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sharku
Menegroth
Sep 7 2024, 1:02am
Post #1 of 14
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OK....we're now halfway through season 2 and there's been no sign, mention or sex scene between Elendil and anyone to suggest where Anarion is.
Let the speculation begin....just like "Where's Waldo?", "Where's Anarion?".
How do you think they will weave him into the story...or will they just not bother? Of course at this stage, given how long Numenoreans live, there's time for 2 adult brothers to come about, although in canon he was born only 10 years after Isildur, in 3219 SA.
So - is he a teenager not yet shown (a la Celeborn), or yet to be born, or erased entirely from the annals of Westernesse?
(This post was edited by sharku on Sep 7 2024, 1:04am)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Sep 7 2024, 1:34am
Post #2 of 14
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If the character was going to be in the story, surely he would have at least been named in passing during season one. "My youngest son? Still off studying with the Masters - should be back in a couple of years, if he keeps his marks up."
At this point, it'd be a bit odd for Elendil's family to suddenly grow by one.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Lissuin
Doriath
Sep 7 2024, 2:09am
Post #3 of 14
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Anarion is mentioned very briefly in S1.
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I don't remember which episode, but Elendil refers to him as being off somewhere distant. Anyone remember?
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 7 2024, 5:23am
Post #4 of 14
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the west side of Numenor, where the most of the Faithful lived, and i m pretty sure Anarion is there, and we will definitely see him in Season 3
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 7 2024, 7:52am
Post #5 of 14
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The Argonath in the movies are statues of Isildur and Elendil - No Anarion. So if this series is inspired by the movies, Elendil will probably take Anarion's role in establishing Gondor.
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sharku
Menegroth
Sep 7 2024, 10:45am
Post #6 of 14
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The Argonath in the movies are statues of Isildur and Elendil - No Anarion. So if this series is inspired by the movies, Elendil will probably take Anarion's role in establishing Gondor.
Are they? Reference? I know the one on the right has a beard and looks a little older, but that's no confirmation it's Elendil.
EDIT: Dang...various forum posts etc. say it's Elendil. Poor Anarion - erased!
(This post was edited by sharku on Sep 7 2024, 10:56am)
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 7 2024, 11:49am
Post #7 of 14
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I'm not sure where it's confirmed to be Elendil...
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It does mess with the visual metaphor a bit...
Anarion is placed just within the borders of Gondor and Isildur on the other side is actually closer to Rohan. So when Aragorn sees them he obviously looks at Isildur standing just outside of the border of Gondor and can relate, as he himself is lingering outside of the rule of Gondor.
The river becomes a metaphor for the rift dividing the bloodline between the two brothers, casting Isildur's heirs out of Gondor and allowing descendants of Anarion's house to claim stewardship.
This is one of my fun facts to whip out at parties - one must establish Tolkien dominance at such occasions - But even then I struggle to maintain an audience  it's almost like people don't want to know the history of Gondor!
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 7 2024, 1:06pm
Post #8 of 14
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As Lissuin says, there was a brief mention of him in Season 1. You can find it just after the 52 minute mark in Episode 3 ('Adar'), where Elendil, Isildur and Eärien are down at the pub discussing Isildur's up coming 'Trial of the Sea'. The convo is heavy with 'something unexpected/bad' happened, in the context of Anárion's 'Trial of the Sea'. On reflection, it seems odd that the younger brother took the Trial first but it wouldn't be the first time the showrunners' adaptive approach to the source material has caused me to wonder out loud!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 7 2024, 3:21pm
Post #9 of 14
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The Argonath in the movies are statues of Isildur and Elendil - No Anarion. So if this series is inspired by the movies, Elendil will probably take Anarion's role in establishing Gondor.
Well, Elendil was instrumental in the founding of both Arnor and Gondor, so making him part of the Argonath, replacing Anarion, does make sense on some level. However, it is worth noting that Elendil actually took up residence in Arnor where he ruled directly until his death in the War of the Last Alliance.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 7 2024, 3:22pm)
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 7 2024, 3:29pm
Post #10 of 14
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I thought he stayed in Osgiliath?
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That's interesting.. I always thought of it as: Elendil in Osgiliath, then Minas Anor and Minas Ithil on either side of the river for his sons.
Did Arnor also have city similar to Minas Tirith, then?
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Sep 7 2024, 3:29pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 7 2024, 4:01pm
Post #11 of 14
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That's interesting.. I always thought of it as: Elendil in Osgiliath, then Minas Anor and Minas Ithil on either side of the river for his sons.
Did Arnor also have city similar to Minas Tirith, then?
Elendil dwelt in Annúminas, the capital of Arnor, located on the shore of Nenuial (Lake Evendim), north of what would become the Shire. Remember that Minas Tirith (originally Minas Anor) only became the capital city of Gondor after the ruin of Osgiliath.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 7 2024, 8:21pm
Post #12 of 14
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I wasn't aware of the symbolism of the river and the positioning of the colossi. Are we talking about the Jackson films here or the text? Aragorn's reaction in the book is to proclaim both Isildur and Anárion his "sires of old" and that his "heart yearns for Minas Anor and the walls of my own city" ('The Great River', LotR). He doesn't seem to be drawing any distinction with regard to the Arnor / Gondor components of his heritage or favoring one ancestor over another. Is there a reference elsewhere?
one must establish Tolkien dominance at such occasions
Tolkien dominance! That sounds like a worryingly Morgothian party trick!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 7 2024, 10:00pm
Post #13 of 14
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It's never explicity said in the text..
