Chapter Discussion, The Black Gate is Closed, part one

[Hamfast Gamgee]

Welcome to this week's Chapter discussion of the The Two Towers, The black gate is closed. This is a short but important chapter so I won't be making that many threads on it.

1) Description City

There is an awful lot of description in this chapter, the first page in particulair. Really all that is happening is that the Hobbits are looking at the Black Gate, it could be summerizied in a sentance, but here Tolkien loves his capitol letters. Lots of phrases like, the Teeth of Mordor, the Morannon, the Dark Lord, Cirith Gorgor. One can almost smell the stence from the words. Are there any opinions in this general style of writing?

2) Frodo's despair

Frodo doesn't see any way out here and resolves to make a hopeless decision. It isn't said but now does Frodo possibly regret his decision to take up with the Ring? Did anyone tell him precisely how hopeless this situation might actually have been?

3) Gollum's advice

Well Frodo decides to knock on Sauron's front door. But Gollum begs him not to and gives him a possible alternative route. Are there only two routes into Mordor? If one looks at the map, maybe one could go right around the Mountains of Shadow, and approach Mount Doom from behind? Not much hope that way I suppose. But not much hope in this one! And possibly even with a rope couldn't one attempt to scale the Mountains of Shadow and find a pass perhaps? Oh, and Smeagol gives himself away a little here

4) Smeagol's suggestion

Just a thought, but is Gollum the only one outside Mordor that knows about Citith Ungol? Maybe Gandalf has been that way and is aware or possibly Aragorn? Aragorn does seem to have been everywhere in Middle-Earth so he might have been aware of it.

 

[sador]

This is a short but important chapter so I won't be making that many threads on it.
Because it's important? [shocked]

Anyway, this is a chapter of which I am especially fond - it was the first RR discussion I have led.


1) Description City
One can almost smell the stence from the words. Are there any opinions in this general style of writing?
I love it.
But check Curious' objection in my signature!

2) Frodo's despair
It isn't said but now does Frodo possibly regret his decision to take up with the Ring?
I'm sure he does so on a daily basis.
But Frodo seems to accept Gandalf and Elrond's assertion that this task is laid upon him by the Powers (whatever they might be - in The Lord of the Rings they are not specified, except for maybe Elbereth and the Elder King). At the Council of Elrond, he felt as if it was some other voice speaking rather than his - he is not concious of any knowing decision.

Did anyone tell him precisely how hopeless this situation might actually have been?
Gollum did, in The Taming of Smeagol (the movies divided this telling between Boromir and Gimli).

3) Gollum's advice
Are there only two routes into Mordor?
At the very least, there must have been a highway from Minas Morgul, and presumably another Gate.

If one looks at the map, maybe one could go right around the Mountains of Shadow, and approach Mount Doom from behind?
Very long, very exposed, the food will run out, perhaps no water. No chance of any help ever coming that way (think of Faramir - but also of Frodo's vision of Gondorian armies). And then Barad-dur would be on the way to Mount Doom, with no good place to turn South.

And possibly even with a rope couldn't one attempt to scale the Mountains of Shadow and find a pass perhaps?
The hobbits couldn't even cross the lesser Morgai in The Land of Shadow.

Oh, and Smeagol gives himself away a little here
Yess, he does.

4) Smeagol's suggestion
Just a thought, but is Gollum the only one outside Mordor that knows about Citith Ungol?
I would guess that for a long time, nobody has been up that way - so nobody knoes for sure. But Gondor does have relevant lore - check Faramir's words at the end of The Forbidden Pool.
Also technically, the Nazgul running Dol Guldur at the present is outside Mordor, and I expect he knows the pass.

Maybe Gandalf has been that way and is aware or possibly Aragorn?
I doubt it. The "name of terror" is mentioned - but might refer to the actual path, which only a spider might walk, rather than the moster lurking in it!

Aragorn does seem to have been everywhere in Middle-Earth so he might have been aware of it.
Aragorn only mentions treading the Morgul Vale, so he probably didn't cross it to the Mountains beyond.

 

[Darkstone]

Welcome to this week's Chapter discussion of the The Two Towers, The black gate is closed. This is a short but important chapter so I won't be making that many threads on it.

There are no short chapters, only short, er, something elses.


1) Description City

There is an awful lot of description in this chapter, the first page in particulair. Really all that is happening is that the Hobbits are looking at the Black Gate, it could be summerizied in a sentance, but here Tolkien loves his capitol letters. Lots of phrases like, the Teeth of Mordor, the Morannon, the Dark Lord, Cirith Gorgor. One can almost smell the stence from the words. Are there any opinions in this general style of writing?

The use of kennings was a distinctive feature of Anglo-Saxon literature. Thus any decent translation would naturally have a lot of metaphors in it. This could be considered as a nod to the conceit that this is a translation of The Red Book. Or maybe Tolkien had a compulsion to pair every noun with an adjective. (No doubt the type of pathology only philologists get.)



2) Frodo's despair

Frodo doesn't see any way out here and resolves to make a hopeless decision. It isn't said but now does Frodo possibly regret his decision to take up with the Ring?

Decision? Do you really think the managers of the horse and pony show that was the Council of Elrond didn’t intend all along that Frodo would be the poor sap left holding the ring? (Note Jackson foreshadows this nicely in FOTR with The Council of Hobbits in Farmer Maggot’s field where Sam is left standing holding the stolen vegetables.)

If Frodo regrets anything it’s being shanghaied into this quest.


Did anyone tell him precisely how hopeless this situation might actually have been?

