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Hermoor
Lindon
Feb 25 2011, 10:26pm
Post #1 of 20
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Morgoth vs Tom Bombadil
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Can someone enlighten me on who would win in a battle between the two on neutral ground?
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 26 2011, 12:26am
Post #2 of 20
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We don't know what he's cabable of. It seems to be me his createst ability is to be unaffected by other powers, not that he'd have much destructive powers in himself. He's more like an observer than an effector.
Also, the skills and the nature of these skills of Melkor-Morgoth is greatly dependant on which stage of his life we're talking about. Melkor of the Age of Lamps? I doubt Tom could do much else to do save his life expect run like hell. But at the Ages of the Sun, he was just a weak coward pwned by a Maia, and so scared and confused by Arien in her sunship he didn't even dare to come out of his cave. Tom might well have upper hand on him.
(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Feb 26 2011, 12:28am)
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Hermoor
Lindon
Feb 26 2011, 1:58am
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Well we really need to compare the two.
Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
He was in arda before the dark lord, he must be reffering to Melkor. This means that in a sense he is older than Melkor, now age and wisdom could mean more power.
He displays great magical control that far surpasses any elf or maia in existence. I would say even Sauron himself. Not even Sauron could make things dissapear just like that as Tom did with the ring.
Also I doubt Sauron knew how to teleport to the location of some hobbits singing in less than a sec. This means he is more powerful than any elf or maia.
So we got two possabilites, either he is a Vala or he is Eru himself. He can't be Eru that is impossible since Tolkien said so...could he be a vala? There is a possability, but I'm not sure in what order the valas entered Arda. What valas were inside arda before the dark lord Morgoth entered?
Anyway there is another possability, at the instant of creation Eru sent out beings all around the world to sing it into existence. These were the valas correct? But also other beings? I'm not sure...
Anyway since Tom is singing a lot and has a very powerful voice that has the ability to control most things. Maybe he is one of the beings that helped Eru create the world?
If this is the case then he is basically a unknown vala? Maybe he is like a servant of Eru, who has some kind of connection the the world of Arda that no other vala has. He has control of all beings and matter in the world since he helped Eru create it.
But does he have control over Melkor? I don't think he has since no other Vala seems to have it. This means Tom probably wouldn't be able to make Melkor run away by singing.
I think it would be a even match, the winner would be the one who had Eru on his side....
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 26 2011, 8:43am
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Gandalf says in the Council of Elrond that Bombadil will fall "last as he was first" to a diminished Sauron.....
Morgoth, would've wiped out a Third Age Sauron.
So Morgoth would have destroyed Tom and his ditties like a foot stomping on a bug.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Feb 26 2011, 8:44am)
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 26 2011, 10:35am
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Tolkien wrote Sauron in Thrid Age was stronger than Morgoth in First Age. That's how much the Dark Lord 1.0 had been reduced in power.
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Hermoor
Lindon
Feb 26 2011, 1:04pm
Post #6 of 20
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We said on neutral ground, Sauron had balrogs, armies of orcs under his rule. I think even Morgoth would have fallen if the elves lead by Tom would have conquered all the lands around him.
On neutral ground means if they would have met in the middle of nowhere only the two of them and decided to engage eachother in battle. I doubt Morgoth would have much power if it wouldn't be for his armies of orcs, balrogs, spiders and werewolves.
(This post was edited by Hermoor on Feb 26 2011, 1:06pm)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 26 2011, 6:08pm
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Tolkien wrote, in 'Myths Transformed #7' that a SECOND AGE Sauron, I.e., one holding The Ring of Power was more powerful than Morgoth....
humm, I just happened to have quoted it the other day & have the book handy:
(seriously, lol)
'Sauron was greater, 'effectively' in the second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.'
So, I'll still stand by what I said. 
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 26 2011, 11:20pm
Post #8 of 20
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Thanks for the correction!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 28 2011, 4:54pm
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Behind every successful man stands a woman, and I don't see anyone that has Morgoth's back.
