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Marmoon
Nevrast
Mar 6 2019, 4:11pm
Post #1 of 21
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There has been speculation here on the forums about the likelihood and merits of character diversity in the new Amazon series, often in response to the lack of / inclusion of female and non-white actors in Jackson’s film adaptations. One of those conversations was spurred by a Den of Geek article that expressed concerns over "perpetual whiteness of the Fantasy genre on screen” and a chance to show the Haradrim and Easterlings “in a sympathetic light” or a broader substitution of “genders and skin colour” among characters (http://bit.ly/2VEZ5pM).
A push for diversity is really not a surprising development given modern sensibilities, even from a fantasy universe that was purposefully but respectfully male- and Euro-centric (being originally founded on the professor’s intended mythology for England and borrowing from various European and Nordic histories). Minimal female characters, even leads, would be extremely odd if indeed the show revolves around largely invented concepts and plots (as seems virtually certain). We can probably also assume there will be minimal distressed damsels or a general portrayal of token women in subservient or inferior roles to men. At this time, we still do not have definite details from Amazon, but their expanded and currently thrice-updated map of Middle-earth suggests we will see parts of the world not previously shown in the films. We are expecting to see more of the western coasts and southern and eastern lands. All of these areas lend support to more diverse peoples: perhaps Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and African skin-tones among travelers in the coastal port cities or in Harad or Khand; and more Eastern European and Asian skin-tones in Rhûn.
Without jumping to conclusions about the setting for this show (Second/Third Age?) and how strictly it will conform to canon / source material, I think there is a lot of potential to satisfy both modern sensibilities and Tolkien’s vision for Middle-earth. The way I see it, we can have more diverse characters and stories while still doing justice to Tolkien’s secondary world and without being insincere or forced. For example, in Jackson’s The Desolation of Smaug, I think the decision to include more diversity in Lake-town was a good one. First, consider that Tolkien was never very clear about the genders or skin-tones of the Men of the Lake, so diversity was open to interpretation. Second, that town of free people would have been a likely destination for good Easterlings displaced by the Men of Darkness spreading in the East - of course this was not addressed in the film but it is a plausible way to explain the presence of non-white actors and it fits with the reality of Sauron’s occupations and influences in the Easterlings' homelands; the fact that some Easterlings considered their circumstances improved by relocating so near to a dragon is itself an interesting plot idea.
How, and where, would you like to see Amazon handle diversity in Middle-earth?
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2019, 4:24pm
Post #2 of 21
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However they feel necessary, and wherever
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I actually have a bunch of characters from the Lord of the Rings who I just always imagine are of different ethnicities: Gandalf, Saruman, and the entire royal family of Dol Amroth, for starters. I would love to see storylines in the East and South of Middle-earth. I also imagine that the Blue Wizards, if they show up, would be people of color.
"We are Kree"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 6 2019, 4:25pm
Post #3 of 21
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Yes, I would like to see diversity where culturally and geographically appropriate. Tolkien did write that Aragorn encountered people both good and evil during his travels in the East and South, so some more sympathetic portrayals of those folk works for me.
Esgaroth was founded by Men of the North, but the inclusion of immigrants, perhaps fleeing the yoke of the Enemy and his servants, works as well.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Mar 6 2019, 4:27pm
Post #4 of 21
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I would like to see more characters of color, yes
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Tolkien was quite clear that LOTR and most of the other Middle-earth stories have in-universe authors who hailed from particular cultures (Hobbits, Dúnedain, possibly Eldar), and those works reflect their authors' backgrounds and inevitable biases--as any work does. That works to the benefit of the legendarium by helping to give it a rich historical feel (and a mythological feel to the First Age stories), but it's a fairly subtle effect. Visual depictions of Middle-earth are inherently somewhat more "objective", though, in that the camera is ostensibly capturing what things "really" looked like rather than relying solely on descriptions written by characters within the Secondary World. I think it would be far more interesting for the Amazon series to lean into this and show Middle-earth from a greater variety of perspectives.