No. They knew that if anyone told him he wouldn’t have gone. Given that nobody did tell him reveals the full extent of The Conspiracy of the Wise. Frodo never had a chance.


3) Gollum's advice

Well Frodo decides to knock on Sauron's front door. But Gollum begs him not to and gives him a possible alternative route. Are there only two routes into Mordor?

There’s the right way, the wrong way, and the Eagle way.

Then again:

"No other way?” said Faramir. "How do you know that? And who has explored all the confines of that dark realm?” He looked long and thoughtfully at Gollum.


If one looks at the map, maybe one could go right around the Mountains of Shadow, and approach Mount Doom from behind? Not much hope that way I suppose.

Yeah, he could have tried to out-flank Mordor by going all around to the back, but they’d probably all have beards by then. Even the Elves.


But not much hope in this one! And possibly even with a rope couldn't one attempt to scale the Mountains of Shadow and find a pass perhaps?

They almost got killed doing even the most elementary of mountain climbing. If they tried to scale the Mountains of Shadow there’d be two more greasy spots on the floor of the Emyn Muil.


Oh, and Smeagol gives himself away a little here.

4) Smeagol's suggestion

Just a thought, but is Gollum the only one outside Mordor that knows about Citith Ungol?

Faramir seems to. I’d bet Denethor does too, and anybody familiar with Gondorian lore. And no doubt all the Wise. But the Wise never mentioned it because they didn’t think Frodo would ever get this far.


Maybe Gandalf has been that way and is aware or possibly Aragorn? Aragorn does seem to have been everywhere in Middle-Earth so he might have been aware of it.

No doubt Aragorn is familiar with Gondorian lore, so yes.

As for Gandalf, he only knows what Eru wants him to know. He is sometimes surprizingly insightful, yet other times curiously forgetful.

Like Mongo, Gandalf is just pawn in game of life.

 

[PhantomS]

1) Description City

There is an awful lot of description in this chapter, the first page in particulair. Really all that is happening is that the Hobbits are looking at the Black Gate, it could be summerizied in a sentance, but here Tolkien loves his capitol letters. Lots of phrases like, the Teeth of Mordor, the Morannon, the Dark Lord, Cirith Gorgor. One can almost smell the stence from the words. Are there any opinions in this general style of writing?

No one in the story (apart from the half crazed Gollum and the absent Aragorn) has been to Mordor or the Black Gate, so descriptions are necessary as no one has experienced them first hand to relate to the reader- normally it's Gandalf, Treebeard or Aragorn (or some local person like Widfara) but here we have no one to tell us the story of this very evil black gate with pointy things.

2) Frodo's despair

Frodo doesn't see any way out here and resolves to make a hopeless decision. It isn't said but now does Frodo possibly regret his decision to take up with the Ring? Did anyone tell him precisely how hopeless this situation might actually have been?

He'd already seen the place (Mordor) from Amon Hen and 'hope left his heart'. He recovered slightly when separating from the others but now the Black Gate is up close he really feels empty and near dead. If it wasn't for Faramir giving him seome respite he would have given up somewhere on Cirith Ungol.


3) Gollum's advice

Well Frodo decides to knock on Sauron's front door. But Gollum begs him not to and gives him a possible alternative route. Are there only two routes into Mordor? If one looks at the map, maybe one could go right around the Mountains of Shadow, and approach Mount Doom from behind? Not much hope that way I suppose. But not much hope in this one! And possibly even with a rope couldn't one attempt to scale the Mountains of Shadow and find a pass perhaps? Oh, and Smeagol gives himself away a little here

No one really had a plan on how to get into Mordor and actually do the deed; half the Fellowship initially didn't want to go , and Boromir never did. No one crosses the White or Misty Mountains apart from the Redhorn Pass and High Pass, so the Black Mountains are probably just as hard to climb. Going round is suicide- no one knows what is south of the Sea of Rhun and east in Khand. Aragorn might know, but again he's not here to help. It's very hostile territory- if Frodo had read on some Gondor history or Boromir had told him, he would know that passing under the Sea of Rhun means going through Easterling territory, Wainriders and Variags awaiting on the east side. That angry volcano and supertower (Orthanc, when compared is like a child's model imitation) is not for the faint hearted either.

In any case Frodo was tired and couldn't go past the Black Gate eastwards- he'd be spotted on that empty plain easily. He asks Gollum how he got out and thus he learns of Cirith Ungol- for all Frodo knows that is the only way to go. There's no one to tell him otherwise and for all he knows the gang is dead.


Just a thought, but is Gollum the only one outside Mordor that knows about Citith Ungol? Maybe Gandalf has been that way and is aware or possibly Aragorn? Aragorn does seem to have been everywhere in Middle-Earth so he might have been aware of it.

Faramir tells Frodo that in earlier days when Gondor could hold Ithillien scouts did know about it, but now graybeards barely remember it, much less the younger Gondorians like Faramir, who himself probably only knows because of his priviledged education. Gandalf says 'to the East I go not' while Aragorn did go that way, but we don't know how he got into Mordor- he knows about Nurnen and the Inland Sea and the slaves, though that could have been after Sauron had fallen and Gondor went in to clean up.

 

[Hamfast Gamgee]

Given the nature of Mountains, Orc behavior and Sauron, is it not impossible to believe that there might be a path, passage or even a tunnel through the Mountains of Shadow? Naturally it might be occupied or come out somewhere no-one knows or maybe halfway up a mountain the other side. But they could use the Elven-cloaks to be unseen. Or maybe even the Ring. No-one said this was going to be easy!