First viewing - "Sam will kill him if he tries anything".

[sador]

I haven’t had the opportunity to report on our previous sitting, which was very short; so now I need to report of two viewings, the second of which is chock-full of events.

It appears that the title of my previous report was not recognized – it was Grishnakh’s words to Pippin and Merry, while trying to smuggle them from the battlefield. This report’s title is easier – many might never have read the source, but I guess that those who did (and do not suppress the memory) will identify it quickly. [evil]


On last Thursday, we followed Gandalf and Pippin to Minas Tirith - which Elboron says excites him each time he sees it, both as widescreen and as detail shots. I asked him whether he remembered seeing it, and after a short thought he remembered the old archive where Gandalf found the Scroll of Isildur.
Elboron was very impressed by the silent Hall of Kings, but interestingly made no comment regarding Denethor. However, when Pippin had the flashback about Boromir’s death, Elboron winced again whenever Boromir was hit – that scene had really got him!
I was struck with Gandalf’s insensitivity regarding Denethor’s grief for Boromir. I wonder whether this wasn’t the reason for Denethor to lash out at him, seeing through the wizard’s political agenda? I have often complained about the belittling of Denethor’s personality in the film; but perhaps this might be an explanation? Just for the fun of it, compare to the scene after Gandalf’s fall, when Boromir argued with the wizard’s prime pupil that the hobbits should have time to cope with their grief. Hmm. But of course, the filmmakers never intended it in that way.

Elboron was very interested in the history as explained in the conversation named The Decline of Gondor, as well as by the old King by the crossroads. He asked whether it was one of the kings he knew – to which I replied it was probably one of the kings whose statues were in niches in the Hall at Minas Tirith. Interestingly enough, he made no comment on how Denethor knew where Aragorn was – in the appendices, John Noble spoke about the effects of watching the palantir. Do you see any hint of it in the films?

And then we had the scene on the balcony in Minas Tirith, when Gandalf and Pippin look out to Mordor. In fact, I have mentioned this scene in the RR today. Elboron was naturally fascinated with the list of Sauron’s allies (no Easterlings! []), and especially with the Witch-king of Angmar (of which there is no screencap I really like in the library [unsure]) – which meant he was fascinated by Minas Morgul. But then I realized there is going to be no good place to stop, so I stopped there. Silly me!

At night, Elboron said he was actually happy not to go to bed with the Witch-king as the last image in his mind, although why would the Dead City be better?
However, he did pester me with questions about the kingdom of Angmar. I told him a bit, and asked him to figure out how this might influence Denethor’s attitude towards Aragorn. Apparently, this was a bit too difficult for him. [sorry]
I also asked him if he remembered when we saw Minas Morgul before. He didn’t remember – not even after I reminded him.


In our second sitting, the pace was steeped up, and many scenes (some of them quite spectacular, in my opinion) followed each other in rapid progression. But at first Elboron confessed that he was quite frightened at the thought of Frodo being so near the Chief Nazgul’s lair. I feel so bad about it!
So the first thing we saw were the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, which made Elboron rather apprehensive (and me giddy), then Frodo started walking up the gleaming road to the Tower (which made him cry out ‘Frodo! Don’t!’), and as he was pulled off the road, Minas Morgul flared up. Elboron was terrified! He was sure at first that the hobbits were found out (which I am sure was what Peter meant), and when he understood that it was a quite coincidental signal for Sauron’s army to start marching – the view did not quite cheer him up. Apparently, my decision where to stop on the previous time was justified.
Elboron probably didn’t even notice Sam’s threatening Gollum, and he sure didn’t register Gandalf’s encouraging Pippin to do something.

However, he did recognize Osgiliath and was repelled by the one-eyed Gothmog (sorry, the best image is from a later scene); and as the battle for the crossing of the river progressed, and it was clear that Faramir cannot hold out, he became naturally more and more worried.

When Pippin first climbed up to light the Minas Tirith beacon, escaping the fire in the last moment, Elboron thought at first this was another stupid prank by the Fool of a Took! [shocked] [sly] As I said before, he didn’t register Gandalf’s words. It also took him some time to understand the purpose of the lighting of the beacons, although the music had cheered him up already – and when he did, that was very uplifting moment for him! Another point scored by the filmmakers.
I don’t think Elboron ever doubted that Theoden would answer the summons, but he really loved his accepting Merry’s offer of service, as well as the recruiting of the Rohirrim.

