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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 19 2022, 5:21am
Post #1 of 17
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Lots of discussion on the boards lately. I haven’t had time to read through everything. I’ve seen a few scattered posts about who and what people expect or want to see in season two. I think I’m most interested to follow our traveling Stranger / Istar and Harfoots as they drive the show into Rhûn.
Here are my thoughts on what I’d like to see or think is likely there:
I’m hopeful that we’ll see the Blue Wizards. We may have met one already. I’m not convinced by the wide speculation that the Stranger is Gandalf. Being shown with halflings and saying “follow your nose” is certainly reminiscent but it’s not enough. Maybe all the Istari received the same vague advice before heading over to Middle-earth. The Stranger could just as easily be Saruman (who was said to have ventured East, unlike Gandalf) or Radagast. But McKay and Payne have stated they’re not incorporating Third Age stories into the show, and that the Tolkien Estate is prioritizing the sequence of major Second Age events over the compressed timeline. Given those things, I don’t see how the Stranger can be any of the trio of wizards who arrived around T.A. 1000. Furthermore, and pure speculation on my part, given the rights that have been granted for the show thus far (that we know of) and my absolute certainty that Amazon would’ve put wizards on screen one way or another, I think it’s unlikely the Estate would refuse the appearance of the Blue Wizards knowing Amazon would then be compelled to either: (1) shoehorn Gandalf against the Estate’s wishes, or (2) invent Pink and Gold Wizards to circumvent the rights altogether.
The Mystics are part of a Rhûnian magic cult apparently seeking and preparing for Sauron’s return. What kind of following do the cultists have? Will we meet the cult leader(s), or its founder(s)? Initially, Tolkien wrote that the Blue Wizards may have deviated from their missions and started magic cults in the East and South. With the Stranger just now arriving, he can’t be a founder, but he could encounter the other Blue already established in such a role. However, it would be very odd to go that route and ignore Tolkien’s later writings that recast the Blue Wizards as decisive in hindering Sauron in the East and South and aiding his defeat in the main wars of the Second Age. In which case the Stranger, along with any other characters headed to or soon-to-be introduced in Rhûn, may link up with efforts to suppress the Mystics and their machinations to prime the Easterlings to join with Sauron.
I’m hopeful at the introduction of Khamûl, the Shadow of the East, before becoming a Ringwraith. There’s lots of room to invent a backstory for this character. Is he (or she?) a sorcerer leading the Mystics? Or a pupil being taught / groomed by them? According to Unfinished Tales, one of the Nazgûl was a king among the Easterlings, though left unexplained if that title was acquired before or after possession of one of the Nine Rings. I think it could make for interesting storytelling to see Khamûl earn Sauron’s approval by commanding the cultists and resisting the Blue Wizards. Perhaps with enhanced power, Khamûl will muster an army from among the various men of the East (forerunners to the Wainriders in the Third Age?) to participate in one of the show’s predestined climatic battles.
I do think we’ll eventually meet the Dwarf clans in the East. Surely John Howe didn’t expand the Second Age map of Middle-earth just because he could, but rather because he was commissioned to do so to fit with future proposed story lines as far as the Red Mountains (Orocarni). Maybe Sauron will pit the Men and Dwarves of Rhûn against each other as part of his ploy to tempt them with his Rings. I can imagine the Dwarf-lords accepting Sauron’s gifts to compete with Khamûl’s swift rise to power. I guess I could settle for a ring-gifting montage, but I’d be much happier seeing the four hitherto unseen Houses of the Dwarves and their architecture and culture.
Did I forget any big potential or foreseeable stories or characters in Rhûn? What do you expect or hope to see there?
Long live the Pink and Gold Wizards!!
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mcnpauls
Lindon
Oct 19 2022, 10:57am
Post #3 of 17
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Fabulous post. Amazon should buy your ideas from you.
I have to say, though, that the casual viewer, like my wife, for instance, absolutely wants the Stranger to be Gandalf, and I feel Amazon have to give them what they want, especially as future seasons will be increasingly darker and villain heavy.
It would be a terrible mistake to make him Saruman. He does not seem anything like him and audiences will not want to have a hero they know will turn evil.
I would be happier with him being a blue wizard, or even Radagast, but I fear the awful depiction of the latter in the Hobbit films means they would have avoided him.
I think they could get around canonical contradiction perhaps
by resorting to the idea that Tolkien's writings about the Istari said something like, chief of those who came to the West of Middle Earth were five, ISTR.
This gives the chance to say there were other Istari missions East, or never recorded by the Red Book. It could be Olorin/Gandalf will die on this mission, too, which might even explain why he is afraid of Sauron prior to have a Third Age mission.
