Durin's Folk IV

[Tolkien Forever]

Today, we'll take a look at Thrain & his capture by The Necromancer, and his Ring of Power......

'Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it since he aided in the forging of all the Seven.'

1. Does this mean Sauron and not the Elven-smiths gave all of the other six Dwarf Rings to the other Dwarf Kings?


The Silmarillion, in 'Of The Rings of Power And the Third Age' it is stated that:

'It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoardes of the Dwarf-kings of old was a gold ring.'

2. Since the Dwarves received their Rings of Power over 2000 years after the First Age began, are we still to believe they had no Hoardes until that time? If so, why would that be?


'For the Dwarves proved untameable by any means. The only power that the Rings wielded over them was to inflame their hearts with a greed for gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengence on all who deprived them.'

'The lust for gold was ever on his (Thrain's) mind'

3. What might there be about both the gold Rings themselves and/or the Dwarves that led to their obsession with gold?


'He was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him. Orcs waylaid him. evil birds shadowed his path...'

4. Does this remind you of the Fellowship in Hollin? How do the two compare?


'Only long after was it learned that Thrain had been taken alive to the pits of Dol Guldur. There he was tormented and the Ring taken from him and later he died.'

Unfinished Tales, 'The Quest For Erebor':

"I (Gandalf) remembered a dangerous journey of mine 99 years before, when I had enterd Dol Guldur in disguise and had found an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits. He had a map that had belonged to Durin's Folk in Moria (huh?) and a key that seemed to go with it, though he was too far gone to explain it. And he seemed to have posessed a great Ring."
"Nearly all his ravings were that, 'The last of the seven' he said over & over again."

5. Why wasn't Thrain searched more thoroughly by the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?
Does this seem inconsistent with later policy in Cirith Ungol when every single item on Frodo is to be detailed?


Back to 'The Quest For Erebor'.....

'I knew Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself and that he was preparing a great war. How would he begin? ... I thought then, and am sure now, that to attack Lorien and Rivendell as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan...'

6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been? What route could Sauron's forces take?
With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?


'The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.'

7. What incentive could Sauron use to recruit Smaug?


'It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him, and said "Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I am bidden to seek you. Indeed, I should have done so if I had known where to find you."

Gandalf looked at him in wonder. "That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield." he said. For I have thought of you also.; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that it is the way also to your halls."

Later, Gandalf says: "We might now hope to return from the victory here (in the War of the Ring) only to return to ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.

8. 'A chance meeting'; "I was bidden"......
Gandalf telld Frodo that he and Bilbo were 'meant' to have the Ring. Is the power that 'meant' that to happen at work here, orchestrating Gandalf & Thorin's 'chance meeting'?

 

[sador]

1. Does this mean Sauron and not the Elven-smiths gave all of the other six Dwarf Rings to the other Dwarf Kings?
Yes, that's what it means.
If I remember correctly, in UT it is said that Celebrimbor revealed under toture where the Seven and the Nine when concealed, and Durin's Ring only was given before that.

2. Since the Dwarves received their Rings of Power over 2000 years after the First Age began, are we still to believe they had no Hoardes until that time? If so, why would that be?
They weren't fabuolous hoards like these seven. I don't see this as a difficulty.

3. What might there be about both the gold Rings themselves and/or the Dwarves that led to their obsession with gold?
Being made by Aule, the dwarves had a special penchant for the riches of the earth.
I do not think the gold of which the Rings were made had something to do with their passion - only that these Rings gave their bearers the power to execute their inner wishes. Dwarves loved gold, and the Ring enabled them to acquire more of it. Of course, they had to pay a price - but the price they paid was less than Sauron hoiped they would.

4. Does this remind you of the Fellowship in Hollin? How do the two compare?
And on the Great River. But it is possible that these were just ordinary watchers of Sauron, who were under orders to bring everyone to Dol Guldur.

5. Why wasn't Thrain searched more thoroughly by the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?
Does this seem inconsistent with later policy in Cirith Ungol when every single item on Frodo is to be detailed?
Well' it does seem quite a curious thing to overlook. Could it be that once Sauron took the Ring, he didn't care about anything else? Or that he tried to subdue Thrain, promising him the Ring back if he would serve him - and therefore Sauron didn't want to break his dignity by further search?