I wished I could have stopped at this high point, but it was not bedtime yet, and Elboron wanted to see more – so we watched the Fall of Osgiliath, and the death of poor Madril. I wasn’t really surprised to note how much my son was affected by the death of a minor character, but was still touched.
As was only to be expected, Elboron was very excited when The White Rider was revealed, and fortunately didn’t notice the abasolute absurdity of Pippin’s joining him. However, this curious mistake of the filmmakers (as far as I know, it was a scion of an older storyline, in which Gandalf meets the retreating Faramir on his way to Minas Tirith, which remained after the storyline was changed and wasn’t noticed until too late) – made Faramir’s first view of Pippin very effective.

And then came that magnificent scene, one of the best in the trilogy in my opinion – The Wizard’s Pupil. Really, I hardly understand why it was cut out of the TE! I feel it is very poignant, especially with Faramir’s realizing that Boromir would take the Ring for himself, and declaring that he would not use it even as a very last resort.
It made me think – did Faramir’s epiphany come at Minas Morgul? Or is this a second stage, reached only now after hearing his father’s wisdom of not using the Ring until defeat becomes inevitable, and contrasting it with his confident words in Osgiliath as Boromir set out, that the ring is a weapon which might yet win the War?
Also, regarding Denethor – is he now lying? Or has he indeed come to a greater (but still insufficient) wisdom regarding the ring, based on his research since Boromir left? (In the book, Gandalf suggests something like this might have happened) And most important – is his rage at Faramir only because of his misjudgment, even deliberate crossing of the Steward’s will – or is it because of his betraying the memory of Boromir, who has not been properly mourned yet? At least, his vision of the two brothers implies so.

But here I go on rambling, when I should be reporting on Elboron’s reactions. Sadly, there is little to report – save that he was by now very tired, and exhausted by the very dramatic sequence he had seen. So I bid him good night.

 

[entmaiden]

from recounting the entire history of Middle-earth when Elboron was asking questions. You are showing great restraint, and keeping Elboron's interest engaged so maybe he'll want to read more.

Thanks for the reports. I notice that Elboron isn't making as many comparisons to The Hobbit, which tells me he is fully engulfed in the story.

 

[Wraith Buster]

These posts are interesting!
Who is his favorite character?

 

[Arwen Skywalker]

I credit this scene for making Faramir my favorite character. It really establishes his courage and ability to keep a level head in very difficult circumstances. As for why Denethor is so angry at him, Darkstone explains this better than I could. And on top of that, he doesn't want to believe that Boromir would have taken the Ring for himself instead of bringing it back as a gift. I don't think the hallucination was needed to people to get that. On the other hand, something about Boromir in Denethor's vision just seems wrong. I think he's remembering Boromir as the son he wants him to be instead of who he really was. This scene also drives home the comparisons to King Lear that John Noble so often makes about Denethor. Boromir isn't a villian like Goneril and Regan but he certainly didn't "remember his father's need" like Faramir.

When you ask if Denethor is lying, are you referring to him saying that the Ring should go to the Citadel for safekeeping? I didn't think he was but either way, he's still overconfident in his ability to resist the Ring.

Personally, I think Faramir's epiphany came when Sam told him what happened to Boromir. I interpreted what he said as another sign that he took Sam's words to heart.

As for why Sauron thinks Pippin has the Ring, well, this article says the Witch King (I think Frodo encountered him in Osgiliath) has the worst optimetrist in Middle Earth. They're only talking about his peripheral vision but it might be a possible explanation as to why he can't tell hobbits apart.

 

[sador]

I notice that Elboron isn't making as many comparisons to The Hobbit, which tells me he is fully engulfed in the story.

My first reaction is that he simply has nothing to compare to - but he might have compared the attack on Osgiliath to Esgaroth; and he surely might have connected Fangorn to Mirkwood (which Pippin and Merry do in Treebeard).

I think my best success is that even though Elboron can get the books in the library, and even knows I think the books superior by far to the movies - he still restrains himself from grabbing them, because he treasures our viewings together and doesn't want to spoil them.

