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Darklord133
Registered User
Apr 24 2008, 1:11am
Post #1 of 8
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Isengard-Mordor vice-versa
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we all know that Isengard attacked Helm's Deep, and Mordor Minas Tirith, but what if the attacking armies switched? What do you think would happen if Helm's Deep was attacked by Mordor and then Isengard attacked Minas Tirith? It could change the entire outcome of the war of the ring! Like if Mordor conquers Helm's Deep, Rohan is essentially destroyed, while Isengard lays siege to Minas Tirith. Of course we have to take into account Mordor reinforcements. My friend thinks that Minas Tirith will be able to hold out against Isengard's 10,000 Uruk-Hai and their various weapon's of the siege, but I disagree. I need some opinions to prove him wrong!
All that we must decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
- Gandalf the Grey
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Gaffer Gamgee
Nevrast
Apr 24 2008, 2:29am
Post #2 of 8
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Can you give us more information? For example, how determined is Sauron? Does he send out the same army he sent against Minas Tirith? And if someone wins, will they go to the other battle's aid? And will Eomer and his army come again to Theodens aid? I am assuming that we have the same members of the Company etc. I am interested to know why you think that Isengard would defeat Minas Tirith.
Heed the words of the Gaffer. For even if they not be wise, they are worth listening to.
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Darklord133
Registered User
Apr 24 2008, 8:31pm
Post #3 of 8
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Sauron is just as determined, no, the army he sent to Minas Tirith goes to Helm's Deep while Saruman's army replaces them, yes, they will go as aids, Eomer will come to aid Theoden in Helm's Deep only against a different army, Company remains the same. I believe that Isengard will conquer Minas Tirith because of the lack of reinforcements. I think that Sauron's army will destroy Helm's Deep even with reinforcements, and then help out with Minas Tirith. But I think that even before that Isengard will take Minas Tirith because of the simple reason that no reinforcements will come, there aren't enough defenders, the defences may be good, but still have no chance against 10,000 Uruk-Hai (Who happen to be better trained then Sauron's army) and various wargs and weapons of the siege.
All that we must decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
- Gandalf the Grey
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Gaffer Gamgee
Nevrast
Apr 24 2008, 9:45pm
Post #4 of 8
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Still don't see how Isengard wins...
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Who actually, I would argue, are not better trained than Sauron's army. It is mentioned that the orcs sent against Minas Tirith are above average orcs; not just a meaningless rabble. Another thing to mention - in Isengard's army, they did not have any Wargs. Also, they did not have any trolls, or siege towers, or any battering ram. The Uruk-hai would not be able to get beyond the outer gate. The siege ladders were too short for Minas Tirith's walls, and the bomb, while it may still destroy the gate, would not have been activated - he would have been killed by Minas Tirith's numerous archers/trebuchet.
Therefore, this is what I think would happen: Sauron's army against Helm's Deep would win, but they would be severely depleted, unless they had sent in the Mumakil straight on. They would not have many orcs left - you saw what the charge of the Rohirrim did to both the Uruk-hai at Isengard and the orcs at Minas Tirith. So most of the orcs would be gone, but I'd say that all the siege engines would still be active, and the catapults, trolls etc, and the Mumakil and Grond, which would hardly have been needed. This army would then go off to Minas Tirith, to help off Isengard's army who haven't been able to do anything because - correct me if I'm wrong - they had no archers, and no way to get in, so they just stayed out of range and didn't get depleted, being at least slight ly smart - though they did have one unsuccesful attempt at breaching the gate. And the head-on rush at first did kill some of them. So they're probably at around 9,500 now - ish. Sauron's army walks on scene. Uruk-hai aren't too happy that they're about to be upstaged by 'Mordor rats' and start a fight. Mordor is decimated further, and the commander (that ugly dude whose head looks pale and wierd, with something like a brain sticking out of his shoulder - can't remember his name) is possibly dead. So now, Mordor pretty much only has the big stuff (trolls, siege towers, catapults, Grond) which can do a lot, but they just might not be able to take over Minas Tirith. But if they didn't have the fight, they definitely would have been able to. So that's my conclusion.
