I dont understand this!!!!!!
- Thread starter TheNazgul
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“Look!” he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that
had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a
slash. “This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,” he said, “The only hurt that it did
to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that
dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.”
had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a
slash. “This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,” he said, “The only hurt that it did
to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that
dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.”
CuriousG
Half-elven
I was confused by this on my first readings. A lot of things happen quickly in this part of the book, and I was left with the impression that Frodo had at least scratched the Nazgul since he had torn his garment. You'd think if you stabbed someone and tore their clothes, you wouldn't just stab at air. But that is all that happened.
The Witch King of Angmar was a wraith (had been "wraithed" according to Tom Shippey) and not a spirit without body. The bodies of the Nazul had been translated into a different plane of existence which placed them beyond ordinary attack. To harm ole Wiki-Gul required warriors that met special criteria wielding special weapons. Frodo met these criteria but he missed and ruined the WiKi's favorite cloak.[angelic]
Morthoron
Grey Havens
...regarding the word 'disembodied', but in the case of the Nazgul, there would be no hair to split. Or rather, invisible hair lacks the wherewithal for one to split with any degree of certainty. But Nazgul could very well have had split ends, as their hair had no body at all.
Perhaps the Elves could supply some conditioner, as their hair always seemed quite lustrous. [
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Perhaps the Elves could supply some conditioner, as their hair always seemed quite lustrous. [
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squire
Half-elven
I believe you are making up the idea that the cloak was the Witch-king's favorite. It was not, as far as I know.
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him, piercing only the cursed cloak which he had long loathed. How had he come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger. (J.R.R. Tolkien, Marquette MSS 4/2/36, The Hunt for the Ring, in Hammond & Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion, 2005, 180)
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him, piercing only the cursed cloak which he had long loathed. How had he come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger. (J.R.R. Tolkien, Marquette MSS 4/2/36, The Hunt for the Ring, in Hammond & Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion, 2005, 180)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
I've just never understood why the Nazgul withdrew after the attack. Even if dismayed by Aragorn's torches, they could have withdrawn to a safe but visible distance to keep an eye on the party and stalk them. It would still have been nine against five (one of the five wounded), and they could keep them under surveillance instead of losing track of them altogether. And they did defeat Gandalf (or fight him to a standstill) and then drive him off, so they should have felt confident.
But outlining the WiKing's thoughts via JRR as you did answers all my questions. We never get his outlook in the story, of course, just the perspective of the hobbits, who are always terrified of the Black Riders. But the Nazgul had reasons to be dismayed, and their doubts explains their subsequent actions. 20 years of mysteries put to rest for me!
But outlining the WiKing's thoughts via JRR as you did answers all my questions. We never get his outlook in the story, of course, just the perspective of the hobbits, who are always terrified of the Black Riders. But the Nazgul had reasons to be dismayed, and their doubts explains their subsequent actions. 20 years of mysteries put to rest for me!
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Which is that the Witch-king wasn't actually properly killed by Merry and Eowyn. He was just temporaly disembodied the same way that the Nazgul were by the floods outside Rivendell earlier. He might have been put out of action for a little while, a year maybe, but he would have been back. Had not the Ring been destroyed. That was what really destroyed him.
PhantomS
Rohan
It was already prophesized by Glorfindel that he would fall by a hand not of man , and when Merry stabbed him clean through the knees something clearly happenned that unbound him and allowed Eowyn to kill him by stabbing him in the face. No one really knew about that kind of weapon, and even Denethor only guessed its origin and not its methods of making; hence the WK was probably killed for good thinking that none of those blades ever existed anymore. If Sauron is peeved by Anduril, the WK should be scared of the Barrow Blades.
One reason why the Nazgul never seemed to come back between Rivendell and Moria, then Moria to Lorien is probably because their horses had died and their 'wrappings' were broken, so they couldn't do their 'sniffing around' properly without them. The WK is clad in armor and clearly doesn't want to lose his casing (so to speak) during the Pelennor Fields, plus he's riding a terrible ,near invincible beast. The Nazgul also couldn't continue their chase towards Rivendell due to Elrond's power and Galadriel's when in Lothlorien- then Saruman interfered at the Two Hills, and they lost the scent. Even if they had reformed earlier, they'd be dead blind as to the trail, now that others had covered it up; Gandalf and Elrond did only stun them out of solid existence but crucially blinded them to Frodo's next move.
At Amon Hen the Nazgul probably backed off, since Sauron was facing Frodo directly after he put the Ring on.
FarFromHome
Valinor
in Middle-earth (except, it seems, for the orcs...). The spirit lives on, so all death is "disembodiment" to that extent. In fact, the Ring-wraiths are already dead (as we humans define it) - already wraiths, or spirits, with no real bodily presence. Their creepy power lies in the fact that their spirits have not left the world, but continue to haunt it. Once they lose their horses and garments, they lose their "shape", but they are still in the world, as we hear from Gandalf:
"I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless." (The Council of Elrond)
But when Merry and Eowyn finally defeat the Witch-king, even his spirit seems to be banished from the world:
"a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
That sounds like much more than the mere loss of garments that happened at the Ford of Bruinen. And it fits in with Tolkien's comments on the Witch-king's fear of the barrow-swords:
"...[the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed... above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction." (quoted by squire)
You may certainly be right that if the Ring had not been destroyed, and Sauron had regained his power, the Witch-king's spirit might have been recalled from the void. To that extent, nothing really dies - evil can always return. But it can be at least temporarily banished from the world, and I think that's what happens on the Pelennor (but not at the Ford of Bruinen).
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Curious
Half-elven
that the Nazgul retreated from Weathertop in part because they discovered the hobbits were equipped with Barrow blades that could harm them. Strider did not realize this, nor, of course, did the hobbits, but in hindsight it is one possible explanation. Between Weathertop and the Ford, the Witchking prepared a spell that shattered Frodo's blade.
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
but I remember now that it has disturbed me during some readings. I think your explanations of Weathertop and of Frodo's sword make perfect sense.
And the blade shattering not only mirrors Narsil, but gives Bilbo an additional reason to present Frodo with Sting. I think he already had reasons--but Frodo being without a sword at all would have made Bilbo's gift even more imperative.
And the blade shattering not only mirrors Narsil, but gives Bilbo an additional reason to present Frodo with Sting. I think he already had reasons--but Frodo being without a sword at all would have made Bilbo's gift even more imperative.
squire
Half-elven
I have to confess, before this goes any further, that the passage I excerpted from previously unpublished notes by Tolkien about the Nazguls' motives at Weathertop was completely accurate EXCEPT for the words
"...piercing only the cursed cloak which he had long loathed."
Everything else is Tolkien. I swear. You can look it up in Hammond & Scull's LotR Reader's Companion, Houghton Mifflin, 2005, p. 205.