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Archestratie
Nargothrond
Oct 19 2022, 12:32pm
Post #4 of 17
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I have to say, though, that the casual viewer, like my wife, for instance, absolutely wants the Stranger to be Gandalf, and I feel Amazon have to give them what they want, especially as future seasons will be increasingly darker and villain heavy.
All my co-workers want him to be Gandalf. I don't. I was hoping for Sauron or Tom Bombadil. But yeah, I agree with you. The casual fans are very eager to see Gandalf in the show.
I guess once you've read so much of the lore and internalized the story arcs as Tolkien presented them, it's hard to envision how non-reading Lord of the Rings fans look at the subject matter. For me, Gandalf makes the least sense since he was hesitant about coming to ME in the first place, and never wanted to be first among the Istari.
It also makes Bilbo seem more like a tool for Gandalf rather than a genuine friendship, as if Gandalf just finds the most apt halfling-style person at the time to fit his current problem.
My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf
The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.
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Hopefull Harfoot
Ossiriand
Oct 19 2022, 6:49pm
Post #5 of 17
(963 views)
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This scene, though I enjoyed it greatly, left me with more questions then answers. It's established that the Dweller is not Sauron, but who is she or was she? Was she destroyed here? Is that a crown? Did The Stranger mini-nuke them and burn their flesh off or did it blow away their forms and reveal what they looked like on the Other Side (Unseen)? Why is the Nomad's face more intact then the others? Did her helm shield her? Did the Dweller turn into a Moth? I am fairly sure the big one pictured was a Emperor Moth.
"The Emperor moth is a widespread, but never very common, moth of heathland, moorland, woodland rides, sand dunes and grassland scrub. A very large moth, the female can have a wingspan of up to 10cm"
And then all three seem to disolve into a flurry of smaller moths. Are all three still alive? Is the Dweller Maiar? A Blue Wizard? A king? Will we see them again?
I like the idea about Khamul.
I imagine Rhun to be either mostly desert or steppe as the map is barren except around Lake Rhun. It fits with my image of Tolkien's Easterlings being primarily horsemen. (But as we know more clearly now via recent archeology steppe warriors were often women. The latest estimate I've seen says about 30-40% of graves with warrior goods are female, giving basis of truth to the legends of Scythian Amazons.)
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 19 2022, 7:22pm
Post #6 of 17
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I imagine Rhun to be either mostly desert or steppe as the map is barren except around Lake Rhun. It fits with my image of Tolkien's Easterlings being primarily horsemen. (But as we know more clearly now via recent archeology steppe warriors were often women. The latest estimate I've seen says about 30-40% of graves with warrior goods are female, giving basis of truth to the legends of Scythian Amazons.)
Rhûn seems likely to be home for a wide variety of environments. What we can see seems to be mostly plains, rivers and mountains. Far beyond the Sea of Rhûn should be Bilbo's Last Desert and probably rain forests, swamps and of course the eastern sea(s).
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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sharku
Menegroth
Oct 20 2022, 5:25am
Post #7 of 17
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This scene, though I enjoyed it greatly, left me with more questions then answers.
As good Tolkien should! Think Bombadil, the Ent Wives etc. etc.
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Hopefull Harfoot
Ossiriand
Oct 20 2022, 5:41am
Post #8 of 17
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Ah yes, Bombadil and Goldberry have long perplexed me.
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Tolkien in one of his published letter's says he purposely made then enigmatic... but then goes on to say he left enough clues that he thought people could work it out. Argh! So there is an answer! And 50 years on it still eludes me.
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 20 2022, 1:32pm
Post #9 of 17
(863 views)
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Fabulous post. Amazon should buy your ideas from you.
Where do I sign?
or even Radagast, but I fear the awful depiction of the latter in the Hobbit films means they would have avoided him.
I didn't mind PJ's Radagast as much as most, hygiene not withstanding. I appreciated that he was portrayed very differently than his wizard counterparts. His aloofness and lack of self-awareness was a credible explanation for his absence from important matters in which the other Istari were involved. For Amazon, a much younger Radagast could provide a lot of story-making fodder as a wizard who has not yet discovered his full power and whose journey leads to confrontations with evil / corrupted Men who inspire his gradual retreat into nature and eventual disappearance from the stories. I don't think any of that is likely, though.
It could be Olorin/Gandalf will die on this mission, too
I hadn't considered that possibility. It's unclear how Maia memory works between incarnations. Just as Gandalf the White struggled to recall his prior name in The Two Towers, the Stranger’s amnesia could be a hint that he won’t retain everything upon his return in the Third Age - maybe just enough for an inexplicable fondness for Halflings. I find this a sufficiently convincing in-universe explanation if indeed the Stranger is revealed to be an earlier incarnation of Olórin, or Curumo or Aiwendil for that matter.