P.S. We are talking about the movie version of events, and not the book right?
Heed the words of the Gaffer. For even if they not be wise, they are worth listening to.
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SmeagoloftheStoors
Menegroth
Apr 25 2008, 5:12am
Post #5 of 8
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I think that Isengaurd would get wiped out by the better organized Gondorian forces, and Mordor would have cleaned up at Helm's Deep. The over all effect would be the lack of assistance from Rohan (duh), but I think that wouldn't change the ending of it. After Sauron wiped out Rohan, he would have to take out Gondor, and thus a force march to the fields of Pelenor, and a massive attack. The difference in time would mean that Frodo and Sam would have finished their job about the time that Gondor was under seige, and the bottom would have dropped out on the power of Mordor and Aragorn would have saved himself a trip to the Black Gate.
Eglario Valar!
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Padster
Nevrast
Apr 25 2008, 1:28pm
Post #6 of 8
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Sauron’s trust in Saruman’s ability to kill off the Rohirrim is a bit of a flaw it must be said.
The short answer, IMHO, is that firstly Mordor would have quickly SMASHED Helm’s Deep, but then suffered, even if finally victorious, at the hands of Treebeard’s Hourns. And secondly, that I don’t think Isengard could have defeated Gondor, no way I’m afraid.
The LONG answer is this...
What were to actual key events that happened? The key events of March are listed below. Basically if Sauron had sent the armies that assaulted Minas Tirith against Helms Deep, then Helm’s Deep would have been crushed before the Hourns of Treebeard would have arrived, and even if they did Mordor’s VASTLY superior numbers (must more than Saruman had available, would probably have defeated the Hourns too, even if it cost them a lot. Rohan would then be crushed.
CRITICALLY I think Mordor would have lost a massive number of troops in the victory, as I don’t supposed Hourns die easy, and I can’t see them being scared by the Nazgûl..
CRITICALLY Aragorn, Eomer and Theoden would have been amongst the dead. Gandalf and Erkenbrand (and it was Erkenbrand of West-fold that REALLY came to the aid of Helm’s Deep, not Eomer. Eomer was already there with Theoden, but because PJ hasn’t the brains he was born with. PJ change it for the movie) and the small number of Rohirrim he had left with him after the defeat at the Fords of Isen, possibly would not have been killed.
What would Gandalf and Erkenbrand have done? Probably fled by the best and speediest way possible to Gondor. They would NOT have taken Eowyn, she would have had no opportunity to join them and they would think she and the people were better off in Dunharrow anyway.
CRITICALLY, with Aragorn dead (there is NO way he would have survived the fall of Helm’s Deep), he would not have taken the Paths of the Dead and defeated the forces of Umbar. Southern Gondor would have been ravaged by the Corsairs and they would be in a position to reinforce the attack on Minas Tirith in due course.
If we assume that attack on Minas Tirith took place at the same time as in the book, just with the forces of Isengard instead, then the attack would begin around the 13th March, well after Gandalf and Erkenbrand could have arrived.
CRITICALLY, Minas Tirith would now get no more re-enforcements.
Minas Tirith would then be attacked by Isengard on the 14th March, but the gates would certainly not have been broken, for if Mordor was up bashing Rohan, then Grond is not on Pelennor, and the Witch-king isn’t there either.
The Corsairs would arrive on the 15th although how many is debatable, as a lot would be attacking the costs of Gondor and Dol Amroth in particular. Either way the forces riled against Minas Tirith would be nothing compared to the forces of Mordor as they were in the book.
I think we’d have to assume Mordor would have taken Osgiliath to get to Rohan, much earlier in the month, but with no assault by Mordor on Minas Tirith, and no Nazgûl around, Faramir wouldn’t have been wounded and would be available to help in the defense and rally the troops. Denethor would still be mad and his fear made reality when the Corsairs arrive.
Minas Tirith would have Gandalf, Faramir, Imrahil and Erkenbrand (in whom the valour of Helm the Hammerhand was reborn, as Theoden put it) to lead the troops, and a tidy quarter they are. And Gandalf would still DEAL with Denethor and take him out of the loop.
