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Junesong
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 1:33pm
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Do we think there's going to be any time jumps between seasons? If so, how much time? What about mid-season time jumps ala HOtD?
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 24 2022, 1:54pm
Post #2 of 25
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I think there will definitely be some time jumps. How many and how much depends on how much the show will compress the remaining time for the Second Age. On the outside, there is as much as about 200 years from the events of Season One to the end of the War of the Last Alliance. As it stands, I'm not sure about how much time passes within Season One (excluding the flashbacks to the First Age). One such jump that I will predict will be between the Drowning of Numenor and the beginning of the War of the Last Alliance. However, some time will need to be spent in establishing the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor; that by itself might take up an entire season.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 2:02pm
Post #3 of 25
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Building the Middle Earth we recognize
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What do you think of the theory that the establishment/construction of Gondor will be moved up on the timeline to before the fall of Numenor?
I forget who posited that theory on here but it made sense to me. It means there is a Gondor for the faithful to retreat too during the sinking of Numenor and it also works better with the condensed timeline.
We know Eärien has been set up to be an architect and we also know that fans are waiting for some key Middle Earth architecture to be established. I'm really curious to see how and when this all shakes out.
I'm pretty confident we'll get the building of all the major landmarks during the five seasons - including Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, Orthanc, the Argonath, the King at the Crossroads, Amon Sul, and the Gates of Moria. How we'll see this I'm not sure - but it's looking more and more like the show wants to leave us in the final minutes of the last episode with more or less the Middle Earth we are presented with in Fellowship.
This means, I'd also expect the founding/establishment of The Shire will also happen before the end.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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TFP
Menegroth
Oct 24 2022, 2:11pm
Post #4 of 25
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Yeah, there'll need to be some element of this..
Obviously the 'epic' nature of the storyline together with the relatively slow pace of filming/the ages of the cast, does impose constraints.
Even accepting that the book timeline has been drastically concertinaed they can't film this as something that, in-universe, takes place over a couple of years in the way that, say, Breaking Bad's five seasons did.
e.g.
(1) realistically, places like the Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith would take decades, more likely centuries, to build... in this show all that stuff is going to have to happen within the lifetime of Elendil and Isuldir [longer Numenorean lifespans haven't been discussed yet but must surely be introduced at some point], the 'low' human characters, especially Bronwyn, will surely not live to see their completion?
(2) the full militarisation of Numenor also feels something that would take years, probably at least a decade, to achieve .
(3) assuming the show takes a real-world decade to wrap up from start to finish, the actors for the Elven characters will noticeably age over the course of filming - 'Galadriel' and Arondir will slide into middle age, 'Elrond' get close to it, and 'Gil-Galad' progress well into it*. The real-world age gap between these actors and, say, 'Isuldir' will obviously not change.
* - spoiler alert - Celebrimbor dies.
(This post was edited by TFP on Oct 24 2022, 2:13pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 24 2022, 2:48pm
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The construction of Barad-dur was begun in S.A. 1000 and was completed in the year 1600.
The founding of Pelargir dates back to 2350. It was here that Elendil landed after the downfall of Numenor.
Canonically, Ar-Pharazon came into power in the year 3255. The fleet that captured Sauron was launched six years later in 3261 with Sauron's surrender taking place the following year. The Great Armanent, assembled to assail Valinor was begun in 3310 and launched in 3319, resulting in the destruction of Numenor and the Change of the World.
The realms of Arnor and Gondor were established in 3320; Minas Ithil was built in that same year (though probably took longer to complete). Osgiliath was presumably also founded at that time. More than a century later, in 3429, Sauron attacked Gondor, capturing Minas Ithil and destroying the White Tree. The Last Alliance of Men and Elves was formed in 3430. Victory against Sauron was achieved in 3441, ending the Second Age.
It's a sure bet that Barad-dur will be constructed in months (if not weeks) in the show, not over 600 years. There's no real reason to move up the founding of Gondor and Arnor. It doesn't take long to establish them after the drowning of Numenor in any case. The return of Sauron and the beginning of the Last Alliance might be moved up.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 24 2022, 2:59pm)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2022, 3:41pm
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The showrunners have been very upfront in their comments about not wanting time skips. While much of what they've said could be interpreted as only being opposed to decades-long time skips (or longer), I think the timeframe over which S1 unfolded indicates they are looking at telling the show in a much more conventional way. "Conventional" in terms of the norms of modern cable drama, I mean. Maybe not quite as condensed as Game of Thrones's one year per season, but then again, I'm saying that more out of hope as a book fan than based on evidence from the show itself (estel, not amdir, to put it in Tolkienian terms  ).
