Character of the week: The Great Goblin (sorry its late)

[thorinoakenshield]

This weeks COTW is The Great Goblin. Personally, I was not a fan of Barry Humphries depiction of this character. I had always pictured him as a less comedic, and more creepy character. Nothing against the actor, I just did not think he was a good choice for the Great Goblin.

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?

3. In the AUJ appendecies, it is said that, at least in the movieverse, the goblin king is a completely different race entirely than the other goblins. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race? How did the Great goblin convince the other goblins to be under his rule?

4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?

I will edit this later and put a picture of him.

 

[Elskidor]

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

I woulda liked him more creepy and without the funky chin, but this way has began to grow on me...except the blasted chin.






2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?

If he was king of all then he was pretty weak. I don't like how easy he dies in the book or movie.


4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?

I go back and forth. The cartoon is very addictive, and this one may be as well one day. I have only heard it twice, so I'm giving it room to grow on me.

 

[Glorfindela]

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

Yes to both questions – and he reminds me of characters in artworks in 19th-century children's books. I liked Barry Humphries' somewhat manic voice, and the comedic/gross acting seemed appropriate to a Goblin. He also displayed some intelligence, which would have been necessary for him to become leader of all the other Goblins.

2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?

Don't know (and doesn't bother me not knowing).

3. In the AUJ appendecies, it is said that, at least in the movieverse, the goblin king is a completely different race entirely than the other goblins. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race? How did the Great goblin convince the other goblins to be under his rule?

Don't know to both questions (and again doesn't bother me). I would imagine that there may well be different races of creatures in Middle-Earth (like subspecies of a species).

4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?

I liked 'Down…', and haven't seen the old cartoon, so cannot compare the two.

Quick response with not much to say. [:|]

Thanks very much for posting this.

 

[Macfeast]

The Great Goblin was a character that I had some worries about beforehand, but come AUJ I found myself liking him a lot more than I thought I would.

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

I think it could have gone either way here; A more creepy portrayal of the Great Goblin would have been interesting to see, but the more comedic Great Goblin we ended up getting worked pretty well, all things considered.

2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?

I imagine him being king of Goblin-town only. He's quite capable of bossing around the goblins of Goblin-town (which I think of as weaker than, say, the goblins of Moria) by virtue of size alone, but pit him against more formidable, better-armed goblins, and I reckon he would have a harder time imposing his will upon them.

3. In the AUJ appendecies, it is said that, at least in the movieverse, the goblin king is a completely different race entirely than the other goblins. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race? How did the Great goblin convince the other goblins to be under his rule?

I was not aware that he was of a different race entirely, I just thought he was an unique specimen of the regular goblins under his rule. As for why he's in charge... he's big. Like, really big. I can't imagine any of the goblins under his rule being bold enough to try to usurp him. Maybe if they ganged up on him, they could take him, but no goblin is going to beat him one-on-one.

Incidentally, the first time I saw him, in the second trailer for AUJ ("well that could have been worse". *BAM*), I mistook him for a troll, wondering whether or not there would be trolls in Goblin-town.

4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?

There were some parts of it that I didn't like, like his "twirl-around-like-a-ballerina"-dance steps, or him throwing a goblin right into the camera, but as a whole, I really enjoyed it. Goblins may be miserable creatures, but they've got to have some sort of culture, something to occupy their time when they're not waylaying travellers... and singing songs (miserable and barbaric songs, perhaps, but songs nonetheless), seems like a reasonable thing for them to do. In fact, one of the things I liked the most about it was how the other goblins would join in on the song every now and then; A tiny sliver of depth to creatures that largely only exist to be put against our heroes' swords.

In any case, I am very glad for the fact that PJ and team are making an effort to have the songs be a part of the trilogy, even if they have to be relegated to the extended editions. This may be a more serious, dramatic retelling of the Hobbit, but moments like these are a nice homage to the more whimsical original.

 

[Salmacis81]

1. Like you, I felt the portrayal was too comedic. I remember being scared by the Great Goblin in the Rankin-Bass cartoon when I was a kid, and that picture of him kind of stuck with me. When I first saw AUJ, I intensely disliked the portrayal of the Great Goblin. But I don't mind him so much now. He is what he is.

2. I'd say just Goblin-town, since I don't see him having much control over, say, the Moria Goblins. Although, he was known to the rest of the Misty Mountain Goblins, because they flew into a rage when learning of his fate, which led to the Battle of Five Armies.

