Children of Hurin, Chapter XVIII, The Death of Turin, Part Three, Pages 253-255.

[Curious]

Turin wanders to the Crossings of Teiglin where he asks Finduilas for counsel, and as he does so Mablung and eleven other elves appear. Turin tells Mablung that Glaurung is dead, and the elves praise him for the deed, but Turin shrugs off the praise and asks for news of his kin. Mablung tells Turin what happened to Morwen and Nienor, and Turin responds by deliberately mis-describing Nienor as brown, dark-haired, small, and slim; but Mablung says no, she was tall, blue-eyed, gloden haired, and "the very likeness in woman's form of Hurin her father." Mablung says "You cannot have seen her!"

Questions: Does Finduilas send Mablung to Turin? If so, is she doing Turin any favors? How does this relate to Turin finding Nienor on Finduilas's mound? Or does it relate at all?

If Nienor is "the very likeness in woman's form of Hurin her father," how could Turin have missed the resemblance? Wasn't Hurin short, though, and Nienor tall? Weren't there people in Brethil who would have known Hurin? After all, he was related and he and Huor spent time there in their youth. Why didn't anyone see the resemblance to Turin?

Why has it taken Mablung so many years to look for Nienor in Brethil? Shouldn't he have told the people in Brethil to look for a naked woman running through the woods just on principle immediately after Nienor escaped him?

What's wrong with brown, small, and slim people? Are any of Tolkien's heroes or heroines brown, small, and slim?

Turin then knows that Brandir told the truth, and says:

'Can I not, can I not, Mablung?' cried Turin. 'But why no! For see, I am blind! Did you not know? Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth! Therefore leave me! Go, go! Go back to Doriath, and may winter shrivel it! A curse upon Menegroth! And a curse on your errand! This only was wanting. Now comes the night!'

Questions: Why does Turin curse Doriath and Menegroth? For those who have read The Silmarillion, does Turin's curse have any effect? Or does Doriath fall for reasons unrelated to Turin's curse?

Is Turin correct that he has been groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth? How does he know? Why doesn't he blame ill chance instead?

Pardon me for asking, but what is the big deal about unknowing incest? Turin seems able to cope with Niniel's death, but when he finds out the accusations of incest are true, that is too much. How is it worse than killing Beleg by accident? And how is it worse than killing Brandir on purpose?

Incest, mostly knowing, happens regularly in human history even where it has been outlawed. Does incest happen regularly in Tolkien's Secondary World? Or is this the only time? How is incest different in Tolkien's Secondary World than in the Primary World? What would have happened to Nienor and Turin in Tolkien's Secondary World if they had just said "oh well" and settled down to raise their baby?

 

[Darkstone]

From the Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin, Folio 74a:

"..in every law of the Torah, if a man is commanded: 'Transgress and suffer not death' he may transgress and not suffer death, excepting idolatry, incest, and murder."

There's many other such similar instances in the Talmud, such as Yoma 82a and Kethuboth 19a: "There is nothing that can stand before saving life, with the exception of idolatry, incest and murder", and Pesachim 25a: "We may cure ourselves with anything except idolatry, incest and murder."

Of course Tolkien is Catholic, and (as I understand it) to Catholics no sin is considered unforgivable. So perhaps Old Testament rules are in play here?

 

[Curious]

And didn't Moses's father marry his aunt, making Moses the product of incest? Ex. 6:20. What about Lot's relationship with his daughters? Gen. 19:33. Of course the whole story of Adam and Eve and their children or Noah and his children implicitly raises questions of how those families could procreate without incest.

As you note, Mosaic law prohibited incest, but that seems like a new development and a break with the past and with the customs of other peoples like the Egyptians. The very fact that it had to be prohibited implies that it was happening.

Many years later King David's son Absalom instructs his men to kill King David's eldest son Amnon because Amnon had raped his sister Tamar, but it is unclear whether the unforgiveable crime was incest or rape, or whether Absalom would have taken the same action if the relationship had been consensual. 2 Sam. 13:1-32. And other than Amnon I'm unaware of any examples of incest being punished, although it is clearly forbidden in the Mosaic laws.

I'm not sure that there are any laws written by men forbidding incest in Tolkien's Secondary World, or that there is any necessity for such a law. And I don't think Nienor and Turin reacted as they did because they had broken the laws of men.

The only other incestuous union in Tolkien's world I can recall was the union of Ar-Pharazon and his cousin Miriel. That was also, obviously, considered a great sin, although in that case the Numenoreans had written a law expressly forbidding such a union. The fact that it was a forced marriage also made it sinful. Although Ar-Pharazon was the greater sinner and paid the greater price, Miriel was unable to prevent the sinking of Numenor, and herself with it. So their incestuous union was literally wiped from the face of the earth, along with the empire they ruled.

