Howard Shore hires external orchestrators for DOS instead of doing it himself

[TheHutt]

According to an article from German site Herr-der-ringe-film.de, Howard Shore will not continue doing both composing and orchestrating / conducting the score for "The Desolation of Smaug". To do that, he is looking for external specialists, so called "orchestrators" who adapt written music to the actual film edit. Clifford J. Tasner (orchestrator on Life of Pi, Harry Potter & The Deathly Hallows et al) has already been hired; there is also talk about hiring Conrad Pope as well who orchestrated many film scores, among others by John Williams, Danny Elfman et al.

What do you think about this? I somehow don't like the idea. Howard Shore is one of the few composers who wrote the score as well as orchestrated and conducted it. I would love to see him sticking to the high standards he had set for the LOTR trilogy. Using third-party orchestrators looks like cutting corners to me.

Source: http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/...ilme/news_107712.php

 

[Magpie]

Nothing big. Shore is using a couple of orchestrators on the score this time out. Clifford J. Tasner is confirmed, Conrad Pope is in discussions.

Shore used orchestrator Homer Denison on a regular basis for the first 15-or-so years of his career. From The Fly to Analyze This. He hasn't used orchestrators recently, but it's not at all unusual for composers on giant projects with sharp deadlines. Williams uses them all the time. Goldsmith did, too. It's actually quite rare for a film composer not to, in fact. Only Morricone leaps to mind -- and Herrmann back in the day.

Some composers depend on orchestrators to translate their unwieldy mock-ups to something a live human orchestra can actually play. This is not the case with Shore, of course. His sketches are detailed and essentially complete, so the orchestrators' job is perhaps best likened to copy work. This isn't to belittle the job; it's still a ton of work. But this will all be seamless behind-the-scenes stuff. It won't change the final result in any perceptible way. It's still all Shore's music.

http://www.musicoflotr.com/2013/06/drak.html#comment-931206551

Why does it not surprise me that someone wouldn't like this idea and thinks Shore isn't sticking to high standards. I mean, I just don't get this trend to jump to the worst case motivation for any action someone takes.

 

[Escapist]

I remember at one point, discussion came up about full-on hiring some other group to do some of the music. I remember how much the boards blew up about that issue.

I don't know, maybe he has other things to do, maybe he has grown tired of it, maybe he has already done a lot of the music in the movie, maybe there are a lot of people sharing a common desire for that music and someone else wants their shot at it too?

 

[dormouse]

...seems to be routine around here, no matter what the issue. It becomes very wearing.

 

[TheHutt]

Why does it not surprise me that someone wouldn't like this idea and thinks Shore isn't sticking to high standards.

Well, he did set them with LOTR. I like the idea of him being the mastermind between every nuance of the music, which has been subject of books by Doug Adams and many analyses by several enthusiasts.

I wonder if this level of quality would be still possible to maintain for such a score orchestrated by some hired professionals. It will probably still 10x better than your average Hans Zimmer score, but it won't be a 100% Shore.

PS: Morricone and Herrmann are not the worst people representing the trade.

 

[The Grey Elf]

Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of a doubt? Howard Shore deserves that and Magpie's post puts it all in perspective. Let's everybody own what they don't know about a situation before rushing to judgement.

 

[bborchar]

...we don't know WHY he's doing it. Maybe his workload is too full...maybe he's got something else going on in his private life. It's not like he just stopped composing them...he's just having someone else orchestrate them. Let's give him a break. I had to once quit a job because I kept missing time, and I was accused of being lazy. The truth was that I was so sick I almost died and no doctor had diagnosed it. I'm not the only person to keep my private life private.

 

[Magpie]

"It seems like there have been questions about the music for a long time now. "​

is such a well crafted bit of innuendo.

There has been beaucoup loads of *questions* and aspersions and accusations of all sorts about all aspects of The Hobbit movies and all people connected with them. I take less than 20% of them as having any knowledge of what they're talking about.

"I remember at one point, discussion came up about full-on hiring some other group to do some of the music. "​

I will guess you are talking about Plan 9, sometimes credited as the members of that group, along with David Long who did some stuff with the Plan 9 folks in LOTR, although I don't know (off hand) if he has contributed to Hobbit music.

Plan 9 was hired to do the diegetic, non-score music of the movie. Shore was hired to do the score music. If this is the situation you were referring to, what is problematic about that? Be a bit specific with your criticisms so they can be addressed.

"I remember how much the boards blew up about that issue."​

If you're talking about Plan 9, I don't remember any 'blowing up.' I don't follow The Hobbit board all that closely but the score interests me and I do follow pretty much all music threads pretty closely. I will counter your statement with my own perspective: the boards did not blow up. I can't speak about whether particular individuals blew up.

"I don't know, maybe he has other things to do, maybe he has grown tired of it,"​

You're right. You don't know. But you seem comfortable guessing at all the things that would reflect most badly on another person with all that you don't know.

Look, I'll be really honest. It bugs me that people feel so comfortable looking at something and putting a negative spin on it from the get-go. Especially when the situation is one they really have no direct knowledge of. Especially when the craft involved is something they have no experience of. And especially when they are speaking about people I respect and have a good opinion of and who I think is not capable of the bad things they are being accused of.

