Expanding Middle-Earth ?

orcbane

orcbane

Gondor
I've had a growing desire to see more done with Middle-Earth since the PJ films. It was such a great experience I do not now want it to end. The coming Hobbit film(s) will be a great opportunity when it does happen, but I think of much more potential beyond that.

I just started looking at the Star Wars expanded universe as a model to study and because I had a dormant interest to it. I am quite amazed at what has been going on and how seriously it is managed. I really had no idea at how much material has been published (apparently in the 100's of books, TV series, gaming, etc, etc) and how all is coordinated to work together.

Aware that Lotr has basic differences, yet I am incredibly jealous of that SW world with a living author, who from day one, gave his fans accessiblity to the world. Not just fan art or fiction, but published works that are considered legit and part of the universe, although secondary to the authors work. Legitimate enough so that the secondary works are sometimes used in the authors works. Lucas doesn't read the stuff himself, but keeps a full time staff that has to approve everything and the primary rule is nothing can be added that contradicts what already is.

In other words scores of new authors and artists if they can achieve the skill to be published can literally add elements to Middle-Earth. And fans get new material to read (and comment on) and things to collect.

I wish Middle-earth was as free a place, and not under hands of Petty Dwarves that hoard it or only sell bits for exorbitant prices beyond reach. Part of the problem is no entity owns all.

What do you think of an Expanded Middle-Earth - has something of this sort already been done, or tried ?
 
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In short: yes. I am a huge fan of the Sta Wars Expanded Universe. I even think there are some sources that are better than the movies. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy (1991-1993) is often credited as THE element that spurred that Star Wars resurrection in the 90's, which as of today seems unstoppable.

Middle Earth, as you mention, is a radically different start point, the author is not alive, etc. But... there are a few nice licenses out there which could work for a Middle Earth expanded universe.

www.creativecommons.org Offers a type of license in which you allow derivative works without commercial permission. I believe that's what should be done with Middle Earth.

I undersatnd Christopher Tolkien... I would personally not allow commercial activities with Tolkien's characters, mainly if they are not STRICTLY within the time and storylines created by the author himself. We cannot forget Lucas showed us 20 years of the life of the galaxy... Tolkien wrote about 3 full ages. Lucas's work is almost by definition more suitable for derivative works.

However, fan fiction, whatever its form and scope of its dsitribution, should be encouraged for Middle Earth.

To commission a couple of works, under very strict and limiting rules, could be a way of expanding Middle Earth. Perhaps about the Easterlings or lesser people within the well established stories we know and love.

The problem is, is that canon? Where should they stand distinction-wise next to Tolkien's original and his posthumously edited ones? They are not Tolkien after all, and that's what makes de Estate shun this type of encouragement.
 
There's Roddenberry's Star Trek, complete with invented languages.

And Lovecraft encouraged fellow writers to add to his Cthulhu Mythos.

Tolkien described his desire for an British Myth. Myths are the communal property of a culture, free to be adopted by and adapted for successive generations. Indeed, his work seems to be approaching such universal significance. Yet ironically in the event he seemed quite reluctant to fully cede it to the public. So it's become the oxymoron of a static myth. One can only wonder at the beauties and, yes, abominations once the copyright runs out.
 
Very eloquently put, Darkstone.

It should indeed grow, though, I do not know if commercially. It would be a tricky thing to establish a division within the state that handles licenses.

I mean.. when I think of official additions to the myth it becomes a little hard to come up with something nice. Into the Fourth Age? During existing ages? More about characters we already know? New characters? Writing about what happens elsewhere from the main events?

Let's not forget the SW Expanded Universe was born a mess... it took them many years (several resurrections of Palpatine later, and not few Death Star imitations) to get it structured the way it is now. But there was always the will to do it.

Then again, the New Jedi Order model could be rather successfully translated into ME. Lucas Licensing sat down with 8, 9? writers and planned the story for 19 (or so) books. Authors were free to roam wherever they wanted within the pre-established storyline. It was VERY successful, albeit really controversial.

An example of what the actual issue could be shown in Asimov's Foundation series. The Asimov Estate commissioned 3 books to complete the series, which were written after Asimov has passed on. Search for Foundation in amazon or Wikipedia... 7 books are shown. Asimov's 7. I haven't finished reading the series, so I can't make a quality judgement on the three commissioned books.

The point is they were official, yet, they are not recognized as a "real" part of the original series.
 
That story was actually written to be the low budget second film if the first film didn't do well. But the real point is that there are problems as Compa Mighty discusses, and particularly in the early days, but they have faced them and tried to wrestle them into place as best they can. The real black hole in the universe is something else.

