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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 4 2024, 11:52am
Post #1 of 13
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So, far Adar's story with the Orcs fascinate me in this new journey to Middle Earth.One title i could put for him is ADAR the Patriarch.
The series for the first time presents us with a perspective that no other effort in the past has dared to do. A perspective that takes us deep into the work of the Professor, posing ontological questions, which are not trivialized in Manichean facilities.
Through the complexity of the characters, as they are presented, the concepts of good and evil become more tools, than an identifying term that condenses the nuclear characteristics and with which we can draw hasty conclusions.
The monolithic depiction of the Elves as the bearers of good and the Orcs as evil is broken down through the symbolic presentation of the Father, ADAR.
ADAR is the transitional stage from Elf to Orc, the union of the light and dark natures that coexist within each entity, but in Andar's case they have merged into a new dimension, which he calls Uruk and we can place him as the Patriarch of Orcs, using a biblical term.
ADAR's face reflects the complexity of Orc nature. Once bright existences, now stigmatized and cursed lives. A dialectical situation that tries to externalize itself in order to release itself, because its very position does not allow it to coexist with anything else.In this state ADAR transcends and accepts his nature, not as a tool of Sauron, trapped in choices determined by the way others see them and as Sauron rightly mentioned of the abhorrence the Valar hold so much , as much as Elves and Humans to the existence of Orcs, but freed he becomes the spokesman for his people and the guide to freedom, without seeking acceptance or redemption.ADAR as the collective expression of the Orcs, brings his people out of the state of pain and misery and this transition is symbolized through the passage to Mordor, the land where the Orcs can live freely.Mordor is the model for the climate in which Orcs are now free to live, create and thrive.Orcs no longer belong to someone, Orcs now own and possess the means to live freely. This was the greatest gift that ADAR gave to his people. Not a temporary change, not a new dynast, but the means by which the Orcs can now be a free people in Middle-earth, with their own special and unique cultural elements.
To every Orc, ADAR is his Father, and to ADAR every Orc is his Child. The Father of a People who leads them to Freedom – the Father who loves his Children and does not hesitate to do anything for their good.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 4 2024, 5:44pm
Post #2 of 13
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How much will he influence Saurons arc.
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The implications of all your write are significant to Sauron's story.
We now know the orcs did not trust Sauron but Adar. Sauron makes himself right for Galadriel and now Celebrimbor; for what purpose to be a nihilistic dark lord?
Rejected by the orcs does wickedness see attraction in the beauty of the Elves, the ingenuity of the Dwarves and men.
Is their a point when he puts on the One that he believes he can bend the fair realms to his will, so they will worship him as he intended the Orcs of the beginning of the Second age?
In Numenor, if they stick to the story, he finally succeeds. He is worshipped by one of the fair races.
When Sauron can no longer attain a fair form is that when he realises his constituency is the Orcs and to rule them by fear is all he is left with.
Halbrand and Annatar are so convincing does he really simply want to replace Adar is that all he is attempting to do. Giving himself up and convincing Adar to let him go suggests he is merely toying with Mordor and its inhabitants.
The arc Sauron is on with ROP asks a lot more questions of his motivation and where he wants to end up.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 4 2024, 5:46pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 4 2024, 6:21pm
Post #3 of 13
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The implications of all your write are significant to Sauron's story.
We now know the orcs did not trust Sauron but Adar. Sauron makes himself right for Galadriel and now Celebrimbor; for what purpose to be a nihilistic dark lord?
Rejected by the orcs does wickedness see attraction in the beauty of the Elves, the ingenuity of the Dwarves and men.
Is their a point when he puts on the One that he believes he can bend the fair realms to his will, so they will worship him as he intended the Orcs of the beginning of the Second age?
In Numenor, if they stick to the story, he finally succeeds. He is worshipped by one of the fair races.
If the show sticks to Tolkien's legendarium, Sauron establishes the worship of Morgoth in Numenor, acting as high-priest. This might echo Sauron's tactics in the Mannish kingdoms of the East and the South.
When Sauron can no longer attain a fair form is that when he realises his constituency is the Orcs and to rule them by fear is all he is left with.
I wouldn't say that. Sauron will still control vast regions of both Rhun and Harad as well as the Variags of Khand. He has plenty of human followers even after the fall of Numenor.