3. This whole thing is a reference to the book Morgoth's Ring, which says that some of the more prominent Orc leaders could have been part of a group of Maiar known as "Boldogs". This was one of Tolkien's later ideas regarding the origins of the Orcs. I don't know, I have a tough time thinking of this goofy character as one of the Ainur, so even if it was the writers' intent to have him be one of these "Boldogs", I'm just going to go on thinking of him as just a really big Goblin. Tolkien himself never even came to a definitive conclusion regarding the term "Boldog".

4. I didn't hate the new "Down to Goblin-town" like a lot of others here did, but again, it was a bit too jokey. Neither this nor the Rankin-Bass one are very good songs, but I think I get a bigger chuckle out of the old one. It is unintentionally hilarious.

 

[Kim]

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?
Yes, I thought he was a good choice, and I liked his comedic touch. To me, he came across as a ruler who was so arrogant and in control of his minions that he could be menacing and comedic at the same time. One minute he’s joking around, the next he’s throwing goblins off his perch.

2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?
I figured he was just the King of Goblin Town, kind of a petty warlord over his own small kingdom that was part of a greater whole.

3. In the AUJ appendecies, it is said that, at least in the movieverse, the goblin king is a completely different race entirely than the other goblins. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race? How did the Great goblin convince the other goblins to be under his rule?
I didn’t really think about that much, more that his huge size contributed to his power. Basically, he’s a huge bully who cowed the other goblins into submission.

4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?
I appreciate that they added it from the book. I saw the cartoon so many years ago that I don’t really remember it (need to re-watch it sometime). It was my least favorite of the new scenes, but I think it will grow on me the more times I watch it.

Additional comments: I really like the design of the GG, including the neck goiter. It's like he's so grotesque, you can't not look at him. And I for one liked the "that'll do it" and "well, that could've been worse!" The goblins actually creeped me out, so I appreciated the comedic touches to break that up.

Thanks for posting and no worries about being late - there's a lot going on lately!

 

[1415dr]

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

I didn't have any idea where they would go as far as presenting him with humor or horror. I think they made a good choice and made him one of the more memorable villains of all PJ's movies. It's a little better than just rage like the Urukhai or calm menace like Gothmog. Actually, he has more personality than most human characters (JK). My biggest complaint is how they made him so nasty. I don't want to see a festering, boil covered goiter hanging from anyone's chin. Especially someone who gets close-ups in 3D.

2. Not much is told about this character in Tolkien lore as far as I know, but we do know that he is king of Goblin Town. The question is, was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town? Your opinion?

I always assumed he was the head honcho of that particular section of the mountain (maybe there are more towns and cities with their own leaders). He's definitely not the boss of Moria. I can see Azog filling that role though. As far as the movie... he seems like a blundering idiot who got kicked out of all the good orc armies, so he found a tribe of tiny little goblins to lord over since he's the biggest.

3. In the AUJ appendecies, it is said that, at least in the movieverse, the goblin king is a completely different race entirely than the other goblins. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race? How did the Great goblin convince the other goblins to be under his rule?

I guess it doesn't matter. Among the many different species of orc, goblins are probably low on the ladder. Being a "great goblin" means he's just the best they could produce. Now that he's not really a goblin, I guess it's saying that it's just a title. They should have elaborated on what he really is. Inquiring minds like that kind of minutia.
I like PJ's GG being intelligent and witty. He probably just wandered to some poor goblin village, saw he was the biggest, sat on their current leader and demanded they call him king. They became his own private army of annoying twerps. Big-bad orcs like Azog in Moria probably negotiated with the GG, and his intellegence kept him part of some Misty Mountain alliance. As long as he could keep his crappy army from bothering the real orcs, they would negotiate with him. His only real job was to limit traffic of non-orcs through the mountains. At least, in my imagination.