"The Expanded Universe has a continuity with few wrinkles. The general rule is that nothing in the Expanded Universe is allowed to contradict any other part of the Expanded Universe or the films. The films, however, do slightly contradict the Expanded Universe on occasion, and retcons are created in the Expanded Universe to fix these contradictions. In the absence of such ad hoc solutions, the EU is considered incorrect on the particular points of contradiction. The Expanded Universe is actually older than the films themselves, as the novelization of the original film was published nearly a year before the film was released..."


early development of the Expanded Universe was sporadic and unrefined, particularly because there was so little official material for the creators to build on. For example, the "Expanded Universe" is generally considered to have begun with Alan Dean Foster's February 1978 Star Wars spin-off novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye (although technically it began with Marvel Comics' "Star Wars #7" in January 1978). This novel drew inspiration primarily from an early draft of the Star Wars script. (It should be noted that although George Lucas's name is on the cover of the original Star Wars novelization, Alan Dean Foster ghost-wrote it. He was given a copy of the working script and a tour of the production. Most of the actual description was from the mind of Foster. It could be said that this was the unofficial start of the Expanded Universe.)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe

"the time it was written, the familial relationship between Luke, Leia, and Darth Vader had yet to be revealed. Therefore, some inconsistencies are evident and unavoidable. Most noticeably the sexual tension depicted between Luke and Leia in this book which in retrospect would be considered inappropriate in most countries. Although Lucas claimed to have had the Star Wars saga mapped out even at this early stage, the fact he allowed this plot element to remain in Foster's novel has been cited as evidence that he hadn't yet decided upon the family aspect at this point. However, Lucas has stated before, that this tension was purposely there, to show that the two had feelings for one another, but didn't know exactly what type of feelings.

From synopsis of story:

"Undaunted, Vader picks up his lightsaber with his remaining arm, and again pursues the exhausted Luke. Vader, also exhausted, is supposedly about to win, staggering as he approaches to make the killing blow, and he falls into a pit; Luke senses that this does not kill Vader. As the story ends, a healed Leia and Luke drive off with their droids and with Halla into the mists of Mimban, ready to take on further off-world adventure."
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind%27s_Eye
 
I echo your yearnings and frustrations, Orcbane.

Tolkien left behind such an astoundingly detailed foundation. It truly boggles the mind. A lifetime of tireless effort spent creating an unbelievably nuanced world packed with lavishly detailed cultures and traditions and histories. Middle Earth has the most richly developed and fully-realized underpinnings and backgrounds I've ever seen in any work of fiction.

And the truest tragedy was that Tolkien himself only had time to write a few stories to take place in its foreground.

It really is a terrible shame that, despite the vast potential of that world, it seems we'll never get any official new Middle Earth stories. Heart-breaking. (Yes, there's always unofficial fan fiction ... but that can be ... well ... spotty.) Oh, what I wouldn't give for some officially sanctioned books penned by professional writers with the blessings ... nay, full participation and involvement ... of the Estate. That would be something special. The potential is staggering.

I wouldn't want any more Frodo/Bilbo stories, of course ... that's well-trod ground and you really couldn't improve on what the Professor has already given us. But I absolutely would love to explore some of the more remote edges of the Middle Earth map ... the lands and peoples about which we've heard only whispers. (Personally, I've always wanted to know more about the adventures of Radagast and the other Istari.) To some degree, one can get a taste of this kind of "expanded universe" through the various Tolkien-themed video games. And the so-called "bridge" film will likely deal with a goodly portion of this kind of material.

But I agree ... it's just not enough to slake my thirst.

I understand the living-mythology-building idea that Tolkien was working toward. But I also understand the Estate's position of hard-line literary protectionism. Both philosophies are valid and both are equally fraught with potential peril. It really can be a catch-22.

Perhaps in time, a new generation of literary caretakers will assume control ... and perhaps they'll be able to stay true to Tolkien's universe while respectfully guiding the telling of new stories ... about a familiar land.
 
Middle-earth just doesn't work that way; it's one expansive storyverse made by one guy, and wasn't meant to be this infinite collaboratively written behemoth

most fan stuff I see, while interesting, is not remotely good enough to be included

it's like saying "hey, lets add some chapters to Beowulf"
 
Or should I say, "Bwak-buck-buck"? That is clever! [laugh]

Okay, just to counter that, here's something I gleaned from the Straight Dope message board an age ago. They were posting "if someone else had written LotR" parodies, when one person came up with this:

A Lost Short Story by J.R.R. Tolkien

The chicken, sunlight coruscating off its radiant yellow-white coat of feathers, approached the dark, sullen asphalt road and scrutinized it intently with its obsidian-black eyes. Every detail of the thoroughfare leapt into blinding focus: the rough texture of the surface, over which countless tires had worked their relentless tread through the ages; the innumerable fragments of stone embedded within the lugubrious mass, perhaps quarried from the great pits where the Sons of Man labored not far from here; the dull black asphalt itself, exuding those waves of heat which distort the sight and bring weakness to the body; the other attributes of the great highway too numerous to give name. And then it crossed it.
 
I am glad to get your opinion Compa_Mighty. My experience with EU is practically nil and I am very interested in how serious fans see it after 30 years. What is the the good, the bad and the ugly. (I think I know the ugly already though. I had to look... [laugh]) But after just a little bit..it was like my head was going to explode...