Halbrand and Annatar are so convincing does he really simply want to replace Adar is that all he is attempting to do. Giving himself up and convincing Adar to let him go suggests he is merely toying with Mordor and its inhabitants.
The arc Sauron is on with ROP asks a lot more questions of his motivation and where he wants to end up.
I think it's pretty clear that Sauron doen't just want to replace Adar; he also wants revenge upon him. Sauron is already playing the long game. He might truly believe that his own plan is the best one for the ordering of Middle-earth. Of course, once the Elves reject his gifts he will also be determined to wipe them out or force them to retreat back to the Undying Lands.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 4 2024, 6:31pm
Post #4 of 13
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Hatred-fueled vengeance is one of Sauron's features, in legendarium, I reckon. Even to the point where a reader might conclude it makes no sense and is, ultimately, to Sauron's own ruin. Sauron could have harnessed a corrupted Númenor and unleashed its vast army and navy in service of conquering Middle-earth. But no, he needs to bring Ar-Pharazôn and the Númenóreans down, for what they and their ancestors did to him.
In TRoP, the human overseer who serves Adar learned the hard way that Sauron holds a grudge!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Hopefull Harfoot
Ossiriand
Sep 4 2024, 7:49pm
Post #5 of 13
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The Orcs have always been rather mysterious
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I think mainly because their history and details about them is sketchy and and times contradictory. As such it left much room for speculation. One of those details being how in the world did he change elves to orcs?
One point I'd like to make is that most artistic and film representations of them portarys them as monsterous, while Tolkien himself seemed to think of them only being really ugly (to him) people.
This short exchange in The Tower of Cirith Ungol always struck me as very interesting as far as what Tolkien imagined an orc to be.
"I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier."
"It's going well, they say."
"They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say?--if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."
'Ah!" said Shagrat. 'Like old times."
'Yes," said Gorbag. "But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped"
It sounds to me that orcs are really little different then any human brigands, pirates, etc. Not trully religious zealot types worshipping the Dark Lords (Sauron/Melkor). Its more of going with the flow and staying on the winning side of things and having no cultural basis for morality as others recognie it.
51 years since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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TFP
Menegroth
Sep 4 2024, 8:52pm
Post #6 of 13
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yeah, it doesn't feel to me that Tolkien ever quite nailed it.
the old 'corrupted elves' idea fits in nicely with the old 'nothing is evil in the beginning' line but raises some awkward questions both in terms of:
(a) elves being corruptible, contrary to [most of] the legendarium; and
(b) a 'free person' becoming irredeemably bad and/or fully subservient to another's will.
none of tolkien's alternatives struck me as obviously better.
by using Adar as a 'missing link' and showing an occasional hankering amongst the orcs for peaceful times and family values the show's writers have used one of Tolkien's own theories [albeit not one that he'd fully settled on, certainly by the end of his life] and arguably had a passably good stab at mitigating its key shortcomings .
(This post was edited by TFP on Sep 4 2024, 8:58pm)
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TFP
Menegroth
Sep 4 2024, 9:01pm
Post #7 of 13
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The implications of all your write are significant to Sauron's story.
We now know the orcs did not trust Sauron but Adar. Sauron makes himself right for Galadriel and now Celebrimbor; for what purpose to be a nihilistic dark lord?
Rejected by the orcs does wickedness see attraction in the beauty of the Elves, the ingenuity of the Dwarves and men.
Is their a point when he puts on the One that he believes he can bend the fair realms to his will, so they will worship him as he intended the Orcs of the beginning of the Second age?
In Numenor, if they stick to the story, he finally succeeds. He is worshipped by one of the fair races.
When Sauron can no longer attain a fair form is that when he realises his constituency is the Orcs and to rule them by fear is all he is left with.
Halbrand and Annatar are so convincing does he really simply want to replace Adar is that all he is attempting to do. Giving himself up and convincing Adar to let him go suggests he is merely toying with Mordor and its inhabitants.
The arc Sauron is on with ROP asks a lot more questions of his motivation and where he wants to end up.
Yes, it makes total sense to me that a Maiar of Aulë would far rather have elves and whatnot as his henchmen, possibly including Galadriel as a trophy wife, than being obliged for mostly practical reasons to rely on the company of the ragtag of twisted degenerates, fell beasts, giant spiders, and so on he ends up with by the end of the Third Age.
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 4 2024, 9:15pm
Post #8 of 13
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I never read it as corrupted elves in that sense...