 

[sador]

macfalk has asked them same question before, when we were towards the end of The Two Towers.
Back then, Elboron's favourites were Gandalf, Sam and Gimli.

 

[sador]

I credit this scene for making Faramir my favorite character.

Yes, I really like it. It's such a pity that it was cut out of the TE!

This scene also drives home the comparisons to King Lear that John Noble so often makes about Denethor. Boromir isn't a villian like Goneril and Regan but he certainly didn't "remember his father's need" like Faramir.

I was aware of Darkstone's explanation, and even think I've linked to it in a previous thread.
However, I do quite resent to King Lear. Denethor is not a crazed old father, but a great ruler who was frayed by constant struggling with an adverary far too great to defeat, while his position and authority is being undermined by those who profess to be his allies.
My beef with the movies is that while they showed (and enhanced) the melodrama, they didn't show the greatness of the man, making his fall anything but interesting or touching - merely a spoke in Gandalf's wheels, an challange Pippin has to overcome to grow up, a reason to pity Faramir, and an obstacle to Aragorn's being crowned - which is however conviniently out of the way when the Ranger arrives in town.

The movie did notice the undermining of his position by Gandalf, but dissed it as 'vain ambition', while glancing over the fact that Gandalf's words "authority is not given to you to deny the return of the King" is a downright untruth (within the books) - after all, that's what the Stewards did long ago, when the Council of Gondor ruled that the Arnor line had no claim to the throne; and once Minas Tirith has a 'Hall of Kings', this must mean that the film accepts appendix A, and the line of Gondorian kings not descended from Isildur.
I was wondering whether something else might be considered the motive for Denethor's going over the top - and Gandalf's rude scolding to him not to mourn over Boromir (just compare to his comforting Theoden after Theodred's funeral!) seems to be such a motive, only enhanced when Faramir threw out at him that he believes that Boromir would have fallen. "Ever you try to cast me in a bad light" (or something to the effect) - and now that your brother is dead, you are mudslinging at his good name!

And Boromir did remember his father's need, in those scenes with Aragorn, both at Lorien and just after (or is it just before?) passing the Argonath. And I have just a bit of a guess that Denethor actually knew Boromir better than Gandalf did, and that if Boromir was in Faramir's place he would have acted as Denethor says (in The Siege of Gondor). Of course, anyone might guess otherwise.

When you ask if Denethor is lying, are you referring to him saying that the Ring should go to the Citadel for safekeeping?

Yes.
It seems to be in stark contradiction to his directing Boromir to bring the Ring to Gondor in The Sons of the Steward; he speaks there of it as a weapon which would change the fortunes of the War, and claims Boromir is strong enough to cope with the corrupting effect of the Ring.
So I was wondering how to resolve this contradiction.

Personally, I think Faramir's epiphany came when Sam told him what happened to Boromir.

Yes, I remember your saying that when we discussed Osgiliath. []

As for why Sauron thinks Pippin has the Ring

...

This actually belongs to the previos thread.
Anyway, I simply think that Merry made this assertion (a thought which Gandalf probably shares), because he has no way of knowing that the Ring was in Osgiliath, let alone that it was sensed there by on of the Nazgul.
In the movie, Pippin doesn't recount his interview with Sauron, so there is no way to know what this conclusion was based upon; in the book he does, and in two weeks time we will discuss what Sauron really thought. Stay tuned! [angelic]

 

[Kyriel]

And the worst is yet to come, with RotK ahead of him! I'm glad he has his father there to hug him and reassure him during the scariest parts.

I must say, he sounds like a very sweet kid, to be touched by the death of even a very minor character. And I'm sure that, since he is getting into the story so much, he'll be a fan for life.

 

[FarFromHome]

just how intense RotK is. It really does start building the tension early, with one scary thing after another happening. When you watch the whole film, the resolution gives you such a rush of relief that it feels like you've been on a roller-coaster! But I think it's going to be hard to find places to stop on the way "up" the roller-coaster...

 

[entmaiden]

but it's so nice you're building this memory with your son. He will treasure the time you've spent together, and the story (book and movie) will always be a reminder to him, and probably to you, of watching for the first time.

