**CoH Discussion** VI. Turin Among the Outlaws: 1. Neithan, the Wronged

[Modtheow]

Ah! summertime! The Reading Room is pretty empty, but at least it’s easier to find a comfy chair now that so many regulars are on holiday, and if you angle the fan just right, and get the waiter to bring you a tall, cool drink, you’ll be ready to think deep thoughts at your leisure.

Since there’s no point in overtaxing ourselves, I thought I would post once a day until Friday. By the weekend, I imagine many of you will be deeply into Harry Potter 7.

I’d like to look first at pages 98-102 in chapter 6, "Túrin Among the Outlaws." In this section, believing that he is an outlaw because of the death of Saeros, Túrin leaves Doriath. A band of outlaws comes upon Túrin; he kills one of them, and then he is accepted as one of their band. He gives his name as Neithan, the Wronged, and spends the winter with this group of outlaws.

Now the tale turns...
The chapter begins with the sentence "Now the tale turns again to Túrin." Does this sort of narrative signpost bug you? Or do you like to be told where the story is going? I will just quietly mention that such sentences do occur in the sagas, and move on.

The Folk of Haleth
Turin comes to a devastated land, where "Haleth’s folk for the most part" used to dwell but "owned no lord." This seems unusual. Why wouldn’t they have a lord? Would this fact have something to do with the way in which their region is destroyed and "lay under the fear of Orcs, and of outlaws" ? Would this explain Morwen’s disdain of the "little Folk of Haleth" (chapter 1)? In other words, what picture of the folk of Haleth are you developing as you read the book?

Orcs and outlaws
"[A]ll that region lay under the fear of Orcs, and of outlaws." Orcs and outlaws are not all that different, it seems. Even Túrin says "I thought that only Orcs waylaid men; but I see that I am mistaken." In LOTR, we get a picture of the aftermath of war in the hobbits’ return to the Shire; is the picture of war’s aftermath in CoH different? If Túrin can see that the outlaws are behaving in an Orcish manner, why does he join them? Does he not have a sense of right and wrong? – he does call himself "the Wronged," after all.

Androg and Forweg
We are first introduced to Andróg, "who had been hunted from Dor-lómin for the slaying of a woman," and "old Algund," as well as Forweg, "as he named himself, a man with fair hair and unsteady glittering eyes, big and bold, but far fallen from the ways of the Edain of the people of Hador." How do Andróg and Forweg live up to these character descriptions when Túrin challenges them to accept him into their band?

The luckless man
When Túrin is surrounded by archers, a strange sequence of events occurs. He "suddenly" stoops to pick up a stone at the same moment that an archer shoots at this face: "but it passed over him, and he sprang up again like a bowstring released and cast a stone at the bowman with great force and true aim; and he fell to the ground with broken skull." Túrin calls the dead archer a "luckless man." Is Túrin also a "luckless man"? Did the "luckless man" create his own ill fortune or was he a victim of fate? What role does pride play in these events? Is this episode evidence that Túrin is a "dangerous man," as Andróg calls him, and if so, how is he dangerous?

Tolkien’s revisions
These first few pages of the chapter are pretty much the same as the Narn I Hîn Húrin in Unfinished Tales. Tolkien does add one speech f or Túrin, though. After Forweg says that he will take Túrin into his band as long as he will heed his words, Túrin answers: "I will...as long as you are captain, and in all that belongs to a captain. But the choice of a new man to a fellowship is not his alone, I judge. All voices should be heard. Are there any here who do not welcome me?" Also, in the Narn, Andróg says that there’s a "strange look" about Túrin; in CoH, he says that there’s a "strange light in your eyes."

What aspects of Túrin’s character do you think Tolkien was trying to emphasize with these added details? Another addition that Tolkien makes is to Andróg’s speech. In the Narn, Andróg says to Túrin, "I am not your match." In CoH, Andróg says, "I am not a chicken-heart, as men know; but I am not your match." Better?

Other comments
Please feel free to comment on anything else that interests you in these pages.

 

[Wynnie]

The chapter begins with the sentence "Now the tale turns again to Túrin." Does this sort of narrative signpost bug you?

[COLOR=333333]Doesn't bug me, but it seems less necessary now that the story is divided clearly into chapters. A chapter heading is a sufficient sign of a potential switch to a different topic. The transitional sentence feels like a holdover from an oral tale.[/COLOR]

Turin comes to a devastated land, where "Haleth’s folk for the most part" used to dwell but "owned no lord." This seems unusual. Why wouldn’t they have a lord?

[COLOR=333333]They seem to be self-sufficient, independent sorts, living in "scattered homesteads" -- like pioneers who'd settled a wild area.[/COLOR]

In LOTR, we get a picture of the aftermath of war in the hobbits’ return to the Shire; is the picture of war’s aftermath in CoH different?

[COLOR=333333]In the post-war Shire of LotR, the evildoers weren't outlaws; they'd taken control and warped the laws to suit their purposes. The folk of Haleth still maintain some sort of civilized society (the homes that the outlaws raid), though we get only glimpses of it here; they drive their ruffians out.[/COLOR]

If Túrin can see that the outlaws are behaving in an Orcish manner, why does he join them? Does he not have a sense of right and wrong? – he does call himself "the Wronged," after all.