This is my general stance beyond just matters of race, culture, and gender, but I think it would be entirely consistent with Tolkien's aims to take those matters into consideration. For example, reading some of his posthumously published works which weren't ostensibly based on Dúnedain and other Elf-friend sources presents a very different view of the "Men of Darkness". See especially the cases of the men of Enedwaith in Appendix D to "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" (in Unfinished Tales) and the pre-Númenorean indigenous inhabitants of Gondor seen in "Tal-Elmar" (in The Peoples of Middle-earth). And while the Den of Geek writer might not have known this, portraying the Haradrim in a "sympathetic light" would have a stronger basis in Tolkien than a lot of things the series will probably do. From the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" (HoMe XII; my emphasis):
The Men of Darkness was a general term applied to all those who were hostile to the Kingdoms, and who were (or appeared in Gondor to be) moved by something more than human greed for conquest and plunder, a fanatical hatred of the High Men and their allies as enemies of their gods.
Amazon has a great opportunity to do something that many of Tolkien's imitators in the fantasy genre don't do--and, in the process, to hearken back to some of the things that make Tolkien such a distinctive author--and I sincerely hope they take it.
(This post was edited by Eldy on Mar 6 2019, 4:31pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2019, 4:54pm
Post #5 of 21
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And that would be something very interesting indeed, that Amazon could do.
"We are Kree"
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Welsh hero
Mithlond
Mar 6 2019, 5:47pm
Post #6 of 21
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It's a world with Dragons, magic rings and talking trees. So a diverse set of characters is fine by me
-Irfon
Twitter: @IrfonPennant
middle earth timeline FB: https://www.facebook.com/MiddleEarth1
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2019, 6:07pm
Post #7 of 21
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I once read a post somewhere on another forum arguing that hobbits can't be people of color because, to paraphrase, "they're based off English people". To which someone else wisely replied: "Most English people also aren't three feet tall, have furry feet and don't wear shoes."
And that, I think, sums it all up neatly.
"We are Kree"
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kzer_za
Menegroth
Mar 6 2019, 6:39pm
Post #8 of 21
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Whether "everyone is white" in Middle Earth is debatable to begin with
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Harfoot Hobbits are "brown-skinned." Some Gondorians are "swarthy", probably including Beregond. Even a whole branch of the Edain has fair to swarthy skin, as Tolkien describes the house of Beor in HoME XII. What exactly he meant by these may be open to debate - like "brown-skinned" could possibly mean a Greek - but there is certainly enough room for interpretation to add more diversity than is traditionally displayed.
Jackson missed an opportunity to be more diverse here, besides a few extras in Laketown, though I don't really blame PJ specifically since he's just following the great majority of Tolkien artists for decades. Cor Blok's highly stylized and ethnically ambiguous art is an interesting exception.
(This post was edited by kzer_za on Mar 6 2019, 6:44pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2019, 6:46pm
Post #9 of 21
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Those examples are all ones I've noted, and I'd be quite interested to see Amazon take some risks and expand on those.
"We are Kree"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 6 2019, 6:54pm
Post #10 of 21
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Debatable? Or just plain wrong?
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Whether "everyone is white" in Middle Earth is debatable to begin with
Is that debatable, though? I find that statement flat-out wrong. We know about the brown-skinned Haradrim and black men from Far Harad. The Easterlings seem to be a diverse collection of peoples, some descended from Men of the North and others from more varied ethnic backgrounds.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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kzer_za
Menegroth
Mar 6 2019, 6:56pm
Post #11 of 21
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I meant western Middle-earth mainly //
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 6 2019, 7:01pm
Post #12 of 21
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...however, that's not what you stated. I don't imagine brown-skinned Harfoot hobbits to much resemble Haradrim though. We also have the Fallohides described as more fair that either Harfoots or Stoors.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2019, 11:05pm
Post #13 of 21
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Is that debatable, though? Everything's debatable! It is Internet Law. In this case, lessee...
The inexact word "swarthy" is, as I recall, only once applied to a basically sympathetic people, namely those two hundred lined up behind Forlong to muster in at Minas Tirith. But it is used for the Dunlendings, for example, as well as more obviously the Haradrim. I've never been quite sure whether to read "Easterlings" as East Asians, Arabs or Slavs, but it could easily encompass all of those in different areas. Even the Druedain could presumably have children with "men" as we know them, if orcs and elves can. Oh yeah, half-orcs work too.
At any rate populations are around who aren't snow-white Nordic types. So you'll more than likely have some intermarriage and a certain number of travelers and sojourners about, if this really is meant to be like medieval Europe. As to that, Europe had something like a nearly one percent African population through the middle ages, I believe I've read. So all those films that show crowd scene after crowd scene with nothing but white faces--those are the ones being historically inaccurate.