6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been? What route could Sauron's forces take?
With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?
I wonder about that as well. The forces of Elrond and Cirdan had repulsed Angmar for years, and an attacking army from far away was likely to be weaker than that - unless, of course, Sauron himself came. Which I doubt he would do.

'What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes, at present, until all else is conquered... And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas, They do not fear the Ringwraithes... against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power'

Unless Gandalf was just trying to reassure Frodo with a half-truth, this seems to mean Sauron's attack wouldn't be quite successful.

7. What incentive could Sauron use to recruit Smaug?
Elven-maids taste far better than the mere humans he had at Dale. Ask Glaurung.

8. 'A chance meeting'; "I was bidden"......
Gandalf telld Frodo that he and Bilbo were 'meant' to have the Ring. Is the power that 'meant' that to happen at work here, orchestrating Gandalf & Thorin's 'chance meeting'?
Of course.

 

[Compa_Mighty]

6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been? What route could Sauron's forces take?
With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?

Well, Elrond seemed really worried about the possibility of the Elves being run down by the forces of Sauron. I'm not sure even the three Elven Rings could have stopped the forces Sauron had plus a dragon (plus a Balrog had things gone really wrong) After all we know Glaurung and Ancalagon did quite a bit of damage in the past, and we have to be honest, there no Elves in the Third Age as powerful as the likes of Fëanor's Sons or Fingolfin, not to mention Gil-Galad.

7. What incentive could Sauron use to recruit Smaug?
Destruction, bounty? I don't think there would take much to convince a Dragon to create some havoc. Smaug's Wastelands are more than proof enough to see what the Dragon was capable of, and that was only because of a bit of gold. Think power, pillage and the promise of no one ever bothering him again.

 

[Tolkien Forever]

3. What might there be about both the gold Rings themselves and/or the Dwarves that led to their obsession with gold?
Being made by Aule, the dwarves had a special penchant for the riches of the earth.
I do not think the gold of which the Rings were made had something to do with their passion - only that these Rings gave their bearers the power to execute their inner wishes. Dwarves loved gold, and the Ring enabled them to acquire more of it. Of course, they had to pay a price - but the price they paid was less than Sauron hoiped they would.

Well, I came upon this a few weeks ago in HoME Volume 10 Morgoth's Ring, 'Myths Transformed VII'

(page 400)

'Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was diseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute 9For he did not create Gold); it was nowhere absent. (It was this mOrgoth-element that was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.)

It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unlessin the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-eareth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth.'

Then, we have in the Silmarillion:

'In the darkness of Arda the Dwarves wrought great works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than silveror gold.'

Is it possible (see, rhetorical question as opposed to UUT, lol) that Annatar makes sure the Elven-smiths use Gold, knowing of it's corruption?

Does the use of Morgoth-tainted Gold in the Rings of Power inflame the Dwarve's hearts to Gold as opposed to other metals?

 

[Dreamdeer]

1. Does this mean Sauron and not the Elven-smiths gave all of the other six Dwarf Rings to the other Dwarf Kings?

Not necessarily. We only know for sure that this particular ring did not come from Sauron. Correction: we don't even know that for sure, only that it was said.

2. Since the Dwarves received their Rings of Power over 2000 years after the First Age began, are we still to believe they had no Hoardes until that time? If so, why would that be?


All things are relative. Perhaps what dwarves had before did not match the splendor of a later definition of "hoard". And, again, what "they say" might not be accurate. The seven dwarf-lords who received rings must surely have already been persons of influence in order to gain the notice of whoever passed out the rings to begin with. I would tend to believe that the rings greatly expanded existent hoards into HOARDS!

3. What might there be about both the gold Rings themselves and/or the Dwarves that led to their obsession with gold?

They were, themselves, creations of the Vala of the substance of the earth; therefore they had a special affinity for minerals, especially since Aule's dispute with Yavanna alienated them from the world of living nature. The ring could distort this appreciation into obsession, particularly for those minerals most often assigned artificial significance.
4. Does this remind you of the Fellowship in Hollin? How do the two compare?
Now that you mention it.