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I always thought of it that orcs were descended from elves only in a physical way. They do not have souls, as they are not creations of Iluvatar, so they are not literal tortured elves, but just shells of elves.. perhaps Morgoth took some hair clippings for DNA. Or perhaps the souls were removed somehow and the remains used for breeding.
Here's a quote from Treebeard:
Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.
This why it is okay to kill a troll or orc without guilt. They are just animated Earth, soul-less mockeries of life, driven by Morgoth's will. But not really alive themselves.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Sep 4 2024, 9:22pm)
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 4 2024, 9:53pm
Post #9 of 13
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Over in the Reading Room, have you had a chance to check out noWizardme's excellent essay series on the nature of orcs, and where free will and redeemability might fit into that ('those wicked orcs', parts I-V)? Well worth a look, if not!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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TFP
Menegroth
Sep 4 2024, 9:56pm
Post #10 of 13
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A slightly different versions of events
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I agree that your quote is relevant, but then there's a slightly different angle in the Silmarillion, which Amazon doesn't have the full rights to:
...of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty... Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in eny and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar... And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery..
I suppose I took Treebeard's words with a pinch of salt, despite his great age I'm not sure he's always had his finger all that squarely on the pulse of the dealings of middle earth's great and good. for some reason I flat disbelieved his later claim that trolls were counterfeit ents, to me that seems like a really parochial theory.
generally it's a lot easier in books, especially with a sufficiently 'epic' writing style, to be vague about stuff. ambiguity can be a real strength. I think we've seen that most of all with the elven rings, the books don't ever really try to explain how or why some loops of precious metal (I won't say mithril) crafted by Celembrimbor become 'magic', or even very clearly say what that magic is. the fuller explanations given by the show haven't been desperately compelling, but I'm not sure that Tolkien himself would have wanted to be put on the spot to give a really detailed, 'midiclorians' style explanation.
(This post was edited by TFP on Sep 4 2024, 9:58pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 5 2024, 2:25am
Post #11 of 13
(1098 views)
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The implications of all your write are significant to Sauron's story.
We now know the orcs did not trust Sauron but Adar. Sauron makes himself right for Galadriel and now Celebrimbor; for what purpose to be a nihilistic dark lord?
Rejected by the orcs does wickedness see attraction in the beauty of the Elves, the ingenuity of the Dwarves and men.
Is their a point when he puts on the One that he believes he can bend the fair realms to his will, so they will worship him as he intended the Orcs of the beginning of the Second age?
In Numenor, if they stick to the story, he finally succeeds. He is worshipped by one of the fair races.
When Sauron can no longer attain a fair form is that when he realises his constituency is the Orcs and to rule them by fear is all he is left with.
Halbrand and Annatar are so convincing does he really simply want to replace Adar is that all he is attempting to do. Giving himself up and convincing Adar to let him go suggests he is merely toying with Mordor and its inhabitants.
The arc Sauron is on with ROP asks a lot more questions of his motivation and where he wants to end up. Yes, it makes total sense to me that a Maiar of Aulë would far rather have elves and whatnot as his henchmen, possibly including Galadriel as a trophy wife, than being obliged for mostly practical reasons to rely on the company of the ragtag of twisted degenerates, fell beasts, giant spiders, and so on he ends up with by the end of the Third Age.
I can see you got my general point but to expand.
The West was a well spring of creativity, in the arts (song and literature) in the upholding of matters of beauty and achievement thereof which echoed the creative imperative of the Music.
The Orcs and (O/S point about the East and the South) were barbarians. There was no hint of great achievement among the East and the South. (though ROP shows some architectural achievement). The men who were ennobled, who built viaducts, as Isilidur says to Theo, were enriched by their contact with the Elder.
For the vision of Sauron in S2 E1 to be reborn and seek to dominate the enlightened ennobled races makes sense just as Adar the corrupted Elf appears to the right leader for the Orcs.
Sauron in ROP aspirations are revealed in living breathing incarnate creatures Halbrand and Annatar, this is not the dark lord or the eye of Sauron that rules by terror. It will be interesting to see how they portray that change from flesh and blood to something which is almost pure spirit and one whose form relates more closely to the unenlightened and corrupted.
What this suggests to me is the role of Adar, and the one described in the opening post, was created to show and support Saurons transformation from the incarnate manipulative seemingly attractive charismatic to something of mere darkness. Or to put it another way if Adar had not been written who would be leading the Barbarians right now in this story?
