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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: The Arena:
Gandalf the White vs. King Elessar
 

Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Feb 27 2008, 4:47pm

Post #1 of 15 (6199 views)
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Gandalf the White vs. King Elessar Can't Post

Well, Gandalf would never fight Aragorn, but still, if he did, I don't think it would be an easy battle.


Padster
Nevrast

Feb 28 2008, 1:47pm

Post #2 of 15 (1949 views)
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Elessar... [In reply to] Can't Post

...would get butchered.

Cheers


Padster


Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Feb 28 2008, 4:23pm

Post #3 of 15 (1941 views)
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Unless he had the Army of the Dead [In reply to] Can't Post

One on one he would


Dreamdeer
Doriath


Feb 28 2008, 4:49pm

Post #4 of 15 (1950 views)
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Aragorn or Elessar? [In reply to] Can't Post

If Aragorn had seized the ring (a distant possibility with prolonged exposure, had he accompanied Frodo to Mordor) then Gandalf would have had no choice but to battle him, before he blew the whole show trying to fight Sauron. But then, whether defeated by Gandalf or Sauron, he would never have become King Elessar. Still, a ring-wielding Aragorn...what might come of that?

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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Feb 28 2008, 9:08pm

Post #5 of 15 (1978 views)
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Death to All [In reply to] Can't Post

A ring wielding Aragorn with Elven power at his disposal? He'd be the match for Gandalf by far, unless Gandalf was allowed to fight him with the full power of the Valar. I would hope Aragorn would never want the Ring, because he'd be the Ultimate Black Numenorean. SCARY!!!!!!


Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin


Feb 29 2008, 3:57pm

Post #6 of 15 (1963 views)
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Well ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn's strength of character is such that he's able to resist the Ring, even though it's undoubtably as alluring to him as it was to Boromir. And he removes himself from the temptation to grab it by deciding to go after Merry and Pippin instead of Frodo and Sam.

But if he had taken the ring, Aragorn would have become a new and improved Dark Lord who would likely have been powerful enough to defeat even Gandalf the White. He'd have combined the power of Sauron with his own indomitable will and ability to command others. (I'm talking book Aragorn here; movie Aragorn strikes me as too angsty to effectively use the Ring.)

Galadriel, too, would have been unstoppable if she had taken the Ring from Frodo.

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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Feb 29 2008, 4:52pm

Post #7 of 15 (1931 views)
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Duh [In reply to] Can't Post

Both the movie Aragorn and book Aragorn would beat Gandalf the White.


Padster
Nevrast

Mar 1 2008, 7:52pm

Post #8 of 15 (1956 views)
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Mmmm, arrange these words to make a familiar sentence... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink "in You world are dream a living" Wink
...
...
Smile "You are living in a dream world!" Smile

Aragorn could not have defeated Gandalf the White, even if Aragorn wielded the One Ring. Taking the One Ring for oneself is a whole world away from MASTERING it. Aragorn’s power, even if he had the power to master the One Ring, was nowhere near Gandalf the White’s, who as Gandalf the Grey killed a Balrog, and as Gandalf the White had been sent back to Middle-earth greatly enhanced by Eru.

All the Great Rings of Power enhanced their wearers/bearers in a general way, as well as granting specific powers. However, they only enhanced what was already there. The One Ring, for example, DIDN’T suddenly give the bearer the power of Sauron. I would guess (and I am very sure there is a quote to support this – I just can’t find it at the moment) that it would represent a % increase of their innate power. Even if that meant a 50% increase, I don’t for one minute believe Gandalf the White was less than 50% GREATER than Aragorn. I would expect him to be much, much greater. Talking %’s however is a touch abstract.

There is plenty in published writings to support this, I think:

131 To Milton Waldman
“...The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them...”

Also, as can be seen from the below test from another of Tolkien’s letters...

246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
“...In his [Sauron’s] actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it [The One Ring] from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn......Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him......it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power...”

...few could hope to with-hold the One Ring From Sauron in the first place, and ONLY Gandalf the White using the One Ring would have any hope of mastering Sauron (obviously without the One Ring).

All I am trying to do is give some indication of how far above the rest (i.e.: Galadriel, Elrond, etc) Gandalf the White was, and he was simply light years ahead of Aragorn, for the likes of Galadriel and Elrond were MUCH greater beings than Aragorn too. I’m not trying to knock Aragorn, he was the greatest mortal of his time, but he was no Noldor, like Galadriel, and no enhanced Istari, like Gandalf the White.

And Sauron was likewise way ahead of even Gandalf the White.

Additionally Gandalf makes it clear in LOTR that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli simply couldn’t have harmed him:

Chapter 5 - The White Rider
“...Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me...”

Was Gandalf talking about actually being impervious to weapons? Even the likes of Anduril? I don’t think so, for that would have made him physically harder than Sauron was when Sauron fought Elendil (with Narsil, Anduril pre the weapon-break) and Gil-galad (with Aiglos), and they must have been able to harm him with their weapons in order to overthrow him and destroy his physical form. In which case Gandalf must have been talking about the fact that he was SO much more powerful than the three of them, that his power could turn aside them and their weapons and blast them before they could get close enough to harm him. Which seems far more feasible to me than Gandalf the White simply being immune to harm from weapons as powerful as Anduril, which not even Balrogs or Sauron could claim.

Anyway, the long and short of it is, whilst the One Ring enhanced your innate powers to the point of ‘magic’, I don’t think there is any way on Middle-earth that Aragorn, even armed with the One Ring, could take out Gandalf the White. And this is the book Aragorn I am talking about, who is as far ahead of the movie Aragorn, as the movie Aragorn is ahead of an ant.

Cheers



Padster


The Letters of JRR Tolkien
246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
...Frodo in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it......When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him......how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).



(This post was edited by Padster on Mar 1 2008, 7:54pm)


Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Mar 2 2008, 10:41pm

Post #9 of 15 (1916 views)
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OK OK OK I GET IT [In reply to] Can't Post

I was only entertaining the idea of Dark Lord Aragorn


nudge
Nevrast


Mar 7 2008, 12:37pm

Post #10 of 15 (1935 views)
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Referencing [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that much referencing really necessary!

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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Mar 9 2008, 1:02am

Post #11 of 15 (2025 views)
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I dunno [In reply to] Can't Post

Its Padster's thing to reference. Then some of us

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People can understand. Like me.


Arwen's daughter
Gondolin


Mar 10 2008, 7:25pm

Post #12 of 15 (1931 views)
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Absolutely! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's an old Arena tradition that a few posters will always post insanely long and well thought out replies. Personally, I love it and every time one of them leaves the boards I feel like it's a completely different place around here.

Sorry, I know you probably didn't mean anything in particular, Nudge. But I wanted Padster to know that this lurker appreciates the fact that he's keeping the tradition of Way Too Much Info alive and well. Cool


In Reply To
Was that much referencing really necessary!



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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand

Mar 11 2008, 5:38pm

Post #13 of 15 (1885 views)
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Absolutely Right [In reply to] Can't Post

Yah, keep it up Padster!


coltzen
Nevrast

Oct 24 2008, 3:54am

Post #14 of 15 (4921 views)
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gandalf for sure [In reply to] Can't Post

that's assuming aragon doesn't have the ring, as he wouldn't have become king elessar if he's taken it. How can a human possibly compete with a wizard?


AncalagontheBlack
Nargothrond

Jun 29 2013, 3:50pm

Post #15 of 15 (1387 views)
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gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 
 
 

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