4. How do you like "Down Down to Goblin Town in the AUJ EE compared to it in the old cartoon? Do you like that they added this?
Well, I consider myself a connoisseur of "Goblin Town" songs. Some of you folks may like your Elven poetry and prose eddas, but I like my songs simple and sung by Thurl Ravencroft (he's grrrrreat!). Here is my opinion: the 1977 cartoon had a great idea. Scare little kids to death with cowering dwarves and scary goblins, but put a catchy beat behind it so they don't cry themselves to sleep. I loved that part as a kid, and it seqways nicely into the 15 birds song later. I was terribly dissapointed when PJ's theatrical release only had a little verse sung by the GG, but even that was pretty awesome. It shows how entertainment deprived the goblins are and how crazy the GG is. I was surprised to see that a much longer song was included in the EE. I think they had a great idea. It probably looked great on paper. There was just something jarring about it. It was just slightly too "modern" (I understand that's what PJ was trying for). I watched that part about 15 times, and now it's growing on me. The only bad part is the goofyness of the GG killing one of his own men during the song instead of stabbing a dwarf. It's less believable for some reason. Also, the GG is disgusting. I don't like watching him jiggle. Final conclusion- could have done without it, but now I'm glad it's in there. It changes the tone of the whole encounter. Some good some bad.

P.S.- for me, the definitive version of the Goblin Town song is a little creepy chant done on the BBC radio version. The Bilbo and Dwarf voice actors are confused and scared, and the goblins capture them. Then, as they lead them down to an unknown fate where nobody can help them, they beat them with whips and laugh at them. The song changes from being a silly simple poem to a really menacing nightmare. "Down down far underground you go my lad..." imagine yourself hearing that! It's frightening. They chant it in unison with raspy voices. It's really scary. I think this one of Tolkein's best skills as an author: to show some villain delighting over the suffering of others so that it sends chills up your spine. He does this perfectly with Sauron at the fall of Numenor. SPOILER: as everyone is being killed Sauron himself is sitting on a throne laughing hysterically. PJ did a good job with this same idea when the Mouth of Sauron gloats over the supposed death of Frodo. Seeing a disgusting monster smile and laugh when you are in anguish is genuinely jarring. I think the Goblin Song does that perfectly.

 

[kjeevah]

3. This whole thing is a reference to the book Morgoth's Ring, which says that some of the more prominent Orc leaders could have been part of a group of Maiar known as "Boldogs". This was one of Tolkien's later ideas regarding the origins of the Orcs. I don't know, I have a tough time thinking of this goofy character as one of the Ainur, so even if it was the writers' intent to have him be one of these "Boldogs", I'm just going to go on thinking of him as just a really big Goblin. Tolkien himself never even came to a definitive conclusion regarding the term "Boldog".

Well, don't forget that Radagast is also a maiar

 

[kjeevah]

I remember being scared by the Great Goblin in the Rankin-Bass cartoon when I was a kid,

that's the thing though, you were a kid. I wouldn't mind betting that kids of the same age would find this version just as if not more scary.

 

[Salmacis81]

But the one in the Rankin-Bass cartoon wasn't dancing around like a buffoon. And his angry howl at the sight of Orcrist is STILL pretty frightening - "Murderers!! Elf-friends!!"

The AUJ Great Goblin certainly looked the part, but I could have done without the whole "hamming it up" aspect of his character.

 

[Salmacis81]

And I think he was a bit overdone as well.

 

[MistyMountain]

Over all, I like the GG and the version in the EE is a nice addition in my opinion. I have only one, tiny nitpick on what seems a modern touch -- at the end of the song, he does a pumping action with his right arm in a cocked position. This seems a modern movement. That motion really reminds me of something but not sure what I associate it with -- reminiscent of rock & roll performers? Well, whatever it is from, it annoys me. Totally out of place in Middle Earth.

 

[sauget.diblosio]

1. Did you think that Barry Humphries was a good choice for the Goblin King? Did you like his comedic touch to the character?

I thought his voice worked well, and there were moments when the Great Goblin seemed both humorous and creepy, and i do like the idea of the humorously verbose yet still scary villain. There were just way too many cheap gags and gross out jokey bits for my taste. I think Humphrys could have worked, but the writing and design just wasn't there-- too many PJ-isms.

2. Was he king of all the goblins of the Misty Mountains, or just Goblin Town?

Seems like Goblin Town was his own little cult-like pocket of M-e. Don't really see him ruling over a vast army or kingdom.

3. Do you like that he is not a goblin, but a new race?

I don't know about a different race, but i'm fine with PJ differentiating between goblins and orcs-- makes sense visually.

4. How do you like 'Down Down to Goblin Town' in the EE compared to the old cartoon?

Never seen the cartoon, but i think it is pretty terrible.