The bedrock of the Adar/Sauron narrative is in that opening scene of Season 2 and a good deal springs from that.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 5 2024, 2:33am)
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fantasywind
Ossiriand
Sep 7 2024, 3:14pm
Post #12 of 13
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Knowledge of orcs from the books is actually plenty
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I don't get that someone who read the works of Tolkien would still not have enough interesting information about the orcs as people and their history..there is more than enough actually...there are Orcs and Orcs...some are unwilling servants and some are specially bred and trained in the armies of Dark Lord so they would be obeying him without hesitation even if ordered to kill themselves! That's how it is....in terms of their own lives...we rarely see them in their daily 'home settings' though Goblin-town in The Hobbit is probably the closest to the natural environemtn of semi independent orc tribe :). Tolkien wrote of them beginning on their own after defeat of Morgoth becoming accustomed to freedom...and setting up petty realms of their own and that sort of thing.....vast diversity in breed and language...we know of their eating habits, of their oral history being passed down, tales of the events and battles and memorable things.....stories of fear whispered by the orcs of the "terrible elf countries" etc. we know their attitudes, their tempers, their motivations there is sizeable information...we even learn a bit about the military structure of Mordor...how every orc has number (basically something like ID number in the army) and proper rank and so on...structure of command chain and duties, they are doing shifts etc.
On their own,...indeed they are pirates/brigands/bandits robbers in the hills, barbarians at the gates, cruel but capanle of organization and mustering power, practiciting slavery, their raids for food and slaves and plunder, their enmities, feuds and treacheries and internal conflicts...;lots and lots of infighting.
The orcs are THE WORST of humanity, people like to try to whitewash, explain evil away...because humans are often the worst monsters there are :). The Orcs are effect if dehumanization...as Tolkien put it dehumanization done by the tyrants of our world is not different.
Some of the Orcs would be faithful servant...Grishnakh viewed himself as this, trusted servant given more information than others...and at times almost like a....secret police type character hahah disciplining other orcs :).
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fantasywind
Ossiriand
Sep 7 2024, 4:26pm
Post #13 of 13
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Setting aside the contradiction between seasons
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Adar and Sauron certainly are on the pure revenge and contest path...Adar just...well wants to get rid of Sauron, and Sauron just wants revenge...though the writing of the show seems to be preferring and pushing Adar strongly, in the setting when faced with such a being as Sauron Adar would be long since dead...he has no power to actually stand up to Sauron...though considering how they weakened Sauron in the season 2, having him murdered by orcs of all folk..well....nerfs seem to be happening :)....jokes aside...in the first season it was said straight up in first episode that after Morgoth Sauron took over and started doing those experiments on orcs..and so on...but the opening of season 2 contradicts that showing that Sauron immediately upon assuming power ....was shanked and started to live like Venom symbiot, black goo eating things....as if writers forgot about him being a SPIRIT....well Adar in context of Tolkien lore would be nothing more than first generation orc....though I bet he wouldn't be so openly elvish looking...basically he differs not wiht some mutilated elf...he should be way more monstrious orcish looking or some creepy in between stage seemingly a mutant, not just scarred elf (if he truly is 'father' of orcs his children are not much similar to him, and that's the point the Orcs are supposed to breed and pass traits to offspring).
Anyway Adar is so hardly pushed by the script writers that he has monumental plot armor....what stops Sauron from assassinating Adar and taking over...well the plot apparently demnads that he doesn't do that yet...though I think it undermines the power and threat of a Dark Lord if he cannot deal with such an upstard who hasn't even any power, sorcery, magic whatever we call it. Adar is successful because script demands it so far....Sauron with all his powers is still showed completely unimpressive. Orcs defying Dark Lords are contrary to their plans so any sort of rebellion and disobedience must be crushed...which is clear goal for Sauron.....but they artificially made Adar stronger even though he should be nothing but dust before Sauron's might, even taking account of his power before he forged the Ring.
They certainly try to build grandiose drama about Adar and his leadership of orcs...funnily enough Sauron in lore actually did more for his orcs while still viewing them as expendable but useful slaves. Sauron actually whipped them into shape, organized them increased their discipline and skill. Hell Trolls should practically worship Sauron...he increased their wits...basically made them smarter than they were before :).
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