 

[Arwen Skywalker]

It seems to be in stark contradiction to his directing Boromir to bring the Ring to Gondor in The Sons of the Steward; he speaks there of it as a weapon which would change the fortunes of the War, and claims Boromir is strong enough to cope with the corrupting effect of the Ring.

To me, whether Denethor lied about it is not that important. As I said before, it only matters that he has an inflated idea about his ability to resist the Ring's corruption.

And Boromir did remember his father's need, in those scenes with Aragorn, both at Lorien and just after (or is it just before?) passing the Argonath.

Yes, Boromir was a caring son and I was really impressed that he didn't badmouth his father to Aragorn. But I thought what Denethor meant by "remember his father's need" was strictly bringing him "a kingly gift." Boromir completely forgot about that by trying to seize the Ring from Frodo for personal use. The reason Faramir was tempted in the first place was because he anticipated "his father's need" (I'm assuming he didn't hear Denethor and Boromir's hushed conversation in Osgiliath). I don't deny that Denethor wasn't served well by the movies but even the book version had the wrong idea about Faramir's loyalties. Just as Lear has the wrong idea of Cordelia's loyalties.

I was wondering whether something else might be considered the motive for Denethor's going over the top - and Gandalf's rude scolding to him not to mourn over Boromir (just compare to his comforting Theoden after Theodred's funeral!)

I never thought of it before. Then again, I'm sure Gandalf has a much friendlier past with Theoden. I think movie-Denethor started going over the top with Boromir's death and it surely doesn't help for Gandalf to just tell him to mourn later.

 

[weaver]

I like your comparison between the grieving scene outside of Moria and Denethor grieving for Boromir in this part of ROTK -- things to Boromir, and now his father, are focused on "loss", while Aragorn at Moria, and Gandalf here, choose to take action, to move into a new direction immediately, rather than to allow people time to wallow in grief. They were both right, I think -- getting people on their feet, and moving, or to call for aid, were psychologically better things to do right then, rather than feeling overwhelmed and paralyzed by sorrow -- particularly since the stakes were so high in both cases, if no action was taken. Interesting that Boromir and Denethor share the tendency to let loss overwhelm them.

I think your instincts are good about showing your son this part of the film in bits and pieces if you can -- it is a pretty overwhelming emotional experience. But it's also so compelling, it's hard not to want to watch the whole thing. Your idea to try to end on one of the positive moments each night is right on, much better to have him go to bed dreaming of beacons instead of monsters..

I too like the Wizard's Pupil scene -- very fine acting by both Noble and Wenham. The ROTK EE scenes with Faramir are the only ones, of all the EE scenes, that I really wish had been in the TE. They really do a lot for both characters, and their part of the story.

My take on Denethor is that he's a vain, proud man, who cannot accept his own culpability in what's happened to his city and to his sons. Contrast that with Theoden, who blamed himself for what happened at Rohan, and to Theodred, though both were not "of his making". In both cases, both rulers get sidetracked by this and it delays them taking action. Theoden, though, because he takes responsibility, is redeemed, Denethor, who denies things, is not.

I think Faramir made a "heart" decision at Osgiliath, when he let Frodo go -- he did what felt right, the counter-intuitive thing, rather than the logical, safe thing. In the Wizard's Pupil scene, I think he gets validation for that choice -- Denethor's reaction really helps him to realize it was the right thing to do. I don't know if Denethor, in the films, really had any sense of what the Ring could do -- I think he was just desperate for something that would change things in a way that would allow him to win without facing any of the factors that would lead him to acknowledge his faults, and those of Boromir. Faramir, I think, becomes his target here because in this scene he hits perilously close to a point where Denethor has to face a reality he does not want to see. And so he lashed out at him, and rejects him, rather than accepting the truth.

 

[sador]

And it does get worse - as I suppose will be seen once I write the next report.

 

[sador]

That was the way you explained Theoden here.

Regarding Denethor's grief - I don't think that hiding one son's death from him, and then not allowing him to recover, because you still want him to play the role you assign him is getting him on his feet. Denethor was right in that - for all his subtlety and far-reaching schemes, Gandalf had not wisdom - he didn't realise that Pippin would not be able to confront Denethor and still hold his tongue, and didn't calculate the effects of having his deep game exposed.

