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Henoluin Elsilim
Ossiriand
Oct 6 2008, 9:45pm
Post #1 of 13
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Glaurung vs. Smaug
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Two dragons, both from two different ages, both killed by mortal men. But what would happen if Smaug and Glaurung both decided they wanted the same pile of lovely golden shiny things? Who would win? The dragon of the first age, slain by the Blacksword, or the dragon of the third, slain by a black arrow? (sheesh, I think dragons should just avoid all things black!) :D
~ Henoluin ~
(This post was edited by Henoluin Elsilim on Oct 6 2008, 9:46pm)
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Oct 6 2008, 11:42pm
Post #2 of 13
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What a choice, the first of the dragons of ME or the last dragon.
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Well Glaurung was almost killed by a dwarf, so how strong can he be. Then again, he sacked Nargothrond, and enslaved or slayed its people. Smaug just terrified and ate, the citizens of Dale. I think Glaurung being full of guile and his gift of gab and cunning could talk Smaug into killing himself.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Oct 7 2008, 7:09am
Post #4 of 13
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Sauron's capability to fly over him would end up in a "I completely pwnzors you" situation.
Same issue with Balrogs. Wingless Balrogs would be utterly defeated by Balrogs with wings.
*quickly shuts the can of worms*
My LJ
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Oct 7 2008, 8:22pm
Post #5 of 13
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Air power wins this round of the Dragon Wars.
Also note that Smaug was done in by an arrow fired by Bard at a distance. Turin had to set a trap for Glaurung and get up close and personal to take him down.
We're discussing the BBC Lord of the Rings Radio Play on the Movie Discussion - LOTR board.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Jazmine
Dor-Lomin
Oct 7 2008, 9:16pm
Post #6 of 13
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If wings weren't an issue, I'd give it to Glaurung. But the ability of flight gives the win to Smaug.
*Jazminatar the Brown*
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Oct 8 2008, 4:08am
Post #7 of 13
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Flight Wouldn't Matter In This Case
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Why would flight matter? Smaug's breath weapon would likely have no effect on Glaurung and if Smaug flew close enough to attack with his other weapons, Glaurung could grab hold of him and end it.
Glaurung was the father of Dragons while Smaug was one of many winged drakes. A powerful one no doubt, but not Glaurung.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Oct 10 2008, 2:56am
Post #8 of 13
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At the Wings vs No Wings debate that is renowned among Tolkien fans :)
My LJ
My art site
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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SmeagoloftheStoors
Menegroth
Oct 10 2008, 4:15am
Post #9 of 13
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that the added agility of wings may actually help in the way of increasing the number of attacks and angles capable. It could also increase speed in the rushing attacks.
I don't know why she loves me, but she says she does.
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Oct 15 2008, 3:28pm
Post #10 of 13
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Smaug is too canny to fight Glaurung on the ground
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He'll go for attacks where his flying ability gives him a big advantage. Smaug can dive upon Glaurung's back at speed, do fly-by raking attacks on his head and wings, and attack him in his blind spots and other angles where he can't easily retaliate. Smaug can also easily fly out of Glaurung's reach.
We're discussing the BBC Lord of the Rings Radio Play on the Movie Discussion - LOTR board.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Oct 17 2008, 3:33pm
Post #11 of 13
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...he'd probably have something to say on this.
Flight would give an advantage to Smaug, but how much? If we compare this to the animal world, it's like a Panther vs. an Eagle. Both are quick in their element and both have powerful bites and sharp claws/talons. Assuming that they know they are fighting each other(no sneak attacks), there is very limited advantage due to flight.
A creature attacking from flight cannot due so at full speed. An Eagle slows down at the last moment to grab it's prey. And it's prey is usually much smaller than itself. Much like Smaug when he's fighting humanoid sized creatures.
So back to the animal comparison, the Panther would have his opportunity when the Eagle slows to make his attack. He could leap and grab hold and bring the Eagle down to his element. Once this happens, the Eagle would be in trouble coz he wouldn't be able to regain flight until he could dislodge himself. And that is assuming that there was no damage done to the wings.
The same scenario could/would play out between these two dragons. Glaurung was exceptionally smart and cunning. Even though their breath weapons shouldn't have any effect on either of them, a well timed blast might knock Smaug from the air or keep him from getting too close on an aerial attack.
I think it's a mistake to assume that Smaug would be able to flank Glaurung or somehow get behind him. Glaurung is not some slow moving ground lizard and if Smaug made the mistake of landing on Glaurung's back, he could be rolled over upon at great peril to his wings.
Remember, Glaurung was the Father of Dragons and was a terror in the First Age, when all the powers were not yet diminished. He no doubt was imbued directly with some of Morgoth's essence during his creation.
Smaug, while powerful in the context of the Third age, was hatched from an egg and was just another of the Host in the First age. One who was lucky enough to escape the Wrath of the Valar.
I get a kick out of the constant belief on these boards that the most powerful of the Third Age are equal to the powers from the First Age. No comparison.
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Oct 17 2008, 4:36pm
Post #12 of 13
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If you think about what a Dragon is suited for, it will help my point(s) even more. Morgoth didn't come up with Dragons by chance. He engineered them for the specific task of killing elves and to some degree, humans. In addition to killing them, they were to strike fear with their size and might. For these tasks, they were a perfect fit. They were not created to fight with other creatures of their own size. There were no creatures of size on the good side to worry about.
They were much larger, had tough skin that could repel most humanoid attacks, had claws and teeth that were of a scale to be catastrophic to a smaller creature, could breathe fire, and had the advantage of size and momentum when using their tail. The flying drakes also had the height and maneuverability advantage.
Flying dragons were not created to battle against other large creatures and this can be seen in their anatomy. A flying dragon would by necessity be quite light for its bulk and have an enormous wing-span. The wings alone would make it think twice about grappling with another creature of great size, especially if that creature were on the ground. Even if it could fold its wings back, the crushing weight of another large creature could be a real problem. Remember, wings must be light, so the ribs that support them would not be strong relative to it's size. Yes, they could take a lot of stress from flight and taking off, but several tons of Glaurung?
In addition, the flying dragons would most likely not have a very large head as this would make flight more difficult and would not be needed. Flying dragons would most likely pick up their prey and pull them apart. The bite wouldn't even be needed in most cases and would expose the dragon to some risk to its eyes and throat. A killing bite could be used though, if needed.
A land based dragon could, and probably would, have a larger head to the scale of its body. It would most likely be more heavily armored and would weigh more, not needing hollow bones, etc. It could absorb a lot more physical punishment. Kinda like a fighter plane and a tank.
A land based dragon most likely could have taken on another creature of great size, such as an Ent. I don't believe however that this is what Morgoth had in mind because the Ents were rarely involved in the wars. I can only think of once where they are mentioned and obviously they would be vulnerable to the breath weapon anyway.
In the animal kingdom, all flying predators attack and kill prey that is much smaller than they are. This is because of the same anatomical reasons that I pointed out above. Smaug would also need to adhere to these laws of physics.
Glaurung would win.
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