With the Cavalry of Gondor, the Knights of Dol Amroth and the few Rohirrim of Erkenbrand, Gondor would have a lot of cavalry and would have had to break the siege at some point. I think without the fear imbued in the defenders by the Witch-King and the Nazgûl, with courageous leaders and the aid of Gandalf the White, Gondor would have defeated Isengard and the Corsairs, although most of the rest of Gondor would have been heavily wounded as the Corsairs would have had free reign to attack (with no Army of the Dead to wipe them out). Losses on both side would likely be heavy.
Which would leave a hugely weakened Mordor force coming south to face a weakened Gondor force still holed up in Minas Tirith on or around, say, the 22nd-23rd March, as it would take a non-cavalry force much longer than the nine days it took Theoden to get to Minas Tirith from Helm’s Deep. This battle would be MUCH more different than the book battle. Having said that Mordor would have sent the forces that were held in reserve, that attacked the West at Morannon in the book, so the odds would still be overwhelming against Gondor.
The gates of Minas Tirith would have been broken on the 23rd-24th March, but with no arrival of the Rohirrim to stop the fight between the Lord of the Nazgûl and Gandalf the White, there would have been a big ruck, and Gandalf would have won. The Witch-King would have been destroyed and his spirit would flee back to Sauron. Sauron’s forces would have fled for a time, probably long enough for the 25th to come, and the Ring to be destroyed.
So Minas Tirith would have seen the disintegration of the forces of Mordor on Pelennor as Sauron died, the Nazgûl too, and Gandalf would no doubt had then be joined by the Eagles, and the forces of Gondor and Rohan would have mopped them up and Gandalf would have retrieved the Ring-bearers from Mount Doom.
And by now, of course, only the four hobbits and Gandalf remain of the company. Bummer!
Cheers
Padster
March
2 ROHAN Gandalf comes to Edoras and heals Théoden. The
Rohirrim ride west against Saruman. Second Battle of
Fords of Isen. Erkenbrand defeated.
ENTS Entmoot ends in after-noon. The Ents march on
Isengard and reach it at night.
3 ROHAN Théoden retreats to Helm's Deep. Battle of the
Hornburg begins.
ENTS Ents complete the destruction of Isengard.
4 ROHAN Théoden and Gandalf set out from Helm's Deep for
Isengard.
FRODO Frodo reaches the slag-mounds on the edge of the
Desolation of the Morannon.
5 ROHAN Théoden reaches Isengard at noon. Parley with
Saruman in Orthanc. Winged Nazgûl passes over the
camp at Dol Baran. Gandalf sets out with Peregrin
for Minas Tirith.
FRODO Frodo hides in sight of the Morannon, and leaves at
dusk.
6 ROHAN Aragorn overtaken by the Dúnedain in the early
hours. Théoden sets out from the Hornburg for
Harrowdale. Aragorn sets out later.
7 FRODO Frodo taken by Faramir to Henneth Annûn.
ARAGORN Aragorn comes to Dunharrow at nightfall.
8 ARAGORN Aragorn takes the 'Paths of the Dead' at daybreak;
he reaches Erech at midnight.
FRODO Frodo leaves Henneth Annûn.
9 GONDOR Gandalf reaches Minas Tirith. Faramir leaves Henneth
Annûn.
ARAGORN Aragorn sets out from Erech and comes to Calembel.
FRODO At dusk Frodo reaches the Morgul-road.
ROHAN Théoden comes to Dunharrow. Darkness begins to flow
out of Mordor.
10 ROHAN The Dawnless Day. The Muster of Rohan: the Rohirrim
ride from Harrowdale.
GONDOR Faramir rescued by Gandalf outside the gates of the
City. An army from the Morannon takes Cair Andros
and passes into Anórien.
ARAGORN Aragorn crosses Ringló.
FRODO Frodo passes the Cross-roads, and sees the Morgul
host set forth.
11 FRODO Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly
repents.
GONDOR Denethor sends Faramir to Osgiliath.