5. Why wasn't Thrain searched more thoroughly by the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?
Does this seem inconsistent with later policy in Cirith Ungol when every single item on Frodo is to be detailed?
Perhaps Sauron learned the hard way and made the rules for searching prisoners stricter after this. (And what disguise did Gandalf wear, I wonder, that would gain him admittance into Dol Guldur?)

6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been? What route could Sauron's forces take?
With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?

Quite feasible in appearance, if one does not know that Celebrimbor passed his ring on to Elrond. Rivendell appears to depend more on secrecy than strength, and stands pretty darn close to the Misty Mountains full of goblins. It is, furthermore, built into the sides of a ravine so steep that one cannot readily see Rivendell when standing on the plain above. (I base "built into the sides" not just on the Alan Lee depictions, but on Frodo gazing from a balcony out to pine forest on the opposite slope.) That means an underground folk could tunnel into it quite easily from behind, once they knew where to find it.

7. What incentive could Sauron use to recruit Smaug?

"Recruit" might be too strong a word for it. I expect that "Stir up" would be more like it. A few sly suggestions here and there could incline a dragon to rampage, on his own account, to one's mutual benefit.
8. 'A chance meeting'; "I was bidden"......
Gandalf telld Frodo that he and Bilbo were 'meant' to have the Ring. Is the power that 'meant' that to happen at work here, orchestrating Gandalf & Thorin's 'chance meeting'?

That's what it looks like to me. Which makes me wonder what sort of man Tolkien was. Some people notice this sort of "chance" all the time. Others go through life completely oblivious to synchronicity, and find such references annoyingly unbelievable. Tolkien writes about such experiences in a believable, familiar fashion, in just the way that these things really happen, not in the style of someone weaving fabrications about what they themselves have not observed and do not actually credit. It seems to me that something protected Tolkien from the dominant culture's brainwashing that trains people to disbelieve their own perceptions to the point where they forget they ever had the perceptions in the first place. Yet he came from that very society that did more to spread this brainwashing around the world than any other. What set him apart?

 

[Dreamdeer]

I started to reply, then lay down for a long while till I felt better, then finished the reply, and by then many of my statements were either answered, repeated, or refuted before I made them. Sorry about that!

 

[squire]

They generally focus on perception, in any culture.

I always think that Western scientism's "brainwashing" only displaced other world cultures' anti-scientistic "brainwashing". A messy exchange, with benefits and penalties for both sides.

 

[Tolkien Forever]

5. Why wasn't Thrain searched more thoroughly by the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?
Does this seem inconsistent with later policy in Cirith Ungol when every single item on Frodo is to be detailed?
Perhaps Sauron learned the hard way and made the rules for searching prisoners stricter after this.

That's what I would tend to guess also.....
The events of Smaug's death went far & wide in Wilderland, certainly to the ears of Sauron. Who knows if the tale of Bilbo visiting Smaug was included in these tales since the secret door was destroyed & had no future value (with no mention of Bilbo being invisible of course)......

(And what disguise did Gandalf wear, I wonder, that would gain him admittance into Dol Guldur?)

Perhaps Gandalf first stopped by & visited Radagast, a 'master of shapes & changing of hues' at his home in nearby Rhosgobel?


6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been? What route could Sauron's forces take?
With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?

Quite feasible in appearance, if one does not know that Celebrimbor passed his ring on to Elrond.

Quite reasonable to assume considering the Sauron sends forces to attack Lorien later, although Treebeard says they could not get in there "thanks to the great ones who are here." - He bowed to the Lord & the Lady (Galadriel & Celeborn).

Rivendell appears to depend more on secrecy than strength, and stands pretty darn close to the Misty Mountains full of goblins. It is, furthermore, built into the sides of a ravine so steep that one cannot readily see Rivendell when standing on the plain above. (I base "built into the sides" not just on the Alan Lee depictions, but on Frodo gazing from a balcony out to pine forest on the opposite slope.) That means an underground folk could tunnel into it quite easily from behind, once they knew where to find it.

Well, I doubt much would come of any attack on Rivendell considering what happens when the Black Riders try to cross the Ford of Bruinen and are swept away in the Flood that Elrond commands.

 

[Darkstone]

1. Does this mean Sauron and not the Elven-smiths gave all of the other six Dwarf Rings to the other Dwarf Kings?

Both Sauron and the Elven-smiths. Like in a Friar's Club testimonial dinner. I’d suppose Sauron might act as Master of Ceremonies while the Elven-smiths handed out the rings.