It does not seem to me that settling down and raising a family was an option for Turin and Nienor. Their curse would continue to affect them, their child, and everyone with whom they came in contact if they did not do something about it. Killing themselves may not have been the best or only solution, though.

In the Book of Lost Tales, I believe, Tolkien speaks of what happens to Turin and Nienor after they die. Mandos will not accept their souls, but Manwe takes mercy on them and allows them to cleanse themselves in a bath of fire and be numbered among the Valar! Then in the Final Battle Turin, now numbered among the Valar, delivers the death blow to Morgoth!

This was an early version of the tale, not incorporated into the later version in The Silmarillion, but I find it fascinating. Perhaps in a later version of the tale Turin and Nienor would not have become gods, but presumably there was an option available other than suicide, had they asked the Higher Powers for help. But settling down and raising a family was not, I think, an option without some sort of drastic intervention from the Higher Powers.

 

[CaptainMorgan]

Ye be right for sure, matey! But all those be examples from Genesis. Ye can’t be violating Mosaic law before Moses writes it, can ye?

BTW, the offspring of Lot and his daughters be Moab and Ammon. They be founders of the nations of Moab and Ammon. The Israelites thought they all be a pack of worthless bilge rats. So the question be, be they incestuous because it be written in the Bible? Or be it written in the Bible because the Israelites think they a bunch of scurvy swabs? Arrr! The story of Lot may be the first recorded instance of political propaganda!

As for the Perfesser,

"And the Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor had any before ever desired to do so."
-Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion.

“None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed half-sisters or half-brothers.”
-Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle-Earth, Vol X.

On the other hand, Arwen be Aragorn’s first cousin, albeit 61 times removed.

 

[Curious]

"And the Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor had any before ever desired to do so."
-Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion.

“None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed half-sisters or half-brothers.”
-Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle-Earth, Vol X.

Note that there was no need to write a law about incest because none of the Eldar had ever desired to wed with kin so near. This is in sharp contrast to the Bible.

Not all the biblical examples were from Genesis, though. Did you miss the part about Moses himself being a product of incest?

I'm less troubled by the tiny blood relationship between Aragorn and Arwen than by the fact that Aragorn is Arwen's foster brother, or by the age difference. I do find it interesting that Aragorn and Arwen skirt the borders of incest in more than one way. It just shows how hard it is to preserve aristocratic bloodlines without marrying relatives.

Also, we read very little about the feminine side of Aragorn's ancestry. Considering the small number of Dunedain in the north, I would expect a fair amount of interbreeding among second cousins, at least.

I'll have to take a closer look at the hobbit family trees with this issue in mind. As I recall, Merry, Pippin, and Bilbo are all Frodo's second cousins. No wonder the hobbits were so interested in family trees. If they weren't careful, they could violate the natural order and bring a curse upon their houses!

Also note that Eowyn and Eomer married aristocrats from Gondor, as did their grandfather. I would imagine that if we looked closely at the family trees of Rohan and Gondor, we would find a fair amount of intermarriage among the same aristocratic families. That's just one of the problems with aristocracy, especially in relatively small tribes.

Which leads me back to the Hebrews under Moses. Prohibiting incest forced the twelve tribes of Israel to look outside their own families for mates, and thereby promoted alliances by marriage between the twelve tribes. It also may have made it harder for powerful families to concentrate their power within the family, as the pharoahs had in Egypt. In other words, it may have undermined attempts to create an aristocracy among the Hebrew tribes. It doesn't seem like a hard restriction to most people today, who seem to have a limitless selection of mates, but in the ancient tribal setting, or even just prior to the Industrial Revolution, when people rarely traveled more than a day's walk from home, I would think it took some doing to avoid marrying relatives.

Also, nice pirate talk. Although I prefer this picture of the notorious Captain Morgan:

 

[CaptainMorgan]

Not all the biblical examples were from Genesis, though. Did you miss the part about Moses himself being a product of incest?

Moses still can't be writing Leviticus when he's naught but a gleam in his father's eye.


Which leads me back to the Hebrews under Moses. Prohibiting incest forced the twelve tribes of Israel to look outside their own families for mates, and thereby promoted alliances by marriage between the twelve tribes. It also may have made it harder for powerful families to concentrate their power within the family, as the pharoahs had in Egypt. In other words, it may have undermined attempts to create an aristocracy among the Hebrew tribes. It doesn't seem like a hard restriction to most people today, who seem to have a limitless selection of mates, but in the ancient tribal setting, or even just prior to the Industrial Revolution, when people rarely traveled more than a day's walk from home, I would think it took some doing to avoid marrying relatives.

