LOTR:

1) At the request of a wizard, specifically Gandalf - "The wizard and the eagle-lord appeared to know one another slightly, and even to be on friendly terms. As a matter of fact Gandalf...had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound." - Out of the Frying-Pan Into the Fire, The Hobbit

2) For battle against their particular enemies - "They did not love goblins, or fear them. When they took any notice of them at all (which was seldom, for they did not eat such creatures), they swooped on them...and stopped whatever wickedness they were doing." - Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire, The Hobbit

A look at the appearances of the Eagles in both The Hobbit and LOTR confirms this:

The Hobbit #1
The Lord of the Eagles comes to find out what the wolves and goblins are doing in his territory and rescues Gandalf from the top of his burning tree. Gandalf speaks to him and gets him to rescue the rest of his party. It is at Gandalf's request that they are then set down at the Carrock.

But the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew", he said, "for they would think that we were after their sheep. ...No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."

#2
The Eagles appear in battle to defeat the goblins. "The Eagles had long had suspicion of the goblins' mustering; from their watchfulness the movements in the mountains could not be altogether hid. So they too had gathered in great numbers....and at length smelling battle from afar they had come...."


LOTR #1:
In FOTR the book, Gandalf was rescued from Orthanc because he asked Radagast to request all birds and beasts to gather news and bring it to him there before Saruman's treason was known. In the movie, Gandalf sent the rescue request himself via moth courier.

#2:
Galadriel asked Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog and bring him to Lorien. He found him on Zirakzigil after his spirit was "sent back".

#3:
Battle at the Black Gate - Eagles appear for battle and attack the Nazgul (the only flying enemies) at the moment the Ring is about to be destroyed. The Nazgul flee, and Gandalf calls the Eagles down and makes special request for Eagles to rescue Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom (note: orc archers are no longer a factor at this point)

Now some might ask why Gandalf didn't ask the Eagles to take the Ring. See Reasons #1 and 2; Gandalf was sent to stir up the Free Peoples against Sauron, not to do everything for them or to take over their responsibilities. He participates in the Council of Elrond and he stands by the Ringbearer, and he tries to keep them from making stupid decisions, but he doesn't take over anyone's responsibility. Why would he ask the Eagles to take it over? And I'm not sure even healing the Lord of the Eagles from a wound is enough obligation to ask for that.

Besides, it wasn't as practical as some like to think. If the Eagles (in The Hobbit) thought the bows of men defending flocks of sheep made it too dangerous to fly over the southern plains, what about the thousands of Orc archers stationed all over the plains of Gorgoroth? It was quite a distance to Mordor; too long for a single flight. Where could they have safely landed unnoticed to spend the night? And they'd have to fly over the closely watched passes of the Ephel Duath on their way. And there were flying Nazgul on top of that. And we haven't even mentioned the Eye watching. Sauron is not going to miss a huge Eagle entering his territory and heading for the big fiery mountain. There is no such thing as an airborne sneak attack into anyplace as heavily guarded as Mordor. It's more like high profile suicide.

And if that weren't enough, Sauron could apparently cause Mount Doom to erupt at will. When he was ready for his attack on Gondor, he caused it to belch thick smoke and fumes continuously for days, so much that the whole sky was darkened. There's no flying over and dropping anything in an actively erupting volcano. Even some which are not actively spewing out smoke and lava can put out a great deal of poisonous gas. And then there's the heat factor. Heat rises. If the volcano was hot enough to melt the One Ring, it could be hot enough to kill anything flying directly over it.

The essence of the Ring plan was secrecy. Eagles could not have been secret enough, even were they willing to take on such a role, and I think they would not.
 
Thanks both for that response. That was a nice read, and does explain a lot on why it wasn't a possibility. I've wondered this for quite some time, but usually dismiss it as a major plot hole I'd rather pretend was never an option, so it's good to know it wasn't really ever an option.
 
Hi, Silverlode. Both your and Elizabeth's answers were very informative, thank you. However, I have one quibble on emphasis.

I get the sense that you both believe the Eagles would choose not to intercede in some cases, and Gandalf would choose not to ask them to, because it wasn't part of God's plan. That is, though they might be *capable* of some action, they would choose not to - thereby dooming untold numbers of God's children to suffering and death.

God doesn't work that way. There's an error of omission here (or oversimplification, or emphasis - or perhaps my own reading comprehension, of course. ) :)

If God's plan does not include the Eagles' participation in the Ring's journey, He'll manifest that plan indirectly. It may be through disinterest, as you say - akin to Tom Bombadil's nature rendering him inappropriate as a guardian. More likely, it's because the Eagles aren't capable of withstanding Sauron's will at the seat of his power. The difficulty Sam had passing the Watcher would be as nothing compared to Sauron's attention focused on a fully exposed ring-bearer, airborne or otherwise. (I'd assume that's more likely b/c the Eagles *do* seem fairly psychologically amenable to getting involved, there must be a capability issue.)

