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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 23 2016, 4:16pm
Post #1 of 20
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Thorin Oakenshield was not the 'last of the direct line of Durin'
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This past Christmas I was gifted The Peoples of Middle Earth, Vol. 12 of the History of Middle Earth. In one section concerning the Dwarves J.R.R. Tolkien says:
Elsewhere is told of the wandering of Thorin Oakenshield, last of the direct line of Durin...
There is a footnote attached by Christopher Tolkien that says:
Thorin Oakenshield was not the 'last of the direct line of Durin'; no doubt my father meant that he was the last in the unbroken descent of the kings from father to son (cf. the right line was broken a few lines below)
I know there have been debates in the past concerning the order of succession of House Durin. Based on this footnote it sounds, to me, the direct line broke with Fili and Kili, and therefore they would have been in line for the throne before Dain.
Your thoughts...
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Mar 23 2016, 4:31pm
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I assume she is still alive. I remember a few years ago having a debate on TORn about whether Fili or Kili would have become King if they'd survived. At least a few argued that it would have gone straight to Dain, because it was a Paternal succession; therefore Dis and her sons wouldn't count. That's probably correct under English common law (see Jane Austen), so it's a pretty good guess that Tolkien's world would follow suit. And I always wondered why Balin wasn't in the succession as well, but somehow Dain trumps him. Yeah, clearly Thorin wasn't "the last" of the line of Durin, so probably what Christopher Tolkien said is correct. Sounds like a cool book, BTW
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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MyWeeLadGimli
Menegroth
Mar 23 2016, 5:03pm
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As I understand it, Dain is ahead of Balin because he is descended from Dain the first, father of Thror, whereas Balin and Dwalin are descended from Borin, Dain I's younger brother. Since Dain I had three sons, the line would go through Thror's line first, then Fror, then Gror. After them it would go back up the tree to the next line over, which would be Borin's line.
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MyWeeLadGimli
Menegroth
Mar 23 2016, 5:05pm
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People seem to confuse Durin's line with Thror's line
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Thorin (and Fili and Kili) were only the most immediate branch of the line of Durin, but Dain and most of the Company are descended from Durin as well. So as far as the movies saying that Azog vowed to wipe out Durin's line, he didn't even come close to getting there.
Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are the only Dwarves in the story who don't have a claim to the Durin lineage.
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LSF
Mithlond
Mar 23 2016, 5:16pm
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I think Azog means wiping out the direct line of Durin, meaning Thorin Fili and Kili. Those are the only three he cares about, and I doubt he would know who everyone was, how they were related, and where they fit on the family tree. That's my understanding of it, anyway.
(This post was edited by LSF on Mar 23 2016, 5:18pm)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Menegroth
Mar 23 2016, 5:24pm
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That seems oddly specific, and as far as I know no reason is given for why he wants those ones dead in the first place. But I guess Azog just places a lot of value on primogeniture.
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LSF
Mithlond
Mar 23 2016, 5:42pm
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Hey, you've got to have life goals that you can actually achieve, you know. Trying to find every single person who could have a claim on the Erebor throne and killing them...? Nah, killing the three main guys and wiping out the direct line is much more doable 
Though I am interested in what the beef Azog has with them specifically is,or if its just something he decided to do for fun.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 23 2016, 5:47pm
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Dáin Ironfoot is directly descended from Durin the Deathless from Grór, the youngest son of Dáin I. That puts him and his son Thorin Stonehelm ahead of Balin and Dwalin in the line of succession.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 24 2016, 12:01am
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Though I am interested in what the beef Azog has with them specifically is,or if its just something he decided to do for fun.
Off the top of my head, I suppose wiping out Thror and his descendants would more or less permanently ensure that there would, perhaps, never again be a serious claim made on Moria or Erebor "the gateway to the lands of the North".
So perhaps it was not so personal, but simply striking at the heart of the Longbeard clan, as it were. Then those lands would again? permanently become an orc stronghold, in theory. But the movies of course, never say...tho I imagine as long as those of Thror's line live, then there would always be an heir who could potentially rally the Longbeards - Thrain, Thorin, or Fili/Kili. (Although, it's also fun to speculate whether an enraged, grief-maddened Dis might rally the dwarves against Azog....)
Tho that leaves Dain and his kin, and apparently he DOES rally the dwarves later, but would Dain have come from the Iron Mountains without the catalyst of his cousins in Erebor - e.g., assuming Erebor had become another orc stronghold, would Dain or his son Thorin decide one day to march on Erebor and reclaim it?
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 24 2016, 2:56pm
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On your point about English law...
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...I'm not sure that's correct. At least, it depends whose estate you're looking at. If the throne of the King under the Mountain followed the same rules as the British throne did in Tolkien's day (and before it, the throne of England), when Thorin died childless the next in line would have been his brother if he had one. But Frerin had already died in battle and left no children, so after him would come their only other sibling, their sister. Dis would have inherited the throne.