[COLOR=333333]It's his self-destructive personality, and/or Morgoth's shadow, at work. He seems to have a huge chip on his shoulder with little cause. The "Wronged" title is ironic, clearly inapt from the reader's point of view. Perhaps on some level he does feel guilt for Saeros's death, and is punishing himself. Or perhaps since he's given Elvish society a try and never felt that he fit in, he's experimenting with something completely different. He does retain enough of a moral sense that he never entirely sinks to the level of his new associates.[/COLOR]

When Túrin is surrounded by archers, a strange sequence of events occurs. He "suddenly" stoops to pick up a stone at the same moment that an archer shoots at this face: "but it passed over him, and he sprang up again like a bowstring released and cast a stone at the bowman with great force and true aim; and he fell to the ground with broken skull." Túrin calls the dead archer a "luckless man." Is Túrin also a "luckless man"? Did the "luckless man" create his own ill fortune or was he a victim of fate? What role does pride play in these events? Is this episode evidence that Túrin is a "dangerous man," as Andróg calls him, and if so, how is he dangerous?

[COLOR=333333]Túrin's long training "in a hard school" serves him here; his agility and strength keep him alive and earn the respect of the outlaws. The adjective "luckless" seems a bit odd with regard to the archer, since it's his deliberate action that leads to his death. Though maybe he was unlucky to choose a target so well able to defend himself.[/COLOR]

These first few pages of the chapter are pretty much the same as the Narn I Hîn Húrin in Unfinished Tales.... What aspects of Túrin’s character do you think Tolkien was trying to emphasize with these added details?

[COLOR=333333]"As long as you are captain" hints to the reader that Forweg won't be, for long. "In all that belongs to a captain" is evidence of Túrin's pride, that he won't accept a subordinate role without reservations. I don't so much like the "chicken-heart" addition, as it brings to mind an old Bill Cosby routine.[/COLOR]

 

[squire]

A new, fruitful approach to reading The Children of Hurin. I can imagine the albums now:

To Nienor, My Sister, Whom I Slept With

Why Is There Saeros?

Turin Turambar Is a Very Lucky Fellow, Not!

Revenge

Miserableness
​

And following your original reaction, we must now ask, could peanut butter and jelly have stopped Glaurung?

 

[Aunt Dora Baggins]

 

[Saelind]

Regarding the people of Haleth. They were a people apart. "The Haladin did not live under the rule of the lords or many together, but each homestead was set apart and goverened it's own affairs, and they were slow to unite." The Silmarillion Chapter 17, "The Coming of Men into the West"

What I see happening is that Turin, having left Doriath. also wishes repudiate the high ways that he has learned from the Elves. He ultimately did not fit in with the Elvish people and the incident with Saeros was just the last link in a chain that had been growing. He had also spent much of his later teen years in the woods with Beleg. Survival was more important than fine manners. \

Remember also that he had not been in the company of his own since childhood. He had to be "socialized" to the society of men to some extent. Unfortuantely, he fell in with a band of cutthroats. But he would initally take his social cues from them.

Forweg is said to be wise and generous at times. Turin challenges him to show his wisdom and generosity as a good captain should. Androg is indeed hard but he obviously sees that he is no match for Turin.

 

[Modtheow]

As Wynnie and Saelind have pointed out, the people of Haleth are like pioneers, living in scattered homesteads and governing their own affairs. I guess I was wondering whether the fact that Haleth was a woman had anything to do with the way these people live or how they are regarded, or whether that fact is completely beside the point. I don’t think there’s any indication in CoH that Haleth was a woman, but in the Sil, chapter 17, we definitely get a story of her as the proud chief of her people.

Just as I was typing this, I realized that "haeleth" is also an Old English word for "man, hero, or warrior." A woman can be a haleth?

 

[Saelind]

I think you are right that the CoH doesn't tell you about the origins of the House. From the Sil and HOME, it says that the Haladin were always a people apart. Haleth's father, Haldad, united some of the folk and withstood a siege by the orcs. Haleth became the leader after the death of her father and brother and led them to Estolad and later Brethil. Though, she was a late addition appearing in the Later Quenta (WofJ). I wonder if Tolkien was thinking of Eowyn when he invented the Lady Haleth. Haleth the Hunter had been the "founder" of the Haladin. I find it personally facinating that he changed this House's origins in this way.

I think the addition of Haleth as the female leader of the House is reflective of Tolkien's change in his view of women in his "fairy-stories".

 

[FarFromHome]

(which I'd never realised), perhaps Tolkien was influenced by historical figures like Boudicca or the mythical Irish female leaders like Maeve and Aoife.

Someone also mentioned the similarity of the Haladin to early hobbits, with their life of wandering and hiding. So perhaps Smeagol's grandmother would be relevant here? It does seem as if Smeagol's folk had a matriarchal society.

 

[N.E. Brigand]

in Unfinished Tales for information on the Haladin -- squire presented on that here, including some illustrations of Haleth.