******************************************
Pippin: "When you guys fall in the forest, does it make a sound?"
Bregalad: "Are you kidding? Scott fell last week and he hasn't shut up about it since!"
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Wraith Buster
Mithlond
Mar 3 2011, 3:31am
Post #10 of 20
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Pedich Edhellen? Lau? Hria cuilë.
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Gimli'sBox
Mithlond
Mar 3 2011, 1:23pm
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True!!! Goldberry could probably take Morgoth out herself, girl power and all. *evil grin*//
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Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing the evidently prefer.
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Patty
Elvenhome
Mar 3 2011, 1:50pm
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true. Ungoliath was ready to "stab" him in the back. /
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Permanent address: Into the West
Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 3 2011, 2:11pm
Post #13 of 20
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The way I heard it, was: "Behind every successful man stands a very surprised woman".
"Let me think!" - Aragorn.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back! Please join us in the Reading Room for Book III.
"Eomer says there’s always smoke above that valley. However, he’s never seen anything like this, and these are steams, not smoke. He suggests Saruman is boiling the Isen (Again, Gandalf suggests he’s right…wow, he really likes messing with people!)."
- Milady.
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Patty
Elvenhome
Mar 3 2011, 2:24pm
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*mods up to the stratosphere.* /
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Permanent address: Into the West
Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!
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glorinfidell
Nevrast
Mar 9 2011, 11:59pm
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I've never read Myths Transformed. Is it a good book? Also, it depends on what time peroid Morgoth were talking it about. Because his power declined over time as he wrecked havoc through arda. So i'm going to have to go with Tom.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Mar 13 2011, 3:46am
Post #16 of 20
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In reality, it is not a physical fight but a spiritual one.....
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whose inner divine power was stronger? That question is unknown....the debate includes Tom and Golberry as possible Valar..but it does not really work out....and as possible lesser maia etc. Nature spirits seems to fit....
I think it is really a matter of decay and ruin eventually overtaking the ability of life to grow and they could have been "defeated" in that sense...possibly. My guess is that they would leave earth if they could, but they may be tied to the earth, and, would be constantly working to overcome the decay...even if it failed soon after coming into existence.
Wait till Tom sings his forest friends into action...he could probably call ents, huorns angry deer, killer rabbits, flocks of birds, angry bees and other surprises for any physical component to the conflict.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 13 2011, 3:50am)
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Dalurtid
Nevrast
Apr 11 2011, 1:45am
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Yeah I agree, I think Tom has the spirits of nature on his side. And could probably sing all trees left in the world to aid him. I always thought he was an nature spirit like Goldberry. But the difference between them being that Tom is the spirit of Arda...while Goldberry is the spirit of a river. Which explains why she calls him the one and the oldest...
To defeat Tom you would have to defeat Arda...that includes Valinor. Which is why I doubt anyone but Eru could end Tom's existence...
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Apr 11 2011, 4:42am
Post #18 of 20
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what I was getting at. I think of Sauron as his minions as vandals...graffiti, knocking over headstones, trampling gardens etc. and Tom and Goldberry always trying to replant and fix what was broken. I think a Sauron victory would have led to Tom loosening his self imposed limitations. He could no longer tend and maintain one place, rather, he would have to go everywhere trying to repair the damage, if possible. A small flower growing on a volcanic slop is an example. If his efforts are always in vain he may throw in the towel and withdraw, or at least abide his time.
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Dalurtid
Nevrast
Apr 11 2011, 5:46pm
Post #19 of 20
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The song of the Ainur - Nature - Nature's spirits - Tom/goldberry
Tom being the greatest of the spirits, could any of the ainur undo their song? End the spirits of their song?
I doubt it, which is why I think in a direct confrontation between Morgoth and Tom. Neither would defeat the other...
It would be a draw...
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