(This post was edited by Eldy on Oct 24 2022, 3:53pm)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2022, 3:48pm
Post #7 of 25
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As it stands, I'm not sure about how much time passes within Season One (excluding the flashbacks to the First Age).
I expect the show to always be at least a little vague about the passage of time, which is normal in most stories (Tolkien's day-by-day chronology in the Appendices is an extreme outlier), but I'm pretty sure S1 unfolded over a few months at most. Before the battle of Ostirith / the village near Ostirith, Waldreg said the Stranger's comet had landed "a few weeks back now". Adar's assault came very shortly after that, and was immediately followed by the eruption of Orodruin, in which Halbrand was severely injured (probably by his own hand). He and Galadriel then rode to Eregion in six days, according to Galadriel in Episode 8. The forging of the Rings was implied by Elrond to have taken no more than a few weeks. Recall, also, that the Khazad-dûm storyline was unfolding under the shadow of a deadline of less than a year before the Elves had to leave, but that deadline had been severely accelerated by the eruption of Orodruin (lol).
I'm not saying this makes sense, but I think the show was pretty straightforward in its presentation. I really hope future seasons are not quite as short, but honestly ROP hasn't given me much reason for optimism on that front.
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Victariongreyjoy
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 3:48pm
Post #8 of 25
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I think at best they could have a 60 years timeline with all 5 seasons. At worst, everything is happening withing a decade or two.
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2022, 3:53pm
Post #9 of 25
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realistically
...I'm not sure realism is going to enter into it. 
in this show all that stuff is going to have to happen within the lifetime of Elendil and Isuldir [longer Numenorean lifespans haven't been discussed yet but must surely be introduced at some point], the 'low' human characters, especially Bronwyn, will surely not live to see their completion?
McPayne have been pretty clear that they don't want the mortal cast to have to be replaced due to attrition through old age. Even if they acknowledge longer Númenórean lifespans—which I'm not convinced they will, since they've so far depicted Númenóreans as pretty much indistinguishable from "low men," though OTOH their long life was mentioned in the PJ films, which appear to be McPayne's lodestone—I don't see Bronwyn or Theo dying from natural causes. If they go, it'll be from something dramatic and probably violent.
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Victariongreyjoy
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 4:14pm
Post #10 of 25
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Only royal line have long lifespan
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Remember the tapestry of Elros and Elrond? Maybe the show won't confirm or deny their long life-span, but they did alluded to that noble line of Numenoreans can live long with the tapestry.
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TFP
Menegroth
Oct 24 2022, 4:15pm
Post #11 of 25
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Possible content of the seasons?
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I think at best they could have a 60 years timeline with all 5 seasons. At worst, everything is happening withing a decade or two.
Yeah, assuming that five is indeed the final number of seasons then I think there are some fairly obvious choices of focus for the final three :
Season 3 could end with Sauron defeated and taken captive to Numenor;
Season 4 could end with the fall of Numenor;
Season 5 surely must end with the Last Alliance etc.
It's harder to say how far Season 2 might get. Assuming that Sauron goes back to Eregion, etc etc, it might plausibly end with him putting on the one ring, or maybe killing Celebrimbor. Either way (and something other than these two is probably likelier IMO) it could plausibly [assuming away travel time, as seems to be the show's modus operandi] only span say a couple of years. The building of B-D and Numenorean militarisation etc could begin whilst all this was happening.
Season 3, well, I don't know... a few years? Gondor could be part built over this timeframe?
It feels to me that Season 4 doesn't have to take the *very* longest time since there's no real building or travelling involved, though you'd tend to think the Numenoreans would initially be at least mildly distrustful of Sauron. I suppose Gondor might be 'finished' over this period? Again a few years?
It feels like Season 5 has to span quite a long time? Sauron [and his ring!] have to spirit their way all the way from Numenor to Mordor, get a new body, reveal himself to the Numenoreans, they have to attack him, etc.
But, really, all bets are probably off at this stage. My best guess is probably an average of *about* 5 years in world per season???
(This post was edited by TFP on Oct 24 2022, 4:21pm)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2022, 4:18pm
Post #12 of 25
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I don't think the tapestry implied much, though, if you don't already know about Númenórean lifespans.