But that's conjecture on my part. The key point is that if God doesn't want something to happen, it won't be possible. And of course, JRR Tolkien is the God of Middle Earth. If he needs a Deus Ex Machina, he'll create one. But he's also constrained, of course, in that if he borrows from what he refers to as a more "frivolous mythology" for certain events (ie, the talking animal problem) he has to reconcile that precedent with his world's natural laws.

tl;dr - Eru Iluvatar's direct intercession isn't Catholic, imo.
 
If the characters had not gone upon the quest ... trudging through the wilderness etc.... then Rohan might still have been lost (only Merry and Pippin's arrival at precisely the right moment to incite Ent - tervention) and the Palantir would never have been in Aragorn's hands... the oath breakers would never have fulfilled their oaths....


plus... it is the journey as much as the prize that is important.. it is through hardship that one is forged
 
someone else who had the same idea as me! I thought I was a tiny voice in the wilderness on this.

Yes, IMO Eru's Song required more to happen than just the destruction of the Ring, and the Fellowship's splintered journey was his method to right a series of wrongs.
 
As noted, the Eagles were concerned about men with arrows protecting their sheep, and the orcs of Mordor would be twice as lethal. Also, their ability to carry people long distances is limited. Gandalf, Radagast, and Eru exercise good judgement and restraint in deciding when to summon them. And the Eagles are probably also wise in limiting their response to situations they know they are capable of handling.
 
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Physical stuffs: Well, all true to some extent, but of limited utility in constraining an Eagle. We already know the Eagles were perfectly capable of flying to Mt. Doom nonstop from Carcharoth and back with Hobbitses because, well, they did. And an arrowshot can only go 200 yards high, even with the stoutest yew longbow or eastern compound reflex. Not much threat there.

Restraint by Gandalf/Radagast in summoning: exactly, but there has to be some *reason* not to summon them.

Eru summoning: direct intervention by Eru/God I think is right out. This is the crux of my prior post. Tolkien was a rational, devout Catholic and his later development of Middle Earth mythology paralleled Christian philosophy. Good discussion topic. (probably already covered?) need better search skilz here [:)]
 
And, another shameless plug here!![blush] Over in the Reading Room board, we have just started the 2nd TORn amateur symposium, whereby members submit their essays on Tolkien subjects for discussion. The next essay, to be posted tomorrow, is on the topic of Eru Iluvatar and should be a very interesting discussion. Please join us![:)]
 
Can't chat if the server's up. [mad] stupid work

Also will be of limited utility until I catch up, have read every word written the day it came out through Unfinished Tales - then events conspired to remove me from my support group. Far behind now.

Very interested in this, though. I believe Tolkien painted himself into a (very comfortable) corner with his earlier, less constrained (vis a vis existence of a soul) writings.

I also believe his journey was interrupted before reaching a conclusion. hmm.. captain obvious there. His Middle Earth worldview was obviously a work-in-progress. (Wish we could go back in time and give that man a modern word processing computer, his bugbear was always organization.)
 
Physical stuffs: Well, all true to some extent, but of limited utility in constraining an Eagle. We already know the Eagles were perfectly capable of flying to Mt. Doom nonstop from Carcharoth and back with Hobbitses because, well, they did. And an arrowshot can only go 200 yards high, even with the stoutest yew longbow or eastern compound reflex. Not much threat there.
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The eagles flew Frodo and Sam back to where the West was, near the Black Gate, not nearly as far as from Rivendell or other starting points one might envision. F&S&G did get to the Black Gate. However, for the Eagles to fly them to Mt. Doom they would have faced worse than arrows: the flying Nazgûl, who were destroyed by the time of the rescue mission.
 
Nazgul air to air is reasonable - er. [:)]

cons - I'm a military history buff, "the bomber will always get through" didn't work out so well, but a 10% loss rate that'll cripple a bomber force is a pretty fair gamble compared to waddling into enemy territory on foot. (that never works for me.)

Is a Nazgul faster than an Eagle? Certainly seem stronger, if they can carry a Nazgul from Mordor to Isengard routinely. But they don't need to win, just knock one particular Eagle down. From the first bits of "The Field of Cormallen", though, Eagles probably are faster. There's also a boatload more of them. A dash to Mt. Doom seems at least worth considering, barring other circumstances. So, there must be other circumstances, in my opinion.

As Tolkien didn't chime in on this, at the end of the day we can only speculate, but Sauron's power is primarily mental and moral. In order to make an air-dash less likely to succeed than a spec-ops intrusion, even with sneaky little gits, a Watcher-type willpower barrier or something else more dependably effective seems necessary. I don't care though, Elizabeth, what it is. It's not my world. I just wish JRR was still around so's we could get him in the loop. [sorry]
 
No matter how many Eagles you send, it only matters that the one carrying the One gets through. It is clear from FotR that the Nazgul can sense the Ring, so they would certainly focus their attack effectively.

The book makes the point that Sauron's defenses do not take any cognizance of the possibility that the West would deliberately attempt to destroy the Ring. That's just beyond Sauron's comprehension, and hence his most vulnerable spot.

And I quite agree with your wish that the Author were around to explain!
 
4-Helicopter-Tour.jpg


And worse, no second breakfast service.
 
...airlines tend to lose luggage and the thought that some random baggage handler in Albuquerque might become the new Dark Lord was just too terrible to contemplate.
 
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