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Yva
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 6:03pm
Post #1 of 47
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Tolkien scholars
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Hi everyone, have there already been reviews or opinions on RoP expressed by Tolkien scholars? I'm not looking for drama, I'm just curious. I used to have some scholars' blogs and other resources bookmarked and lost everything when I replaced my computer. I haven't yet contributed to the discussion here but for the record, I've been enjoying the show very much, to the great surprise of myself. I feel like the showrunners managed to bring Tolkien to the 21st century, and I'm not just referring to the cast diversity.
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MerlinEngine
Nevrast
Oct 25 2022, 7:06pm
Post #2 of 47
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I haven't managed to dig deep yet, but I have read a tad of what Michael Martinez has written on his blog. And, if I'm not mistaken, a certain key figure in recent Tolkien publications posted a couple of thoughts (invaluable!) on this very forum. I can't speak for them, it's best you find what they have to say yourself.
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Yva
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 8:43pm
Post #3 of 47
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If you mean the faithful member of the forum, I'm aware and thankful. If you mean someone else, I'll have to look more carefully 
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Narvi
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 8:54pm
Post #4 of 47
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He doesn't pop up too often in the TV discussion, but he's not entirely absent.
If you count Corey Olsen, he has a whole YouTube series of reaction videos and several interviews with members of the production (e.g. John Howe). It's called Rings and Realms.
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2022, 10:07pm
Post #5 of 47
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...has been entertainingly grumpy (not a criticism coming from me!) about the show on her blog, especially when it crossed over into her other academic specialty, astronomy.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Oct 25 2022, 10:15pm
Post #6 of 47
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David Bratman, co-editor of Tolkien Studies and one of the most vociferous critics of Peter Jackson's films, posted a review of sorts after watching the first episode, that was typically cutting.
the ringzzzz ... oh, sorry, I fell asleep
John Rateliff, author of The History of The Hobbit, and one of the few major Tolkien scholars to consistently praise Jackson's films, has posted a series of very brief "Laconic reviews" of each episode, that seem to indicate that he is less than impressed with the show, though it really is too limited to get a strong sense of his opinions.
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 1
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 2
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 3
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 4
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 5
Less Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER Episode 5
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 6
A More Laconic Review of Rings of Power episode 6
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 7
Laconic Review of RINGS OF POWER episode 8
As others have hinted at Carl Hostetter, the acclaimed Tolkien linguist and editor of The Nature of Middle-earth and co-editor of Tolkien's Lengendarium (among other things) has posted some thoughts about the show here. As has, for what it's worth, the author of Arda Reconstructed.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Oct 25 2022, 10:15pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Oct 25 2022, 10:55pm
Post #7 of 47
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Entertainingly grumpy is a good description.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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TFP
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 11:03pm
Post #8 of 47
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yeah, I've dipped in and out of his podcasts on this, they've been good in parts.
he (rather tediously) seems determined to avoid passing anything approaching an overall judgement until he's seen the whole thing, and tries to stay analytical and objective throughout, but did (to me) sound uncharacteristically annoyed by the Saurbrand reveal and e.g. about how Sauron would ever have come to be on that raft and have his 'chance meeting' with Galadriel.
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2022, 12:22am
Post #9 of 47
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...how Sauron would ever have come to be on that raft and have his 'chance meeting' with Galadriel.
The answer that it was not by chance but by design and foresight is the simplest answer that does not rely of random events and coincidence.
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TFP
Menegroth
Oct 26 2022, 9:42am
Post #11 of 47
(1939 views)
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...how Sauron would ever have come to be on that raft and have his 'chance meeting' with Galadriel. The answer that it was not by chance but by design and foresight is the simplest answer that does not rely of random events and coincidence.
I didn't listen carefully but I suppose a criticism might be that in Tolkien's legendarium, this kind of "design" is above the paygrade of anyone short of Eru, and a chance meeting between Galadriel [and through her Celebrimbor etc] and a currently-dormant Sauron isn't really an obvious thing to want to set up for the good of Middle Earth.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Oct 26 2022, 4:12pm
Post #12 of 47
(1900 views)
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... looking at the legendarium from different perspectives.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Yva
Menegroth
Oct 26 2022, 4:57pm
Post #13 of 47
(1885 views)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 26 2022, 5:41pm
Post #14 of 47
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A noble endeavor, if I do say so myself! //
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 26 2022, 5:47pm
Post #15 of 47
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I didn't listen carefully but I suppose a criticism might be that in Tolkien's legendarium, this kind of "design" is above the paygrade of anyone short of Eru, and a chance meeting between Galadriel [and through her Celebrimbor etc] and a currently-dormant Sauron isn't really an obvious thing to want to set up for the good of Middle Earth.
I don't disagree with you per se, but I'm unconvinced Eru is really all that interested in the good of Middle-earth as it would be defined in most models of human morality. The Ainulindalë is clear that, far from the existence of evil being an unfortunate but necessary side effect of free will (as it's considered to be in much Primary World monotheistic philosophy), Eru actively wanted evil to exist. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." I have no difficulty imagining ROP's Eru wanting Sauron to take up the vacated title of Dark Lord because having an antagonist to the grand cosmic drama was "necessary" to realize the wonderful things He had in mind for the future of the universe.
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2022, 6:53pm
Post #16 of 47
(1866 views)
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I didn't listen carefully but I suppose a criticism might be that in Tolkien's legendarium, this kind of "design" is above the paygrade of anyone short of Eru, and a chance meeting between Galadriel [and through her Celebrimbor etc] and a currently-dormant Sauron isn't really an obvious thing to want to set up for the good of Middle Earth. I don't disagree with you per se, but I'm unconvinced Eru is really all that interested in the good of Middle-earth as it would be defined in most models of human morality. The Ainulindalë is clear that, far from the existence of evil being an unfortunate but necessary side effect of free will (as it's considered to be in much Primary World monotheistic philosophy), Eru actively wanted evil to exist. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." I have no difficulty imagining ROP's Eru wanting Sauron to take up the vacated title of Dark Lord because having an antagonist to the grand cosmic drama was "necessary" to realize the wonderful things He had in mind for the future of the universe.
