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malickfan
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 12:53pm
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Who buried Arwen?
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(Morbid question I know)
‘the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk’
‘and She went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien and dwelt there alone…’
‘..she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave…’
In the appendices it confirms that Arwen went to dwell alone in Lothlorien following Aragorn's death, both it and rivendell were suposedly deserted, the closest elves being in northern Greenwood, yet it states her 'grave' is upon Cerin Amroth. To me 'grave' suggests she was buried, digging a grave would probabaly be a several person job, and as Arwen was not mortal and close to death it seems Unlikely she would be able to dig it by herself. On the other hand almost all the elves were now gone and no mention is made of any of her kin being around (both Celeborn and her brothers were around for at least some of the fourth age).
A friend of mine suggested that 'laying herself to rest' was a way of saying the ground swallowed her up forming a grave of its own accord, even if this is true, and she did bury herself, how would the 'author' of the appendices know where her grave was? If they did know where she was going to die why didn't they go with her?
I may have just misread the text, but this has always left me a bit confused.
‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’
Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 17 2012, 1:00pm
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I don't think Tolkien literally meant 'grave', as in she was buried six feet under. I've always though of it as her final resting place - perhaps she simply laid down and went to "sleep".
At the same time, I just don't like the idea of the poor woman rotting on a hillside as meat for carrion. And I don't think Tolkien would either. Maybe there were still some Elves around in the area, or perhaps she was "buried" by a maiden or servant of Aragorn and Arwen's, or even one of their children?
Or perhaps she simply goes the Jedi way - her body fades after death? Turns to dust and blows away?
I think there are several possibilities. I just hope she didn't end up on an animal's dinner plate!
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malickfan
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 1:07pm
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Perhaps Radagast turned up on his Bunny sled?
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I'd also like to think Celeborn turned up and shed a quiet tear before at last making his way to the havens...though on the other hand this does make him seem a bit of a coward leaving his daughter to face death alone...hmm...
‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’
Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 17 2012, 1:19pm
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Arwen would've been Celeborn's grand-daughter.
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Though perhaps it was Celeborn who "buried" her. Tolkien never stated when he departed Middle-earth, and he would have been in the approximate area when she went to Lorien.
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Oct 17 2012, 5:20pm
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I've never thought about it, and I presume Tolkien didn't either. The point really is her passing and legacy and those are masterfully communicated to the reader through Tolkien's superb language. The very wording is just a delight to read. Beautiful.
The logistics, however, are probably something like this. She laid down on the hill and died. Someone found her and decided to bury her there. Then word probably spread that the Elven Queen of Gondor was buried at Cerin Amroth, and by the time the Appendices were written, the author was aware of her death and the location of her grave.
Just my two cents.
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 17 2012, 7:29pm
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It's been discussed here from time to time.
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Obviously, there is no definitive answer, since that poignant passage is all we have. But here are some others' thoughts:
Dec. 2010
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 17 2012, 7:31pm)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 10:09pm
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leaving aside for the moment the purely romantic view. If Arwen was a Queen she probably had some handmaidens, or retinue. How else could she eat and be housed? I dont think a Queen would wander completely alone round Lothlorien, I like to think she had Elves who were with her.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Oct 17 2012, 11:28pm
Post #8 of 30
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I have never pictured her buried;
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rather, that she lay down to die (and possibly her body remained uncorrupted) and the grass and vegetation covered her.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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Phibbus
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 4:23am
Post #9 of 30
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You have to listen very closely to Strawberry Fields.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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Phibbus
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 4:50am
Post #10 of 30
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That's sort of what I always pictured
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And I've often wondered whether Arwen's final rest on Cerin Amroth among the niphredil and elanor is not an intentional reference to the Grimm's story of Snowdrop and its theme of rebirth. I know some etymologies have interpreted niphredil ("little pallor") as meaning snowdrop or snowflake and have associated it with the real-world flower.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
(This post was edited by Phibbus on Oct 18 2012, 5:00am)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 18 2012, 1:54pm
Post #12 of 30
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retained enough residual Elven power to protect her once she died. To make sure she had a respectful burial or Barrow.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 2:01pm
Post #13 of 30
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Aragorn lies on a stone bed and is entombed, Arwen lays herself on the grass and dies alone- even though they are together they eventually die among their own lands if not their own people. As to how Arwen was buried it's likely she did inform Eldarion or her daughters she was coming back to Lothlorien- otherwise someone would not know that most of Lorien's people were gone! Yet there is no marker or tomb for her (Gondor style) so Eldarion might have contacted his relatives in Greenwood for help, maybe even Legolas'' group in Ithilien once he had confirmed his mother was dead. I cannot imagine Arwen not leaving behind some instructions for her son and heir.
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 5:22pm
Post #15 of 30
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"When the mallorn leaves were falling..."
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There were Mallorn trees on Cerin Amroth. Their leaves covered her body and the flowers covered the leaves in the next spring.
I think this was the implicit answer.
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Oct 18 2012, 6:11pm
Post #16 of 30
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Quite a lovely image there. 
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 6:41pm
Post #17 of 30
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In my view Tolkien wanted her to die listening to the great seas upon beaches and the sea-birds crying (the sounds Frodo listened there under the trees), tasting the bitterness of her Choice to the very end.
The tale of Arwen is not about a choice with a possibility of regret, but about a choice with the certainty of regret, built on hope, buried under flowers. It is also why Tolkien stresses that Aragorn never came there again as a living man, though he did came there again for her in the end, being then more than memory.
Her tale is full Silmarillion material. Good to read, hard to live.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Oct 18 2012, 9:40pm
Post #19 of 30
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I always wondered this myself.
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I like the ideas below of her having handmaidens with her, or someone who could transmit the details that we read.
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Oct 19 2012, 1:05am
Post #20 of 30
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Sad but beautiful. Full of regret but also hope.
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Oct 19 2012, 1:06am
Post #21 of 30
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Had I thanked you for every great post you write instead of Lorien I would already be somewhere in the Undying Lands!
You're most welcome.
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HiddenSpring
Menegroth
Oct 19 2012, 12:19pm
Post #23 of 30
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Arwen's death has always striked me as surpassingly sad
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Part of it has to do with what you said here: even being Aragorn's wife and Queen of Gondor, she goes to the land of her people to die. But there is nothing waiting for her once she gets there, and in a way she dies isolated from both the world of men and the world of elves. I think it's a striking ending not just to LotR but to the entire legendarium. Nothing more to tell after that.
If this sounds too bleak, however, I do believe Galadriel had foreseen Arwen's passing in Lórien, and might have prepared Cerin Amroth to "take her in", as it were, as a kind of final passing of the torch between the "morning" and the "evening star" of Elven women.
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 19 2012, 8:08pm
Post #24 of 30
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a comforting thought.
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Noel Q. von Schneiffel
Ossiriand
Oct 20 2012, 12:34pm
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I believe a tree magically fell on her to protect her body from scavenging animals.
On the other hand, this might be what killed her in the first place.
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