As a matter of fact, I could chalk it down to Gandalf's being a Maia, and therefore less sensitive to death - but his beautiful comforting of Theoden, and the 'Far, Green Country' conversation show otherwise. The best I can say for him here is that he already realised that Denethor was a subversive type, putting his own agenda before the common good (blindly rather than cynically, but the result is still the same), and that Pippin's vision in the palantir somehow led him to the conclusion that Denethor was about to fall.

 

[Pryderi]

Knowing you as I do Sador you may well have read Michael Drout's article in Volume One of Tolkien Studies and been unconvinced. Nevertheless Arwen Skywalker, on my reading of the article, is in good company. Just in case you have not come across it, it may be found here: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/tolkien_studies/toc/tks1.1.html. Just scroll down to Drout's article "Tolkien's Prose Style and its Literary and Rhetorical Effects". I was not unconvinced by the article.

Pryderi.

 

[dernwyn]

Of such a BoTR-worthy parody? []

Elboron should rest assured, that he is not the only person who winces whenever Boromir takes an arrow! That's good, that he remembered the scene in the Gondorian archives with Gandalf, and where it took place.

I also like that he wondered if the statue of the king at the crossroads had been a "king he knew". He's having a lot of fun trying to fit all these pieces together!

I'm not surprised that he at first thought Pippin's lighting of the beacon was a prank. Well, it really was - but it was one instigated by Gandalf! []

Was Elboron able to discern how disappointed Denethor was with his son? That must have quite an emotional impact for a young boy!

 

[sador]

I suspect you don't me that well, if you think me much of a scholar. Just now I am in the middle of reading Splintered Light for the first time. So I haven't read that essay before breakfast today, and in fact didn't even know that Tolkien Studies was online; but now the link was added to my favourites, for further use at lunch. []

Drout's essay is very interesting. I have never read anything by him (except for one blogpost NEB once linked to, IIRC) but it seems very worthwhile.

Regarding the point he makes - I am sure that Tolkien knew King Lear very well, and it is indeed a major text for discussing the duties of kings. And Tom Shippey has shown (Author of the Century is the one Tolkien-criticism book I have read) that Tolkien used even Milton as a source; so the use of Lear isn't surprising in itself; but Drout has gone further, and established that Tolkien regarded King Lear very highly.

As far as I understand, Arwen Skywalker took the Denethor = Lear connection to equate Boromir = Goneril and Regan, with which I disagree strongly. And I also think that Lear is never shown to be as great as Denethor is, which was my major quibble. On the other hand, it is so hard to pity Denethor, which is completely lacking of pity himself.
Lear is a reed - he sways to and fro in the tempestuous wind, but still clings of to dear life until he is completely shriveled from within; but Denethor is a cypress (if I may allude to a poem by Yehuda_Amichai), strong and heroic - until he is overpowered and breaks.

And aside - Drout's elliptic comparison of Denethor to the Witch-king resonates with my often-repeated UUT that a major motive of Denethor's suicide and attempt to murder Faramir was the fear lest they be caught alive, and coerced into accepting a Ring from Sauron's hands (in that post, I've also enlarged upon Denethor's lack of pity).

Thank you for your response, and for this resource! I will surely use it. []

 

[sador]

After... um... once... err... if we finish the BotR discussion?

 

[Arwen Skywalker]

The point I was trying to make is that when Boromir tries to take the Ring for himself, he, like Goneril and Regan, is going against his father's wishes. Again, Boromir is in a completely different ballpark from those two in terms of scale and severity. He was having an emotional meltdown while G and R premeditated their power grab (without being under the influence of an evil object to boot). And most importantly, he actually took steps to correct the mistake. I'll add that the Boromir/Goneril and Regan similarity isn't as strong as Denethor/Lear's but it's there nonetheless. I know I sent you moreorless's post before but it has the reason I think this way.

I've actually never heard of Michael Drout before so I'll give a shout out to Pryderi for the link.

 

[sador]

Our next viewing was something of an emotional roller-coaster, which I am glad ended on a positive note of hope.