Let's not forgot I wrote of the real world where even Eru lives in fear of, and is under the complete control of, the writers. A reply based on the fiction is a non sequitur to my post on the reality. Poisonous fruits, of a sort. ;)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 26 2022, 7:00pm
Post #17 of 47
(1859 views)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Oct 27 2022, 3:24am
Post #18 of 47
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Thank you and to others the links
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What surprised me is I agreed with all the callouts. For me, the two issues that go off in my head when I am watching, because of the way I cognate, are accents and choice of words.
On the question of the Cosmological Myth.
If we set aside real-world round-world, tipped slightly the first thing that occurs to me is I cannot recall anywhere in the show or the producers confirming that because Numenor is out and about their secondary world is a flat earth. Did the early maps indicate that or is this, rather like some of the other philosophical elements, left alone partly because it intrudes on the Silmarillion?
If it has been left unsaid, then the vast majority of the audience and the players in the ensemble will not make that distinction. Indeed it is a myth contained deep within Tolkien's writings and one late in life he questioned for being absurd.
Valinor is 'hidden' as far back as the first age and yet is still accessible to the ring bearers after the world made round. The Hiding of Valinor, which is witnessed in Galadriel's abortive journey, is not dependent on the catastrophe of Numenor so to the general audience there is no storytelling value in going from flat to round. Access is denied flat or round and access is the key storytelling point. The punishment for breaking the rules may be the destruction of Numenor, not Aman the Blessed going awol in the skies. It strikes me that if you are going to tell that part of the story, a flood is a more 'natural" way to do so.
I also noticed that the vision of the apocryphal wave comes over Numenor. Numenor does not fall sideways into the abyss. The way it's shot is Numenor is stationary and this huge wave overcomes it.
Turning to ROP. Sadoc indicates that the Hermits Hat has not been seen for many centuries (since the First Age). That may indicate that it is seen everywhere.
I am inclined to think at a creative level the fact the Hermits Hat can be seen in Rhun is simply based on Aragorn's words to the council where no distinction is made between Rhun and Harad on the notion of strange stars. People may be correct, though the way we see stars does depend on how far or close the equator we are, my personal perspective and how it affects my relationship with the show is it's overthinking. Others are perfectly entitled to think it's crucial.
For me, it's a neat mystery and part of the Stranger's journey to be enjoyed and is echoed by Aragorn's words. I would however like Daniel Wizard to puts some clothes on in Season 2. 
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 27 2022, 3:31am)
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swordwhale
Dor-Lomin
Oct 31 2022, 2:27am
Post #19 of 47
(1706 views)
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the best thing I have read today...
Dear (insert name of wizard here), please find some clothes...
Goals: crazy dragon lady, mermaid (for the rest, just see my profile)
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying... (JRR Tolkien, Legolas Song of the Sea)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Nov 2 2022, 5:17pm
Post #21 of 47
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In Tolkien’s novel, the Balrog of Moria awakens because the dwarves “delved too greedily and too deep” in their pursuit of mithril. The show reverses this: the Balrog is awakened because the rigid old king refuses to allow his son to engage in the risky mining project. Restraint, not hubris, is the trigger; it is the forbidding father (not the transgressing son) who awakens the nemesis.
Setting aside the purported signs of Satanic influence in the show, I appreciated this observation. I hadn't thought of it that way, probably because I still don't think it was intentional on McPayne's part, but y'know ... it's the plain meaning of what they showed us onscreen. :P And if they really couldn't resist having their identical-to-PJ Balrog roar scene in the first season, I feel no need to twist myself into mental pretzels searching for counterintuitively charitable explanations.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 2 2022, 6:11pm
Post #22 of 47
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How is Henry the Balrog awakened by Durin III's refusal to mine mithril?
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Since I only watched each episode once, perhaps I missed something, but I did not have that sense. Can someone explain why you believe this is what was shown?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2022, 6:31pm
Post #23 of 47
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...I feel no need to twist myself into mental pretzels searching for counterintuitively charitable explanations.
Heh, another quotable.
For the first time that I can recall of any science fiction or fantasy in my experience, the long wait, even if forever, for the sequel or next season is more than welcome. I've always been of the mind, why not try to give things chance. The world is better with a few hours of something, anything, interesting than a world without it. I never understood people who didn't want something to exist. Everything has a right to exist. I never once thought it could be otherwise, until now.
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2022, 8:09pm
Post #24 of 47
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I wonder what your take is on this:
For his part, Sauron seems to be driven to evil almost reluctantly—and, as several commenters have pointed out, it is largely Galadriel that does the driving. (Like Aragorn the reluctant King).
And Sauron becoming sympathetic, humanized.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 2 2022, 8:27pm
Post #25 of 47
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For all the flaws and stumbles, I am quite impressed and pleased that the showrunners have chosen to engage with the idea of Sauron's seeming repentance and, that as Tolkien puts it "Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power."
I would certainly not have approached these concepts -- and certainly Galadriel's engagement with him -- the way that they have, and as I have indicated before, my personal jury is still very much out, but I am certainly convinced that they are coming from a place a deep knowledge and love of Tolkien's work and are engaging with it on a deeper level than I expected from Amazon.
And that, for me, is an encouraging thought.
Obviously, I know your take is different, but it pleases me that you are interested in my point of view!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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