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Mar 6 2019, 11:13pm
Post #14 of 21
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Perhaps just a side-note, but many of the men of Gondor who showed up for the defense of Minas Tirith were related to the Dunlendings by way of their partial descent from the "pre-Númenórean" indigenous inhabitants of Gondor. Both were related to the folk of Haleth and thus also the Númenóreans/Dúnedain. Though as noted, Amazon has brought latitude to interpret skin tone while remaining faithful to the text (though this is one of the areas where I'm not a stickler for strict faithfulness), but I hope they go for a more diverse range. Would be nice to see a show that bucks the trend both in (inaccurate, as you note) pop historiography of Europe and in much of the fantasy genre.
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TheHutt
Mithlond
Mar 7 2019, 12:17am
Post #15 of 21
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Interestingly, PJ never sent for the easy way of characterizing the Haradrim as black, or Easterlings as Asian. As they actually wanted to prevent any connotation to the existing cultures of our world. Which was good, IMHO.
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet - Custom Booklet Project
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 7 2019, 12:29am
Post #16 of 21
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Don't take my statement out of context, unc.
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Re-read the rest of my post. I was writing in favor of diversity in Middle-earth. I think we have essentially the same position.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 7 2019, 12:31am)
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Mar 7 2019, 1:07am
Post #17 of 21
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Interestingly, PJ never sent for the easy way of characterizing the Haradrim as black, or Easterlings as Asian. As they actually wanted to prevent any connotation to the existing cultures of our world. Which was good, IMHO.
Yes, it was a smart move to avoid typecasting non-whites as villains and portraying the triumphant, light-skinned forces of good. Too much negative symbolism to be inferred. But that decision had an unintended consequence: setting in motion the perception (by some critics) of “perpetual whiteness” and a lack of diversity in the genre. Hopefully, with Amazon’s presumed freedom at crafting new stories, they can overcome this obstacle and show a variety of ethnicities representing a spectrum of moralities and complex characters.
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balbo biggins
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2019, 2:00am
Post #18 of 21
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Diversity does not need to be forced on these stories, there is already scope for a wide range of peoples, out side of the largely western European aesthetic that is the core of tolkiens work
But of course, Greek, Italian, Middle East, North African can be included in these stories, Gondor, umbar, rhun, harad, khand. If they Get To these places all represent these sorts of faces.
But making numenoreans outright black or Asian? No, that's not diversifying or progress that's filling quotas, diverse filmmaking Need representation through there own stories, and you can argue the money spent on this series is missing an opportunity to do that, and I'd agree. 1 billion for a white male. Centric TV Show? Not exactly the way to modernise things.
But it is what it is, and I feel there's plenty of diverse opportunities in Middle earth In the right stories if. They choose to write them.
(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Mar 7 2019, 2:01am)
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Marmoon
Nevrast
Mar 7 2019, 2:35am
Post #19 of 21
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Another variable is whether Amazon decides to maintain partial continuity with Jackson’s adaptations - which, as discussed elsewhere, has pros and cons. If continuous, then there is a pretty strong precedent that most of the interior realms of Middle-earth are primarily populated by white or light-skinned folk. I realize that is not absolutely true, as there are many places/peoples we have not seen, and there is even more flexibility if the show is set in a time period other than the late Third Age (young Aragorn being the obvious example). And even then there are the aforementioned regions at the edges of or beyond the map that likely correspond to more darker-skinned peoples, as I think we have all noted at this point.
If Amazon forges its own path, then they are working from a clean slate and can portray the makeup of Middle-earth however they choose.
With any luck, we might actually see leads or supporting roles of color. This would both appease the diversity expectations and open new, enriching storylines. There are many ways to do this right.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2019, 3:07am
Post #20 of 21
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No loyalties at all here, really, just lobbing pies into the fray.
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balbo biggins
Nargothrond
Mar 8 2019, 2:11am
Post #21 of 21
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Reading up about Adûnaic used on numenor I read this,
Adunaic is fundamentally a three-vowel language, with a length distinction; the long eː and oː are derived from diphthongs aj and aw, as is the case in Hebrew and in most Arabic dialects, in line with the Semitic flavour that Tolkien intended for both Adûnaic and Khuzdul, which influenced it
I think a middle Eastern (more specifically the levant) would be quite a good vibe for. Numenor.
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