It began with Gollum trying to set Frodo against Sam, which Elboron did not comment about; but he was very much worried when the Witch-king told Gothmog “I will break him (Gandalf)”. Yes, I know this sets up the scene for a later one, which some fans have a huge problem with (and I do not).

Elboron enjoyed Pippin’s tete-a-tete with Faramir about his new uniform, although I personally find the part about Faramir slaying dragons and not paying attention to his books hard to credit (within the books it is just so wrong), and hoped he will mention Faramir’s shooting own the Nazgul – but alas, he didn’t! Neither did he comment on Pippin’s swearing fealty.
I don’t know how he reacted to Denethor’s apparent rejection of Faramir’s last appeal for love. Elboron is very sensitive to his parents and their feelings about him; and I think that as an only son, sensitive to me more than to his mother – I really must think three times each time I feel he deserves a scolding, poor boy! [heart] But the feeling of loving while competing with a sibling is foreign to his experience. In short, he said no word about this.

And then came the last massive change from the book – the sending away of Sam.
Now I know this is one of the changes which are the most hard to swallow. I once attempted to explain it, although I am not sure the reasons I raised were sufficient; but check FarFromHome’s response to that post.
But by this time I was prepared, and my son hasn’t read the book yet, so can react to the movie with no purist misgivings. And when we got
here I had to stop the DVD for a couple of minutes.
Elboron was crying.
Of course, not like a little baby, or like a girl (please pardon the gender prejudice) – but the tears in his eyes were unmistakable. And here the great advantage of our mode of viewing was shown – as I simply hugged him until he subsided, which I couldn’t if he was reading the book (he would have forced himself to go on before admitting his feelings to me, and probably get nightmares into the bargain) or watched the movie in the theater.
So while this episode is all wrong, it was a huge success as far as his connection to the characters and their travails went. And while I did have a lingering misgiving about how he will react when he reads the book and finds out he cried for nothing – I know this is an absolutely worthless objection. Perhaps if I myself was not “spoiled” by previous knowledge of the book, I would have reacted the same myself.
I must add that Elboron couldn’t say whether he was crying for Frodo, or Sam, or just for the pure Evil of the Ring; and that he relaxed without needing any spoilers to comfort him.

Of course, as a book-firster, I myself was more concerned by the deviation from the original than moved by Sam’s emotion. For me, the next scene, the Gondorians’ farewell to Faramir was far more heartrending.
Elboron did not comment on Gandalf’s last words, Pippin’s song or Denethor’s table manners; but his was frightened at the Orcs in Osgiliath aiming at Faramir, afraid the two brothers might die the same death. [unsure] Ha! I never saw this screencap as echoing Lurtz, but it clearly is. Nice catch!
As I said above, I was more touched by Gandalf’s farewell to Faramir. Two absences are striking – Gandalf not being in the ‘council’ which decides Faramir will set out, and Denthor not being at the gate. Based on what I wrote in my response to weaver regarding Gandalf’s miscalculation, it seems that Gandalf didn’t count on Denethor’s sending Faramir on such a suicide mission, or on Faramir’s going so meekly. No wonder at the end of the scene the camera shifts to him, looking utterly devastated. []
However, Elboron himself was more concerned about the siege engines crossing the river at Osgiliath.

Then the scene shifted to Harrowdale – a beautiful set, but a bit silly for mustering thousands of riders, don’t you think? An out of the way, narrow valley, which takes the Riders far from their road (as opposed to the plain before Edoras), and under the shadow of a haunted mountain to boot. Of course I realize why (in terms of the movie plotline) that was the appointed place, but I wish a better solution could have been found.
Elboron was amused by Merry’s incompetence, and asked me to translate carefully Eomer’s views on war. He was frightened by Aragorn’s vision of the King of the Dead, and completely amazed by Elrond’s appearing.
This scene has been heavily criticized on two accounts – on Elrond’s words “Arwen is dying”, which I never had any problem with, and on Aragorn’s completing Gilraen’s couplet which Elrond began “I keep none for myself”. The second is more problematic IMHO; I posted my thoughts on both charges here.
I’m not sure I translated this exchange properly; but surely Elboron went to bed with hope, after the revealing of Anduril. Another uplifting note to end with. Perhaps the two hands clasping the sword have kept no hope for themselves – but they did have some for one young boy sitting in my study.