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 20 2022, 2:49pm
Post #10 of 17
(843 views)
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This scene, though I enjoyed it greatly, left me with more questions then answers. It's established that the Dweller is not Sauron, but who is she or was she? Was she destroyed here? Is that a crown? Did The Stranger mini-nuke them and burn their flesh off or did it blow away their forms and reveal what they looked like on the Other Side (Unseen)? Why is the Nomad's face more intact then the others? Did her helm shield her?
I think this was a brief glimpse of the Mystic’s wraith-forms. Their depiction was too similar to PJ’s Nazgûl in the wraith-world, and therefore a strong indication that the Mystics are involved in magic of the Unseen and further connections them to Sauron. Did he teach them this magic, or did they discover it on their own as they sought to find him? The variation in their wraith-forms and/or level of decomposition could be explained by varying amounts of time experimenting, the proficiency of the magician, or the maturity of the magic itself. If they’re not dead, any number of them could be candidates for future Ringwraiths. Sooner rather than later, by the looks of the Dweller and the Ascetic.
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 20 2022, 2:52pm
Post #11 of 17
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Did the Dweller turn into a Moth? I am fairly sure the big one pictured was a Emperor Moth. And then all three seem to disolve into a flurry of smaller moths. Are all three still alive? Is the Dweller Maiar? A Blue Wizard? A king? Will we see them again?
The moths are an intriguing addition. I immediately thought about the moth-messengers from both film trilogies. Maybe this will turn into an invented backstory for them. From a film-only perspective, it’s not completely crazy to want more information about those Eagle-summoning moths. I do think it would be an odd choice since there are so many other interesting and important canon characters and creatures to explore and flesh out. But, I’m sure people who only know the films have wondered about them. Maybe the Mystics become trapped in those forms or as a collective of moths, or they possess the ability to transfigure willingly (thus explaining how they might have evaded destruction in the season one finale), and choose to serve the forces of good as part of their redemption (or just serve Gandalf, if the Stranger turns out to be him) - and a convenient metaphor as light-seeking creatures of the night.
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(This post was edited by Marmoon on Oct 20 2022, 3:05pm)
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Narvi
Menegroth
Oct 20 2022, 2:52pm
Post #12 of 17
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I'm sure the showrunner will maximize the opportunity to extrapolate certain aspects of Rhun from Tolkien's tantalizing descriptions. As other have posted, the map reveals only a limited amount about the geography of the country. However, even here there is a decidedly diverse geography evident: mountains (including the remains of the Red Mountains of the continent's prehistory), vast steppes inhabited by the forerunners of the Wainriders, broad river-valleys inhabited by the prosperous communities of Dorwinion, and in the far north the Iron Hills, perhaps inhabited by another tribe of dwarves at this time (although I think in Khazad-dum we have enough dwarven characters for the show!verse. There are also doubtless communities of Avari who remained in the east heedless of the summons of the Valar. The Mystics surely arose from cults that had amassed sufficient power to control elements of the local population. Their origin does not seem such a mystery...I'm almost certain that we will see at least one of the Blues at their core, and perhaps Olorin and Nori will team up with the other in overcoming the latter.
Speaking of the mystics...I think we have already found our Khamul in the person of the Dweller. In fact, I suspect that the Mystics may all wind up as Nazgul, giving us 3 of the future Nine. Although Khamul's gender is (I believe) revealed in the Appendices, I doubt the showrunners will find this an obstacle. The Stranger uncovers their true forms, which are an obvious callback to the depiction of the Nazgul in Jackson's films. Olorin simply obliterated their physical forms. If the Mystics, through the tutelage of the Blue(s), had unlocked the secrets of the "Unseen World" that Sauron so doggedly pursued, this opens up the possibility that he will eventually achieve contact with them (via Mordor's convenient proximity to Rhun) and secure this secret, which he will use to craft at least the Nine. The Seven may simply be versions of the Three that allow the dwarves to maintain their hoards as the Elves do their fading refugia of the First Age. However, unlike the Three, Sauron will succeed in seizing the Seven when he betrays the Gwaith-i-Mirdain.
The Rhun plotline and the role of Olorin&Nori needs to be connected to the primary plot. Likewise, we ought to learn the identities of at least some of the Nine, even if they do not become primary characters. Rhun appears to be an ideal location for this to transpire. Perhaps we'll be treated to a similar plotline in Harad in S3.
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Narvi
Menegroth
Oct 20 2022, 2:53pm
Post #13 of 17
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You beat me to the punch with this one (see my post below). The brief wraith-reveal is a clear foreshadowing of the future Nazgul.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 20 2022, 8:33pm
Post #14 of 17
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The Iron Hills and Other Mountains
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Technically, the Iron Hills are north of Rhovanion, not Rhûn in the sense that we usually use the name. There's no indication that any Dwarves dwelt in the Iron Hills before a group of the Longbeards settled there, but who knows? Lkewise, we don't know if Dwarves ever inhabited the mountains abutting the Sea of Rhûn or the White Mountains (small settlements of Durin's Folk later, following the War of the Dwarves and Orcs?)
