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Cirashala
Valinor
Nov 10 2023, 7:33pm
Post #1 of 5
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Lesser known regions and inhabitants
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We get a great deal of information on relevant societies in the tales. Gondor, Rohan, Imladris, