Discussion: The Last Debate - Moods

Ataahua

Ataahua

Super Moderator
Legolas speaks of how the gulls trouble his heart: "...their wailing voices spoke to me of the Sea. The Sea! Alas! I have not yet beheld it. But deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing, whch it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm."

1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?

2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?

3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?


Merry: "Though I feel somehow that the worst of this war is still to come. How I wish it was all over, and well over!"
"Don't be so gloomy!" cried Pippin. "The Sun is shining, and here we are together for a day or two at least."

4. Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?


When asked by Pippin to talk more of the Paths of the Dead, Gimli declines: "Upon that road I was put to shame: Gimli Gloin's son, who had deemed himself more tough that Men, and hardier under earth than any Elf. But neither did I prove."

5. The Paths of the Dead are days ago, and Gimli has fought two battles and survived, and is now sitting under sunshine with his dearest friends. Why do the Paths have such a hold over him?

6. What 'dark shadows' (if any) do the other characters in Minas Tirith carry with them?

7. How do the characters' varying moods set the reader up for the rest of the story? What is Tolkien's aim here?
 
1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?

I would think it's actually the pull of Aman, which may only be reached across the sea. In The Road Goes Ever On, Tolkien says (in exegesis of Galadriel's song, “Namárië”): "But it was impossible for one of the High-Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss" (emphasis added).

2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?

Because it's the Great Western Sea, the Belegaer.

3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?

I always think of Tolkien's comment that the direct traces of the Music of the Ainur were always most to be found in water. I have always felt a powerful attraction to the sea myself, and to water and swimming more generally. I'm not a religious person by nature, but there's a sort of baptismal quality to the element. It embodies a kind of spiritual rebirth.

4. Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?

Well, consider the experience Merry has just been through ... Pippin has so far remained largely unscathed, personally.
 
1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?

It’s the Way. Like the Stairway to Heaven, or the Road to Enlightment. It's the Journey, not the Destination that matters.


2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?

It's the same reason we Americans capitalize "Old West". It's very important to our mythology.


3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you?

It’s big and wet.


Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?

Well, it’s like all the English Tolkien fans were saying back in 1960 that we Americans could never “get” Tolkien. They’re right. The sea is a major part of British mindset and mythology. It represents the road to the British Empire, and the security of the British Isles. It is both freedom and cocoon.

It’s like how the rest of the world can never understand the importance of The Old West to the American mythology. It represents both free will and destiny.


4. Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?

I’m sure there are times when the moods are reversed. That’s how it is with friends. It also mirrors how the relationship between Frodo and Sam is changing, contrasting.


5. The Paths of the Dead are days ago, and Gimli has fought two battles and survived, and is now sitting under sunshine with his dearest friends. Why do the Paths have such a hold over him?

Wounded Dwarven pride is something that will fester for a long while.


6. What 'dark shadows' (if any) do the other characters in Minas Tirith carry with them?

Aragorn’s legitimacy as a ruler of Minas Tirith, Gandalf’s climax as steward of Middle-earth, and over all the shadow of the unknown fate of Frodo and Sam.


7. How do the characters' varying moods set the reader up for the rest of the story? What is Tolkien's aim here?

So we can get ready for the many partings in Many Partings.
 
1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?

It's their destiny - their true home, while Middle-earth is just a temporary exile.

2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?

There is only one Sea surrounding Middle-earth, so Sea is its 'name', not just a generic word - in the same way that the Shire contains the Hill, the Water, the Road. This is all a part of Tolkien's way of evoking the essence of things - when a storyteller uses these simple words that refer to things everyone is familiar with, "every hearer of the words will have his own picture, and it will be made out of all the hills and rivers and dales he has ever seen, but especially out of The Hill, The River, The Valley which were for him the first embodiment of the word."

3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?

Yes indeed. When I lived in Ontario, one of the things I never ceased to miss was the sea. When we came back to the British Isles, we chose a home right by the sea. I still can't get enough of it after all the years I was away - I walk there every day if I can. And I rarely hear the sound of the waves on the shore without thinking of "the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth"!

4. Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?

Merry has already been in action. He knows what war really is. Pippin has still to experience it.

5. The Paths of the Dead are days ago, and Gimli has fought two battles and survived, and is now sitting under sunshine with his dearest friends. Why do the Paths have such a hold over him?

It seems he's not recovered from the trauma. He can handle a fair fight in the open air, but the nightmare of total darkness and unseen fear was too much for him. Gimli started off with a very high opinion of his own abilities, and in terms of ordinary courage he was right. But he's learned that he's not as invulnerable as he thought - first Galadriel and now the Paths of the Dead were able to get past his defences.

6. What 'dark shadows' (if any) do the other characters in Minas Tirith carry with them?

Faramir and Eowyn have both been drawn out from under the shadow by Aragorn. So was Gimli, for that matter: "I was held to the road only by the will of Aragorn." Merry too - although Aragorn is confident his experience will not "darken his heart", still neither he nor any of the others will ever be quite the same.

7. How do the characters' varying moods set the reader up for the rest of the story? What is Tolkien's aim here?

Everything still lies in the balance - emotions fluctuate from moment to moment. Not unlike the stock exchanges right now, in fact!

 
3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?
Click to expand...


I've lived all my life within three hours of the ocean, and the last thirty years within ten miles or so. That means I've spent three decades in the flat sandy areas close to the sea, where gulls fly in parking lots and any dumpster is fair game. And a drive on a windy summer day can smell like the ocean, even ten miles inland.

So I have always loved to go out on the beach and watch. What sends us to the shore, to stand and gaze far out to the horizon? What part of us is called to the sea? I don't know if I can articulate it, but anyone who has ever stood in awe on a beach knows what I'm talking about.

The ocean is so big, for one thing. I can't see the other side. I can clearly see where I might push off on a journey, on the sand here, on this side. But I can't see where I am going, not from this perspective here, on the shore.

It's no wonder the sea is an ancient symbol of separation, and crossing the sea a metaphor for the last journey of death.

That and the mystery of the sea: the salt water of our birth, the unknown depths from which life emerged, mirrored in a small way in our own human wombs. To go back over the water is rather a kind of reversal of birth, in its way...or so it strikes me when I'm feeling lyrical.

When I was a young Navy wife, and my husband would go on deployment, I would watch and watch and watch the ship go out until it was a speck, and then it was gone. And I would think of the thousands of years of wives and mothers behind me, watching men disappear over the horizon on a tiny boat, when the world was a bigger place and sailors might really sail right off the edges...or maybe find that proverbial Blessed Island, never to return.

Yes, I see how the Ocean came to symbolize death and final goodbyes, and for Christians the final journey of the soul to that "beautiful land by the bright crystal sea".

Sunset and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,

But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound and foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.

Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell,
When I embark;

For tho' from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my Pilot face to face
When I have crossed the bar.


~~~Tennyson
 
Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?
Something instinctive-like a nursing babe to the mother? Comfort, nurishment.

Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?
Proper noun.

Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?
Merry witnessed Theoden's passing and Eowyn's being wounded then was wounded himself in body and spirit; Pippin witnessed Denthor's passing but also Gandalf's rescuing of Faramir.

The Paths of the Dead are days ago, and Gimli has fought two battles and survived, and is now sitting under sunshine with his dearest friends. Why do the Paths have such a hold over him?
His experience seemed very humbling-he's probably still processing what that means-kind of like Merry.

6. What 'dark shadows' (if any) do the other characters in Minas Tirith carry with them?
Faramir-the death of his father; Eowyn-the death of her uncle; Beregond-taking the lives of his fellow soldiers; the soldiers who didn't step up to protect Faramir...

7. How do the characters' varying moods set the reader up for the rest of the story? What is Tolkien's aim here?
um...what Darkstone said...






 
1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?
If I had the Silmaril with me now, I could look up for a proper quote; but as far as I remember, they have a special connection with Ulmo.

2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?
The see is an entity, whether you identify Osse with it or not.

3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?
Not really, but then I don't live in a country made of a couple of Islands.

4. Why the contrasting moods of Merry and Pippin?
In 'The Ride of the Rohirrim', Merry is described as missing the unquenchable cheerfulness of Pippin. They were always like that.

5. The Paths of the Dead are days ago, and Gimli has fought two battles and survived, and is now sitting under sunshine with his dearest friends. Why do the Paths have such a hold over him?
Why did the Barrow-down have such a hold on Frodo (remember, he told nobody of it until he spoke in his sleep in Rivendell)?

6. What 'dark shadows' (if any) do the other characters in Minas Tirith carry with them?
'dark shadows' like this one? The survivng Rangers, from the Paths of the Dead; Merry and Eowyn, from their encounter with the Witch-king; those who came back from Rath Dinen, also survived a traumatic and ghastly experience. However, Gandalf seems not to carry this shadow, and Pippin also seems immune. But Gandalf does carry the shadow of his struggle with the Balrog; and Faramir is described before as one who had struggled with great fear, and mastered it - which is another shadow which I suspect lies upon him.

7. How do the characters' varying moods set the reader up for the rest of the story? What is Tolkien's aim here?
It's a counterpoint to 'Flotsam and Jetsam'.
But unlike Pippin and Merry, who seem their regular selves - Legolas and Gimli seem to show the passing of the Elves, and the failing of the Dwarves.
 
1. Why does the sea have such an absolute hold on Elves?

Because they came crossing the sea. Beyond the sea is where they came from. On a more philosophical side - this is the trip from the womb and back to it as they are immortal.


2. Why does Tolkien capitalise 'Sea'?

Because it is The Sea.


3. Does the sea (or Sea) mean anything significant to you? Does this influence your response to Tolkien's mythology at all?

It means all to me. I'm sea-addicted. I was born in the land six hours away from the sea but I've always been greatly attached to it. When I moved later to different countries, I always went to their seas. There is where I recharge my batteries, find my balance, share my anger or love. I feel re-born when I see it. I love it no matter if it's calm and nurturing or mighty and dreadful. But then, my sign is a water one [cool]
 
Come over the Sea, I mean.

Legolas' family was Sindarin, and ruled over a Silvan folk; not high-elves!
In fact, he says as much in 'The Ring Goes South' - about his being strange from the Noldorin people of ancient Eregion.

A part of Feanor's speech to convince the Noldor to follow him back into Middle-Earth was harping on that very feeling - of yearning for home in Cuivinien.

Pesonally, I suspect Elves yearning for the Sea is more a part of being world-weary - a sort of death-wish.
 
But I think the yearning for the sea is kind of ... deeply hidden in all Elves. At least, that's my feeling. Like the yarning for happiness or "home", even to people who don'\t really know where this "home" of theirs is, they keep looking for it.
 
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