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Victariongreyjoy
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 4:27pm
Post #13 of 25
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Probably a nod for fans of the lore
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To be honest, the general audience don't know much who the Numenoreans are except for what they got from PJ movies. The extended scene of Aragorn telling Eowyn his real age might be the link the showrunners will use for the show that only the royal line can live long. Even that scene haven't been watched by many of the general public.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Oct 24 2022, 4:30pm)
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Victariongreyjoy
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2022, 4:29pm
Post #14 of 25
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How many years isn't important for me.
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What important is the main events will be depicted in the show. War of Eregion, Sauron captured, Numenor sinking, Gondor and Arnor established, and the War of the Last Alliance. The whole show can take just a year for that matter as long as I get to see all those events taking place.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 24 2022, 4:33pm
Post #15 of 25
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Another thing to consider is the issue of the Nazgul. It took over 400 years for Sauron to distribute the Nine Rings among mortal Men and for those Men to first appear as the Nazgul (from S.A. 1800 to around 2250). And that was 100 years after the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. The show is going to have to significantly accelerate these events (assuming we haven't already seen three of the Ringwraiths already). They don't have several centuries to spend on transforming the mortal Ring-bearers into Wraiths.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Oct 25 2022, 3:50am
Post #16 of 25
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Three anchors have been weighed in the first season as regards the Numenor narrative.
1) Miriel (and her late father) and now very significantly Earien have seen the visions of the downfall.
2) Miriel and Elendil, both established as alone, have formed a very powerful bond but the former is now vulnerable but committed to supporting Galadriel.
3) For some reason Earien has been set up as an architect and Kamen is her relationship interest.
Already we are aware of Ar Pharazons ambitions and Bronwyn and Arondir have gone to Pelagir whereas Pharazon may book lore build Umbar.
It would be very easy to write a quick synopsis of the narrative and tension and drama that can emerge from all of that but the key is that Elendil will be urged to prepare for the future, rather like Turgon in the first age, and his daughter would be able to plan and design Minus Anor and Minus Ithil for her two brothers. This does not strike me as dot joining or fan fiction but using the history in a dynamic way to create tension and intrigue.
O-S is the expert on time frames but given Elendil is already a man of some years the threading back of the narrative so the history more easily and smoothly emerges will contribute as much as quite modest jumps.
One point where I can see a time jump is when Sauron arrives captive in Numenor. If we move forward say twenty, thirty years, age Ar Pharazon. It contributes to the narrative whilst Imladris perhaps Lorien and the foundations of Anor and Ithil are laid and begun in anticipation of the coming catastrophe.
Earien seeing Minus Anor and Ithil in her dreams or the Palantir would again echo the founding of Gondolin.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2022, 12:09pm
Post #17 of 25
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My guess is that we will get the war of Eregion in Season 2 - and the season will end with Numenor returning in strength to defeat Sauron and bring him to Numenor.
Season 3 is the establishing of Gondor by the faithful and the corruption of Numenor - maybe the finale is Isildur rescuing the seedling from Sauron's human sacrificing clutches as the great Armada begins taking shape.
Season 4 is the downfall of Numenor/Sauron returns to Mordor
Season 5 Last Alliance and beyond
I'm hoping for a Chris Nolan style epilogue montage where a bunch of little things are set up right at the end. Leaving us with a desire to immediately watch Jackson's six films.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Victariongreyjoy
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2022, 12:19pm
Post #18 of 25
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I agree with your points. Hope so too with a epilogue that connect the future events of Jackson films. Similar to the end of BOTFA.
When I read what Payne and Mckay said about compressing the timeline, the time jumps will be minimal. It would be within the average human lifespan, which is 70 years. So I believe the show starts 3371 and by the time we reach 3441, some of the mortal cast will be gone or of old age. I can see the surviving mortals be de-aged in the final episode of the show.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 25 2022, 1:34pm
Post #19 of 25
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I do not see any good reason to move up the founding of Gondor and/or Arnor. What does it accomplish? The timeline is pretty straightforward: Numenor falls and the surviving Faithful establish the new realms of Arnor and Gondor. We have the greatest tragedy of the Second Age ending either Season Three or Season Four, followed by a glimmer of hope as the season's epilogue. Only a short time jump is arguably needed at the beginning of the next season to start with a newly completed Osgiliath and Minas Ithil (with the additional location of Annúminas in Arnor).
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2022, 2:46pm
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the show ends with enough incentive to remake the Jackson films for six seasons of television that it's practically a call to action by the producers.