ARAGORN Aragorn reaches Linhir and crosses into Lebennin.
ROHAN Eastern Rohan is invaded from the north. First
assault on Lórien.
12 FRODO Gollum leads Frodo into Shelob's lair.
GONDOR Faramir retreats to the Causeway Forts.
ROHAN Théoden camps under Minrimmon. The Ents defeat the
invaders of Rohan.
ARAGORN Aragorn drives the enemy towards Pelargir.
13 FRODO Frodo captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol.
GONDOR The Pelennor is over-run. Faramir is wounded.
ARAGORN Aragorn reaches Pelargir and captures the fleet.
ROHAN Théoden in Drúadan Forest.
14 FRODO Samwise finds Frodo in the Tower.
GONDOR Minas Tirith is besieged.
ROHAN The Rohirrim led by the Wild Men come to the Grey
Wood.
15 GONDOR In the early hours the Witch-king breaks the Gates
of the City. Denethor burns himself on a pyre. The
horns of the Rohirrim are heard at cockcrow. Battle
of the Pelennor. Théoden is slain. Aragorn raises
the standard of Arwen.
FRODO Frodo and Samwise escape and begin their journey
north along the Morgai.
MIRKWOOD Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; Thranduil repels
the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assault on Lórien.
16 GONDOR Debate of the commanders.
FRODO Frodo from the Morgai looks out over the camp to
Mount Doom.
17 DALE Battle of Dale. King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot
fall. Many Dwarves and Men take refuge in Erebor and
are besieged.
MORDOR Shagrat brings Frodo's cloak, mail-shirt, and sword
to Barad-dûr.
18 GONDOR The Host of the West marches from Minas Tirith.
FRODO Frodo comes in sight of the Isenmouthe; he is over
taken by Orcs on the road from Durthang to Udûn.
19 GONDOR The Host comes to Morgul-vale.
FRODO Frodo and Samwise escape and begin their journey
along the road to the Barad-dûr.
22 FRODO The dreadful nightfall. Frodo and Samwise leave the
road and turn south to Mount Doom.
LORIEN Third assault on Lórien.
23 GONDOR The Host passes out of Ithilien. Aragorn dismisses
the faint-hearted.
FRODO Frodo and Samwise cast away their arms and gear.
24 FRODO Frodo and Samwise make their last journey to the
feet of Mount Doom.
GONDOR The Host camps in the Desolation of the Morannon.
25 GONDOR The Host is surrounded on the Slag-hills.
FRODO Frodo and Samwise reach the Sammath Naur. Gollum
seizes the Ring and falls in the Cracks of Doom.
MORDOR Downfall of Barad-dûr and passing of Sauron.
(This post was edited by Padster on Apr 25 2008, 1:38pm)
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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand
Apr 28 2008, 4:48pm
Post #7 of 8
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Hey good to see you Padster!!! I think that Rohan's men would get crushed at Helm's Deep, but that the Rohirrim scattered about Rohan would escape, and ride to Gondor to help crush Saruman, who doesn't have the means to conquer Minas Tirith, whose people are much more prepared and better at fighting within walls than the Rohan people are. But here are some other facts:
1. Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Eowyn, and King Theoden would be dead.
2. Gandalf would be at Minas Tirith.
3. Eomer would be at Minas Tirith.
4. The Witch King wouldn't be killed then.
After the battle at Minas Tirith against Saruman, Mordor would move on Minas Tirith from both Mordor and Rohan, effectively squeezing the remaining Men of the West in a crushing gauntlet, and wiping out the Free Peoples of Middle Earth before long. Gandalf couldn't survive long against all the Nazgul by himself, and as Minas Tirith had already been fighting Saruman's army, they'd be worn out, beat down, and the Rohirrim wouldn't do anything but delay the inevitable. Also there'd be no Dead People to defeat Mordor. Many thanks to Saruman for attacking Helm's Deep.
Mmmmmm....somethin' smells good!!!!! Could it be cookies baked in a tree?
Keebler's Website
Those were good cookies.....TIME TO HUNT SOME ORC!!!!!!!!!
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