It's a bit different when it comes to titles other than the crown here. A woman or girl has always been able to inherit an estate, large or small, in this country if she's the only surviving child, but not a title. Titles have generally passed down the male line unless a legal exception has been made to allow a woman to inherit. There were also legal exceptions that limited the inheritance of specific estates to the male line - as in Pride & Prejudice.
But I don't think Tolkien was following any English pattern when he invented the dwarves. I think he just made it up as he went along! 
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 26 2016, 8:09pm
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If the throne of the King under the Mountain followed the same rules as the British throne did in Tolkien's day (and before it, the throne of England), when Thorin died childless the next in line would have been his brother if he had one. But Frerin had already died in battle and left no children, so after him would come their only other sibling, their sister. Dis would have inherited the throne.
I agree Tolkien probably was not following any English pattern of succession when he invented the Dwarves; and while he may have made it up as he went along, it's possible he could have used Semi Salic Law.
Semi Salic Law is no longer practiced today but several European monarchies used it in the past. In its simplest form SSL traces inheritance through paternal and maternal lines, but females cannot inherit. Lineal relatives and their descendants inherit before collateral relatives and their descendants, paternal lines before maternal lines of the same relation, and the elder before the younger.
Even though Fili and Dain are both collateral relatives of Thorin, Fili was younger, and traced his inheritance maternally under SSL Fili would inherit before Dain. This is because descendants of lineal relatives inherit before descendants of collateral relatives. However, Fili would only inherit after Thorin's son, Frerin and Frerin's son because paternal lines inherit before maternal lines. Since Thorin and Frerin both had no sons and Frerin died before his time, under SSL Fili would have been next to inherit, followed by Kili, Nain, and Dain
Of course the only way to be for certain Tolkien used SSL (or any other possible order of succession) is if Fili and/or Kili had lived. Had they lived and the crown still passed to Dain it probably was not SSL; if it passed to Fili or Kili (assuming Fili fell and Kili did not) it probably was SSL. Considering all those who were to inherit before Dain under SSL - Fili, Kili, and Nain - died, I suspect SSL.
Another reason I suspect SSL is this quote from the book in which Thorin introduces Fili and Kili as: These are my father's daughter's sons. Obviously Tolkien was establishing Fili and Kili's relationship to Thorin, but why not simply say they were his nephews or sister's sons? Why mention Fili and Kili are related to Thrain (and Thorin) by their mother? Fili and Kili's maternal relation to Thrain and Thorin means little under an order of succession that only traces inheritance paternally, but it would mean something under SSL that traces inheritance both paternally and maternally.
There is too this quote later in the book: Upon Thorin's death, the title passed to Dáin, his cousin and nearest heir. This still fits under SSL, because as stated before all those who were to inherit before Dain under SSL died, making Dain Thorin's nearest heir.
At the end of the day the order of succession Tolken used for the Dwarves will probably remain a mystery, and any speculations made will be based each individual's personal preference.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Mar 31 2016, 8:30pm
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That's just what the line of Durin needed
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A great big squabble over an unclear succession!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 31 2016, 8:48pm
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That is the line of succession and there was no squabble.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Apr 7 2016, 7:09pm
Post #16 of 20
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So I was just revisiting this thread, and found your comment. Very interesting - I wish you'd been around for that other debate. Perhaps instead of "paternal" I should have said "male heir," since the gist of the debate was whether Fili would inherit the throne over Dain. The person I was talking with was certain that Dis would have been passed over in favor of Dain; therefore her sons were never in line to begin with. Seems a bit unfair to me
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Apr 7 2016, 8:28pm
Post #17 of 20
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I probably wouldn't have been much help at the time
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I only came across this information in recent weeks while researching for a story, so I would not have been much help at the time of the original discussion.
As I said, for me, the decrepancy lies with the deaths of Fili and Kili. Had at least one lived depending on whether or not the crown still passed to Dain, for me, would be the deciding factor.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Apr 12 2016, 2:53am
Post #18 of 20
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If Fili or Kili didn't die during the Battle of Five Armies, Dain would still be King- partly because Thorin specifically calls for him to come to Erebor and mostly because he is the only Dwarf of high standing in the region. Fili and Kili are also only revealed to be Thorin's nephews through Dis after they die.
It would make sense that The Lord of the Iron Hills would be promoted to kingship, plus he has the largest army out there.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 12 2016, 3:29am
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Fili and Kili are also only revealed to be Thorin's nephews through Dis after they die.
That is not true. Thorin introduces Fili and Kili as his nephews ("The sons of my father's daughter") at the guard-hut at Lake-town.
I'm also not so sure that Dáin would have automatically been able to claim the kingship of Erebor if Fili or Kili had survived the Battle of Five Armies. We don't have enough facts about the order of succession in the Line of Durin. The situation with Thorin not having a direct heir seems unprecedented and it might have become a matter of debate to determine who had the right to the throne. It might have even led to a schism among the Dwarves and even civil war.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Apr 13 2016, 10:54pm
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The thought has occurred to me
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That Azog in the movies, did get his aim,to wipe out the line of Durin. Just at a price.
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