does any one wish tolkien invented at least one good orc?

boldog

boldog

Rohan
Some might find this stupid, but I always wondered what if there was a good one? Perhaps he defies his masters, and sees that he is evil,thus trying to be much more on the good side. What if an orc saw an elf maid, in trouble and tried to save her? Love between and elf and orc? Either way, what do you all think. I know Tolkien invented orcs to be true evil, but to have at least one as an exception, I believe could be a potential remarkable story...
 
It would have to take something drastic to get one to change their mind, let slope to escape the wrath of men, elves, dwarves, and orcs.

Maciliel might though, she pities them already. Perhaps a fanfic is in the near future?
 
I don't want that to happen purely because I hate "one and only exception" plot devices. It's too fanfiction.

Also, it's in the nature of Middle Earth universe to have 100% unsympathetic villains. Not every story requires humanized ones, including one exception.

Besides, Orcs in Moria evolved into banker goblins from Harry Potter. So they turned well and wealthy in the end. [laugh]
 
I am not a fan of the anti-hero, the flawed hero or the misunderstood bad guy. I like my fantasy straightforward and uncomplicated. Good guys good and bad guys bad. But that's just me.
 
Much is made about Tolkien's Christian influences in Middle-Earth. In that light, it is surprising he didn't create an orc that "saw the light" and tried to convert back to goodness. One of the major themes in Christianity is that redemption is available to all, yet Middle-Earth isn't bound by Christian dogma or doctrine. (After all, it is not Earth or at least set in a pre-Christ time...)

Tolkien's orc mythology created orcs from elves that either rejected the Maia and turned to Melkor or were captured by Melkor and over generations were corrupted and changed. In effect, there was nothing good in them for them to turn to. By the Third Age, they were thoroughly evil. They had nothing to aspire to. As unnatural creature (creatures not inherently natural to Eä) their very existence is unnatural, hence, they are incapable of benefiting nature and always destructive to whatever they encounter.

It could be argued that only Elves were born with good as only they could journey West. Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits seems to have had the capacity to become either good or bad.

I don't think Tolkien ever intended us to relate to orcs or trolls. He wrote them so that we could recognize characteristics in them that we often see in non-compassionate people, but all orcish behavior was portrayed to be actions we should eschew.

Tolkien saved redemptive themes for more admirable characters like Boromir and Aragorn. While Ghan-Buri-Ghan wasn't an orc nor were the Dead under the White Mountains, Tolkien used them for redemptive themes.
 
'They would,' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? -- if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'

'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
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Perhaps it isn't for me to say, but they never seemed that "bad" if they wanted to abandon Sauron's regime.....
 
But I've always found orcs to be sympathetic caricatures, or at lest pitiable. And I think Tolkien intended for them to be so.
 
Whilst I wouldn't trust them and whilst one can understand Eomer's actions, one can also almost sympathize with them as they try to escape from Rohan.
 
Well, Tolkien made elves do bad things: Feanor and a few of his sons. And Eol and Maeglin are arguably mostly bad. Why not good orcs? Or at least orcs doing good things. It would have been ironic if Grishnakh was killed while trying to free Merry and Pippin. Or if Shagrat decided that Sauron was doing wrong and was going to get all of his orc family killed, so he helps Frodo escape from Cirith Ungol.
 
'They would,' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? -- if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'

'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
Click to expand...

Perhaps it isn't for me to say, but they never seemed that "bad" if they wanted to abandon Sauron's regime.....
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I don't know how "good" the pair could have been considering they were still contemplating a life of banditry and (presumably) murder.
 
What if someone (more likely one of the race of Men, rather than an Elf or Dwarf) took pity on an orphaned Orc-cub and attempted to raise it to be good? Could it be done? Or, would the attempt be doomed to failure?

Saruman's Half-orcs might be more easily redeemable. They are closer to human (often able to pass as Men) and may retain more free will than a normal Orc.
 
Mind you, that wouldn't be easy because you can always count on other people not being kind to adopted cub. Parents would show love but it takes more than just parents to shape a personality.
 
Alternate scenarios come to mind, however, where such a youngling could be raised in isolation. The real test might come when the Orc has to go it alone as an adult.
 
I think that Tolkien established that they were born evil as a species. They were created to be evil and then reproduced as such, like genetic instead of socially-induced evil. Though it's hard to accept the genetic evil concept nowdays when we know how that really works, it makes sense in a fantasy world that doesn't follow real world rules. No wonder we never see or hear about Orc children and women thought they technically exists somewhere, since they breed "in the manner of Illuvatar's children". Still, speculation about raising Orc kids (why cubs...they are humanoids) is an interesting one.
 
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I think that Tolkien established that they were born evil as a species. They were created to be evil and then reproduced as such, like genetic instead of socially-induced evil. Though it's hard to accept the genetic evil concept nowdays when we know how that really works, it makes sense in a fantasy world that doesn't follow real world rules. No wonder we never see or hear about Orc children and women thought they technically exists somewhere, since they breed "in the manner of Illuvatar's children". Still, speculation about raising Orc kids (why cubs...they are humanoids) is an interesting one.
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Even so, we like to think that people can change for the better. And Orcs were once Elves (and perhaps Men as well) before they were twisted by Morgoth and later Sauron. Perhaps an Orc raised in a loving, nurturing environment (with a great deal of patience) could be turned to Good.
 
I think that Tolkien established that they were born evil as a species. They were created to be evil and then reproduced as such, like genetic instead of socially-induced evil. Though it's hard to accept the genetic evil concept nowdays when we know how that really works, it makes sense in a fantasy world that doesn't follow real world rules. No wonder we never see or hear about Orc children and women thought they technically exists somewhere, since they breed "in the manner of Illuvatar's children". Still, speculation about raising Orc kids (why cubs...they are humanoids) is an interesting one.
Click to expand...


Even so, we like to think that people can change for the better. And Orcs were once Elves (and perhaps Men as well) before they were twisted by Morgoth and later Sauron. Perhaps an Orc raised in a loving, nurturing environment (with a great deal of patience) could be turned to Good.
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Using the Christian representations, the demons (orcs) have already fallen and cannot turn back. But, I don't want to speak for Tolkien, either. It is an interesting thought.

Humans: Domesticating the world, one species at a time!
 
Tolkien certainly didn't paint Eru in a very positive light. When you read all his work, the guy comes off more as an arch villain, albeit disguised as a benefactor, rather than a true force of good. So the fallen could probably be unfallen especially when it wasn't their fault - Orcs came from captured and tortured Elves (and Men). So not their choice or fault.
 
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