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It could be my own interpretation, and unintended. But it is more apparent in Appendix A and Unfinished Tales (of Cirion and Eorl's Friendship) ..
I wouldn't say there was any favouring one brother over another - The two brothers shared equal rule and were both great men.
They built the statues on either side of the river, and Isildur and Anarion dwelt on each side; in Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. At this time both statues, and both cities, are in Gondor.
But after the Isildur's death at Gladden Fields, it was Anarion's line that took the rule of Gondor while Isildur's bloodline faded into obscurity with Valandil.
The Argonath remained within Gondor's borders until Cirion - the twelfth steward of Gondor gave the land [containing the Western Emyn Muil, the Anduin and the statue of Isildur] to Eorl. This land also contained Elendil's tomb, so his body had to be moved to Minas Tirith.
So essentially, only Anarion's statue remained in Gondor, which I think is an intentional choice from Tolkien: The river becomes a dividing line between the two brothers' bloodlines - where Aragorn's ancestors remain outside of the borders of Gondor and Boromir's claim to stewardship (from Anarion) remains inside the border.
It's also interesting that the Fellowship dock on the western side of Anduin (Isildur's side, outside of Gondor) Boromir dies before crossing the border and Aragorn fights off the Uruk at Amon Hen - symbolically reclaiming that lost land for his own. Although he can't officially claim that land, it is as if he were expanding the borders, recovering Isildur's right to stand within Gondor's realm again.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Sep 7 2024, 10:02pm)
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 8 2024, 1:26am
Post #14 of 14
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interesting! some further thoughts
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Good to come across another fan of Gondorian history and geography!
It's Rómendacil II who built the Argonath, in III.1248 rather than Isildur and Anarion during their joint reign - if that's what you meant. And I can't find a reference to which king rose from which bank of the river - Isildur on the west, Anarion on the east or vice versa. Is that stated anywhere? And the Anarioni had already taken up the kingship of Gondor by the time of the Gladden Fields, with Meneldil "committed to the rule of the South Kingdom" by Isildur before his fateful journey north ('The Council of Elrond', LotR; 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields', n.10, Unfinished Tales is also helpful here).
The redrawing and traducing of the borders of Gondor through the establishment of Rohan is an interesting one with regard to the Anduin and, by extension, the Argonath. In the 'Cirion & Eorl' chapter of Unfinished Tales the relevant border is stated as "the Anduin and the west-cliff of the Emyn Muil". Given that the Nen Hitheol is east of the west-cliff of the Emyn Muil, with the Argonath at its northern shore, that suggests that the Argonath are not within the borders of Rohan. Admittedly, that hangs on how you define 'west-cliff': as the westernmost cliffs of the Emyn Muil or all of the Emyn Muil west of the Anduin. For what it's worth, I'd argue this is satisfactorily clarified in 'The Riders of Rohan' chapter of LotR. It's not until Aragorn descend from the cliffs and ravines of the Emyn Muil that they regard themselves as within Rohan: "So ended the Emyn Muil, and the green plains of the Rohirrim stretched away before them to the edge of sight." I note too that the Emyn Muil is referred to as "the East Wall of Rohan", again suggesting that Rohan's eastern border terminated before the Argonath and the Nen Hithoel.
I hadn't considered before whether there was any significance as to where Boromir met his end and I like the symbolic value you invest in the geography. In the book, Aragorn doesn't do any fighting during the Orc attack, on Amon Hen or elsewhere - he chases after the sound of Orcs and then finds Boromir "A mile, maybe, from Parth Galen". Gimli and Legolas turn up shortly afterwards, having spent some time killing Orcs elsewhere. I do love how Jackson, Boyens and Walsh adapted the scene though, with Aragorn fighting Uruk-hai at Amon Hen. Anyway, to my mind, all of this is taking place within the historical borders of Gondor - albeit on a frontier that no one appears to be exercising much in the way of practical control at the time of the War of the Ring.
My own interpretation of the function of the Argonath and its symbolism is that the then regent of Gondor Rómendacil was making a statement about the new eastern frontier of the realm. He'd just crushed the Easterlings but still needed to establish a defensible eastern border that reflected the reality that Gondor lacked the men to enforce the old imperial limits that previously ran to the Sea of Rhûn, and the reality that the Northmen had already been granted much of this territory by Rómendacil's predecessors. Thus he fortified the west shore of the Anduin and symbolically reset the border: he "forbade any stranger to pass down the River beyond the Emyn Muil" ('Appendix A'). The Argonath were the monumental statement piece cementing the new realities, dictated by what was happening east of the Anduin long after the death of Isildur and Anarion and without specific reference to a divided royal bloodline. If anything, honouring both founders of Gondor strikes me as underscoring the co-kingship of ancient Gondor.
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