2. Since the Dwarves received their Rings of Power over 2000 years after the First Age began, are we still to believe they had no Hoardes until that time?

It is also said that there are no Dwarven women and Dwarves just spring out of the ground. “It is said” does not mean “It is true”.


If so, why would that be?

Racist anti-Dwarven Elven conspiracy theorists. They just can’t believe that Dwarves got their hoards the old fashioned honest way: by earning them.


3. What might there be about both the gold Rings themselves and/or the Dwarves that led to their obsession with gold?

Obviously Dwarves are capable of seeing the value of things other than gold:

“`There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,' said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. `Nothing, unless it might be – unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine.’”

But it would seem that the rings made the Dwarves single-minded, and oblivious to the value of other things. Note the second-hand taint blinded Thorin until just before his death.

“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

Even today obsession and fanaticism remain the ways Evil penetrates the hearts of Men.

But The Dwarf, of course, is above such temptations:

“But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Glóin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.”


'He was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him. Orcs waylaid him. evil birds shadowed his path...'

4. Does this remind you of the Fellowship in Hollin? How do the two compare?

Actually it kind of reminds me of the Company in Mirkwood. One wonders if the Necromancer had any rogue Elvish help. (But of course the possibility is never mentioned, because it’s all Elvish revisionism anyway.)


5. Why wasn't Thrain searched more thoroughly by the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?

Somehow I’m reminded of the dungeon scene in Mom And Dad Save The World (1992). (Highly recommended.)

King Raff (hanging by chains on his wrists) to Dick Nelson: “This is very important... open my pants.”

(Eric idle would make a great Thráin II.)


Does this seem inconsistent with later policy in Cirith Ungol when every single item on Frodo is to be detailed?

Obviously a name brand like “Sauron” can attract better quality help than the more generic "Necromancer”.


6. How feasable would attacking Rivendell really have been?

Doesn’t matter. Rivendell and Elrond were what cost Sauron the Elven Rings. This is about revenge, not feasibility.


What route could Sauron's forces take?

Down the Old Forest Road that’s been secured by giant spiders, cross the pebbly ford of the Anduin courtesy of the Orcs and Wargs, then over the High Pass that’s been secured by the King of the Goblins, and finally meeting up with a trio of troll spies in Hollin. (Of course Bilbo puts a monkey wrench in all four of those groups. Coincidence? I think not!!)


With Elrond holding Vilya, the mightiest of the Thre Elven Rings, is it any likelier that an attack on Rivendell would meet with any more sucess than the later attacks on Lorien were?

The opening attack of a war is usually successful. The Necromancer’s chief weapon would be surprise. Surprise and fear. Surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency. Surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to Melkor. And the nifty orc uniforms.

'The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.'

7. What incentive could Sauron use to recruit Smaug?

Do like Bilbo did: Sneak in, taunt him, steal something, and then go hide. Presto! All the towns in the area burned to the ground!


8. 'A chance meeting'; "I was bidden"......
Gandalf telld Frodo that he and Bilbo were 'meant' to have the Ring. Is the power that 'meant' that to happen at work here, orchestrating Gandalf & Thorin's 'chance meeting'?

Was Eliza Doolittle meant to go to the Embassy Ball?


THE GENTLEMAN. I am myself a student of Indian dialects; and--

THE NOTE TAKER [eagerly] Are you? Do you know Colonel Pickering,
the author of Spoken Sanscrit?

THE GENTLEMAN. I am Colonel Pickering. Who are you?

THE NOTE TAKER. Henry Higgins, author of Higgins's Universal
Alphabet.

PICKERING [with enthusiasm] I came from India to meet you.

HIGGINS. I was going to India to meet you!

(A chance meeting indeed!)

 

[Tolkien Forever]

Was Eliza Doolittle meant to go to the Embassy Ball?

Did you happen to be watching Turner Classic Movies last night- 'My Fair Lady' was on.......


Obviously a name brand like “Sauron” can attract better quality help than the more generic "Necromancer”.

Really. No Uruks in Dol Guldur, just a bunch of Snagas.

And the Mouth of Sauron wasn't even a Lip yet.