We do know that four houses of the Dwarves originally awakened in the Orocarni (Red Mountains; Mountains of the East) but we do not know if they have all remained there. With changes in geography wrought by the War of Wrath, might some have relocated to other regions, traveling either West or South? It would be a bit of a shame if there are no Dwarves in the mountains of Harad. And perhaps new mountain ranges have formed in the south of Rhûn. The somewhat imminent Change of the World should bring even more alterations of the landscape.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 20 2022, 8:36pm)
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 20 2022, 9:54pm
Post #15 of 17
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I think in Khazad-dum we have enough dwarven characters for the show!verse.
While Khazad-dûm may have denizens aplenty, we’re currently only following three dwarves (Durin IV, Disa, and Durin III), compared to dozens of named Men and Elves. There needn’t be huge sets and extended story arcs concerning the Eastern Dwarves. But I think we need some emotional attachment to the other six Houses if the distribution of the Seven is to have any weight. I’m sure there’s a way to proceed without overwhelming the audience or the show’s budget.
Send Durin IV to a conclave in the Iron Hills to meet with representatives from the eastern clans; send Elrond to meet with the western clans in the Blue Mountains. Later on, maybe the ring-bearing Dwarf-lords will briefly reappear to feign subjugation to Sauron, as a plot to deceive the deceiver (and raise the stakes and build tension in the show), with the revelation of their resistance to this control and their true allegiance delayed until it could hurt him the most, such as a battle.
The Mystics surely arose from cults that had amassed sufficient power to control elements of the local population. Their origin does not seem such a mystery...I'm almost certain that we will see at least one of the Blues at their core
While I think showing an evil / corrupted / misguided Blue Wizard is a possibility, I wonder that it could spoil the shock of Saruman's treachery in the Third Age. Still, it could be very entertaining if the show goes this route. One of my early projections for the show (some years ago now, incredibly) was that Khamûl could be an apprentice to a Blue Wizard in the East. The wizard's character alignment (good/evil) could even be left ambiguous, so long as the Khamûl comes away from the training as a villainous sorcerer and an ideal candidate for one of the Nine Rings.
Perhaps we'll be treated to a similar plotline in Harad in S3.
I’m looking forward to seeing Harad. I have several thoughts on it, depending on the how the Blue Wizards are handled. Maybe I’ll start a new thread later when I have more time.
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Oct 20 2022, 9:58pm
Post #16 of 17
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Iron Hills and Southern Dwarves
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The Longbeards settled in the Iron Hills during the First Age. It’s possible multiple clans built cities there, similar to the Firebeards and Broadbeams in the Blue Mountains. But Durin’s Folk are the only ones we know about in the Hills.
Technically, the Iron Hills are north of Rhovanion, not Rhûn in the sense that we usually use the name.
I would argue, based on its position north-northeast of the Sea of Rhûn, that the Iron Hills extend between northeast Rhovanion and northwest Rhûn.
To your point about the Eastern Dwarves relocating from the Orcarni: I think this is very likely considering what we know about their western kin who moved around, had multiple cities and colonies, and traveled long distances for work and trade. And I especially like the idea of Dwarves in Harad. How might Southern Dwarves have adapted to the more arid climate? How might the climate and resources have informed their clothing and weapons? Were they more likely than other dwarves to produce their own food, or did they also make deals with farmers and fishers along the coast?
The somewhat imminent Change of the World should bring even more alterations of the landscape.
I suspect the Change, and consequently the Flat World, is being ignored for the show. Not only for simplicity, but to avoid the many physics and astronomical questions (gravity, weather, tides, movements of the sun and moon) that arise from having a disc-world, and to follow Tolkien’s own attempt to rewrite the mythology with a Round World. Unlike Christopher Tolkien’s dilemma when preparing to publish The Silmarillion, Amazon can conveniently sidestep the entire issue by isolating the drowning of Númenor, with no larger repercussions to Arda.
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(This post was edited by Marmoon on Oct 20 2022, 10:01pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 21 2022, 3:59am
Post #17 of 17
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I imagine that the Change of the World happens even without a Flat Arda, it just takes a somewhat different form. It still results in the Fall of Númenor and the loss of the Straight Road to Aman, so I'd guess that we still see old lands being vastly altered and new lands rising. And we must posit some similar catastrophic event, probably at the end of the Fourth Age, to mark the transition from Arda to the world as we know it.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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