But really, it wouldn't matter whether I liked the person or didn't much care for them. Speaking badly about people in public when we don't really know what the situation is doesn't reflect well on us as individuals. At least, that's how I walk in the world. I've pretty much had to accept that not everyone seems to think like that. It makes me sad and sometimes a bit annoyed. We are, or can be, better people than this.

 

[Magpie]

I rise up from my state of weariness on this into strong annoyance.

and since my tongue is starting to hurt with all the biting, I will simply hit the post reply button.

 

[Magpie]

he set a standard of doing 125% rather than a damn good job.

Let's light into him if he cranks it back to a mere 101%.

I'm sure we all hold ourselves to these very high standards and fully expect to be called on it when we let some of our own extreme expectations for personal perfection fall a little here and there. Sure, most of those people calling us out might not have any clue what is going on... but that's how this world works.

Are you worried you won't get your money's worth when you buy that ticket?

 

[Shagrat]

The stresses of the AUJ post-production (which seems to have resulted in a lot of last-minute musical changes) means this may well turn out to be for the best, if Shore can concentrate on writing and they can streamline the process. I can't see it being a problem given the renowned meticulousness of Shore's notes.

 

[Magpie]

When I see people calling out for what they want from other people with no consideration about what the other person's situation may be, it really bothers me.


For every situation where we wonder why someone isn't doing something we thought they would do or think they should do or wish they would do... we should hold off on judgement -- especially in terms of negative judgement --until we get some facts.

It's one thing to express disappointment in situations like this. It's another to attribute one's disappointment to another person acting badly or irresponsibly when one doesn't really know what is going on and doesn't understand the industry (of film scoring).

 

[Magpie]

Why, Shagrat. You just might have read what Doug said!

(by the way... you replied to me, perhaps because my post was last in the flat mode display... but I think you meant to reply to the original post, correct?)

Because your comment about "meticulousness of Shore's notes" echoed what Doug said (requoted from the larger comment in another post in this thread.)

Some composers depend on orchestrators to translate their unwieldy mock-ups to something a live human orchestra can actually play. This is not the case with Shore, of course.

His sketches are detailed and essentially complete, so the orchestrators' job is perhaps best likened to copy work.

This isn't to belittle the job; it's still a ton of work. But this will all be seamless behind-the-scenes stuff.

It won't change the final result in any perceptible way.

It's still all Shore's music.

emphasis mine

Thanks for your confidence that a good composer, beloved by many, will do the same exemplary job he's always done with The Hobbit score.

 

[sauget.diblosio]

it's necessarily irresponsible to question this move given all the concerns that came up with the AUJ score, deservedly or not. And your post concerning the Doug Adams quote cleared everything up quite nicely. Anyone who's not as well versed in the creation of a music score might easily be alarmed by such a departure, and this is the exact forum for such discusions to take place.

 

[Bombadil]

Maybe Howard needs some specilists to get things right...
Example, he put a variety of Obscure instruments in The Rohan theme,
and Bomby is thinking the Music of Laketown
should be quite exotic and ancient
Eastern Europe feeling...
Nothing is a "One MAN Show"
anymore.

 

[Magpie]

the OP continued to question things with a negative slant even after the Adams quote.

And this is a trend I see in lots of places that highly displeases me. 98% of the time I roll my eyes and walk away. Sometimes I won't.

Shore is someone I admire, I met, and grew to admire more. People can choose their words carefully and they won't get responses like mine. Take some responsibility for what you write and how you write or expect people to call you on it.

But if want to write inflammatory posts, you can't then jump on people stepping up to counter them.

And with that, I will give this up to wherever the people most determined to take it will take it.

 

[Elenorflower]

to ask questions about things that concern you.

 

[entmaiden]

It's possible that Howard Shore reached out to some specialists for some of the music, to make sure certain themes have a different voice.

 

[Roheryn]

You're right. You don't know. But you seem comfortable guessing at all the things that would reflect most badly on another person with all that you don't know.

Look, I'll be really honest. It bugs me that people feel so comfortable looking at something and putting a negative spin on it from the get-go. Especially when the situation is one they really have no direct knowledge of. Especially when the craft involved is something they have no experience of. And especially when they are speaking about people I respect and have a good opinion of and who I think is not capable of the bad things they are being accused of.

But really, it wouldn't matter whether I liked the person or didn't much care for them. Speaking badly about people in public when we don't really know what the situation is doesn't reflect well on us as individuals. At least, that's how I walk in the world. I've pretty much had to accept that not everyone seems to think like that. It makes me sad and sometimes a bit annoyed. We are, or can be, better people than this.

Thanks, Magpie. That was nicely written. If everyone here took this to heart, this board would be a friendlier and more pleasant place to play.

It's lovely to see you involved in a music thread, as always!

 

[sauget.diblosio]

i didn't find what the op and others said all that inflammatory, and i must admit, the same concerns popped into my head when i first read the post. But the ever-dependable Doug Adams' quote took care of that for me. I agree with much of what you said, though. I just always love it when Howard Shore's scores come up as a topic on these boards, and what you and others bring to the discussion, and just thought that the op's concerns, though possibly overstated, were valid-- no one wants anything less than HS's typical greatness when it comes to these scores.