What could we have had in Middle-Earth these last 30 years ? Those Custards!

Fortunately, PJ and Bobby Shaye broke a good part loose, and there is new life in M-E, but even there, it is beyond the reach of all but a few, to contribute. And we must wait on them & the legal squabbles. The Estate I entirely distrust. All they say and do on the subject of interpretation and licence angers me. What they put out is fine, I appreciate and I am slowly aquiring. But it is what they prevent from happening that rankles.

The differences between the Star Wars and Middle-Earth franchises is pretty dramatic.
 
Not Tolkien's voice at all.

First of all, he would have named the chicken. Actually it would probably have at least one name in Chicklish (or whatever name he'd give to chicken language) and at least one more in English.

Second, he would have named the road. Again, probably with multiple names. And he would have thrown in some names about where it starts and ends, and what towns it goes through.

And he wouldn't have mentioned cars or stones or pits or laborers without naming at least some of them. And also giving names to the time period in which the road was built, and/or various events in its history, culminating with "The Great Crossing," translated into Chicklish.
 
don't forget, he'd also have to name the father and grandfather of the chicken in both English and Chicklish, and any ancestors coming into contact with this road long before, in a different age (during which there were different languages and different names for the road which Tolkien would also kindly give us multiple names for)...
 
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Made me think of Chiclets[tongue]

Ah, the EU! I've been collecting SW novels and comic--errr, graphic novels since I stood in line in 1977! Still have my origional comics too!

Actually, my personal recommendations are the stories for children written by Jude Watson, the ones dealing with the Padawan years of Obi-wan and Anakin. It''s two children's series, forget the titles. The ones with 13-yr-old Obi-wan and his Master Qui-Gon are some of the best stories written in the entire 30-odd yr history of the EU and I'm saying that as an avid decades-long collector. In fact, I routinely recommend them to people to introduce them to the EU. Out of all the Sw authors, Jude Watson ranks right up there with Timothy Zahn. Watson has a superb knowledge of the SW universe and its laws, and her tales are filled with emotion, compassion, excitement, and melodrama. They are some of the most well-crafted of all books. The stories of Obi-wan's teen years are wrenching and some help you understand the world today. I refuse to give anything away.

For those who are interested, here are my personal recommendations: (not in order of goodness-tough to make up my mind)

1)The kid's series mentioned above

2)The "Han Solo Trilogy"--can't remember the namke of the first two but the last is called "Rebel Dawn". The story of Han Solo. from childhood right up to the cantina. This author conjures up a *wonderful* Oliver Twist upbringing for Han and if you didn't love him enough before, you'll REALLY love him now. Special kudos for his Wookiee "stepmother" Dewlannamapia (Dewlanna for short.)

3) Can't remember the name of this but it is a story about Samuel L. Jackson's character from Films 1-3. A FASCINATING novel as it is different from all the others. IMO, the DARKEST SW novel by far, ever written. Jedi Master Mace Windu is sent on a mission to his home planet, a Vietnam (or Rwanda?) -like world locked in genocidal conflict. It turns out that there are rumors his Padawan, a brilliant young girl he looks on as a daughter, has taken sides in the conflict and committed some hideous acts, all in the name of protecting a dark secret from her past. She sends a cryptic message to her Master NOT to follow her, which is actually a cry for help. Mace of course follows her to the planet, gets sucked up into the conflict, and learns all about the Dark Side...esp in himself. Difficult and disturbing, it is also comforting as it is obviosuly inspired by the 21st century Earth. Warning: you think you may have read some dark SW tales, such as "I, Jedi" but this is a cut above. You'll need a strong stomach for this, as there is some pretty graphic stuff in this book. And nobody wins. (Think...well, Rwanda) And even some (hinted) profanity!

4) "Tales From The Mos Eisely Cantina" (1995 I think)
What it says. Absolutely delightful...the lives of the cantina denizens, a short story compendium by a dozen authors. In fact, this book is SUCH a fan favorite that there are accusations that in the SW Extended Editions, Lucas changed some of the Cantina creatures onscreen to look like characters described in this book. My favorite: "Nightlily." I REFUSE to give spoil this one!
 
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There is a letter Tolkien wrote that I have always interpreted to be an invitation for us to do just that, add to the Behemoth. I looked quick, but must search again to find it and will put it here. The wording is subject to different opinion though on literary works, which is why I want to quote it. Christopher Tolkien quoted a large portion of the letter in a preface to 'The Children of Hurin', but stopped short of the most important part (to me) and purposely in my opinion, because it runs contrary to his own desires.

But as far as quality goes, yes, JRRT will write no more. But given the chance, lesser authors (and film-makers) will try and from time to time succeed to create new elements of look and design and in dialog. An interesting theme will arise or a popular character and by its clever construction win popular support.

There are places already mentioned like the East, about which hardly anything is known. Morgoths subversion of the first men there is not recorded, nor thr fate of Blue Wizard # 1 & Blue Wizard # 2

We know less even about the Southrons. Except they are cruel.
 
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