Would love to see LOTR adapted in an episodic, serialized television format.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Oct 25 2022, 2:57pm
Post #21 of 25
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The producers have confirmed that two of the main events are blended and are told in the two-parter they have referred to. In other words the sack of Eregion and the humbling of Sauron.
Oddly, or maybe not, I cannot see five seasons but then whilst the Numenor storyline is at the top of the hierarchy I have no idea what is happening to either the Stranger or Southlands remnant storyline. So the catastrophe of Numenor might be the end of season 4.
What had not occurred to me is if we are going to see the death of Isildur we are going to move into the third age.
As Galadriel begins the story so she may well end it. Reminiscing with Elrond knowing that evil is still abroad. There may be a lot of drama around Isildur's decision not to destroy the ring. The producers have compared him to the tragedy of Michael Corleone.
It's purely personal but to back into the general geo-political landscape is fine with me but I have no intention of connecting this series with the Hobbit Movies. First, though I have to make the journey of the next eight years!
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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TFP
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 3:42pm
Post #22 of 25
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The producers have confirmed that two of the main events are blended and are told in the two-parter they have referred to. In other words the sack of Eregion and the humbling of Sauron...
did they say this?
well it is kind of repetitive to twice have a partly/fully 'Numenorian' army march up to the gates of Mordor [and beyond] and beat Sauron/force him into surrender.
it might, as you say, be a lot neater for Sauron to be captured at the end of a battle in Eregion. the Numenorian's perfect timing [per the Southlands tavern skirmish in season 1] could desert them just long enough for Celebrimbor to be killed etc but they could arrive in time to encircle Sauron's forces and take him prisoner.
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Narvi
Menegroth
Oct 25 2022, 9:06pm
Post #23 of 25
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I doubt we'll see mid-season jumps
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I assume we'll get a generational jump between seasons 3, 4, and 5. Perhaps 4 will have a more extensive timespan in order to illustrate Sauron's gradual corruption of the Numenoreans. Colonization needs the get back up and running and Sauron needs to exert his influence. Isildur needs to mature into a man worthy of the crown. Ar-Pharazon needs to age to a significant degree for his paranoia over impending death to be convincing. We can afford to lose some Low Man characters (like Bronwyn) along the way, or at least witness them age significantly. Theo, for instance, could be depicted as a mature adult by Season 4, and an old man by Season 5. If he's destined for one of the Nine (which I doubt, having witnessed his redemption), we could even see him wither away into the wraith-world. Waldreg, who is already quite old, would be an excellent opportunity to depict this process.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Oct 26 2022, 3:44am
Post #24 of 25
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What they indicated is that two main events occur but are fused together and it's a two-part episode.
That makes perfect sense to me. We see Sauron succeed in Eregion and then the Numenorians, late to the rescue, find, to their amazement, that Sauron humbles himself. All seems to be lost when the Numenorian arrives.
There is no indication in the text, they can use, where this happened and there are no words that tell us what happened to A-P's army when it arrived. I had always imagined that Sauron comes forth in his still noble and fair form and flatters A-P. (That was before The Akallabeth was published).
So that two-parter includes the death of Celebrimbor and presumably, the withdrawal of Elrond (and Galadriel), and the reaction to that is the arrival of Numenor on the shores of middle earth at which point Sauron seemingly humbles himself. They may use the Balrog to distract the Dwarves. That is a pure guess but otherwise why shift the Balrog into the second age?
I find it quite instructive after all these years to go back to the appendices, which they have the rights to, and the Akallabeth and "Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age." which are part of the Silmarillion and remind myself that the former on the matter of the second age are mere notes whereas the latter is a cohesive summarising narrative.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 26 2022, 3:57am)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Oct 26 2022, 3:55am
Post #25 of 25
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Interesting thoughts on Waldreg. Because he is portrayed as a grumpy old git from the North of England I have not given him much credit in the narrative but of course, he is Adar's fixer.
Theo has redeemed himself against Adar but it will be interesting to see how he will react (and Waldreg) when they are confronted with the real deal. The mark of Sauron seems to place them inside his world.
On a separate topic, I have said I cannot see them giving nine concurrent arcs to men. it occurs to me that with the three pale blues (who would be an analog for Khamul) and these two we may have seen five already. Daniel Wizard bid the blues "to return to the shadow from whence they came" and the central one's image grew a crown in her unseen version.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 26 2022, 3:58am)
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