Or mayhap they noticed the difference in vigor and longevity between their current generation and the patriarchs of old. Or it may have been a reaction against the incestuous practices of the Egyptian royalties.


Although I prefer this picture of the notorious Captain Morgan.

But where be the rum?

 

[Saelind]

Questions: Does Finduilas send Mablung to Turin? If so, is she doing Turin any favors? How does this relate to Turin finding Nienor on Finduilas's mound? Or does it relate at all?
*I think Turin gravitates towards Finduilas’s mound seeking an answer because Finduilas represented love and wisdom to him. Mablung happens to find him there but I don’t think Finduilas had anything to do with sending him. She’s whiling the hours away in the Halls of Mandos, most likely. There is no relation to Turin finding Nienor on the mound. It bookends the beginning of Turin’s time in Brethil which started at this mound.

If Nienor is "the very likeness in woman's form of Hurin her father," how could Turin have missed the resemblance? Wasn't Hurin short, though, and Nienor tall? Weren't there people in Brethil who would have known Hurin? After all, he was related and he and Huor spent time there in their youth. Why didn't anyone see the resemblance to Turin?
*A lot of Turin’s memories seem clouded so maybe it didn’t click for him that Nienor could at least be related. I think Hurin was short for someone coming from the House of Hador. Turin took after the House of Beor so the resemblance to anyone from the House of Hador would not be obvious. Maybe part of the curse’s “influence” was to cloud/confuse people’s memories so they don’t remember what people from other Houses looked like?

Why has it taken Mablung so many years to look for Nienor in Brethil? Shouldn't he have told the people in Brethil to look for a naked woman running through the woods just on principle immediately after Nienor escaped him?
*Mablung returned to Doriath to report his news first so this delayed him. I think also the People of Haleth were pretty much left alone by the elves and they did not deal with each other regularly. Mablung may not have felt comfortable approaching them. Morgoth could have obscured the trail, making it more difficult for Mablung to pick up traces of Nienor. And finally, going to the closest human settlement to look for a human would make too much sense!

What's wrong with brown, small, and slim people? Are any of Tolkien's heroes or heroines brown, small, and slim?
*I don’t think anything is wrong with them in Tolkien’s world. I think Turin was being ironic when he used this “description” of Nienor.

Turin then knows that Brandir told the truth, and says:


'Can I not, can I not, Mablung?' cried Turin. 'But why no! For see, I am blind! Did you not know? Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth! Therefore leave me! Go, go! Go back to Doriath, and may winter shrivel it! A curse upon Menegroth! And a curse on your errand! This only was wanting. Now comes the night!'

Questions: Why does Turin curse Doriath and Menegroth? For those who have read The Silmarillion, does Turin's curse have any effect? Or does Doriath fall for reasons unrelated to Turin's curse?
*He feels all his troubles started when he went there. He also blames Thingol and Melian for not doing more to keep Morwen and Nienor safe. Finally, for all Turin knows, Doriath is the last elven kingdom still standing. Turin’s curse alone does not cause the ultimate fall of Doriath but I’m sure the ill-will gave some fuel to the doom that was going to overtake it.

Is Turin correct that he has been groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth? How does he know? Why doesn't he blame ill chance instead?
*I wouldn’t say since he was a child. I think the “dark mist” surrounded him when he left Doriath. He was under Melian’s protection until that point. I would also say he became blinder as the years went by. He never seemed to learn from his mistakes. He was unable to see the “big picture” or that someone else’s opinion had merit. In a way, he never really grew up.

Pardon me for asking, but what is the big deal about unknowing incest? Turin seems able to cope with Niniel's death, but when he finds out the accusations of incest are true, that is too much. How is it worse than killing Beleg by accident? And how is it worse than killing Brandir on purpose?
*It doesn’t match Turin’s image of her in his head. He probably pictured her as a version of Laliath, innocent and untouched by evil. Some of it may be a mirror of our own “abhorrence” of incest. Finding out about his relationship with Nienor is just the last link in the chain that drives him over the edge.

Incest, mostly knowing, happens regularly in human history even where it has been outlawed. Does incest happen regularly in Tolkien's Secondary World? Or is this the only time? How is incest different in Tolkien's Secondary World than in the Primary World? What would have happened to Nienor and Turin in Tolkien's Secondary World if they had just said "oh well" and settled down to raise their baby?
*If incest is happening in Tolkien’s world besides the examples cited, he didn’t write about it. I suspect people find sibling/cousin incest less “disturbing” than parent/child incest. It all gives me the heebies jeebies though.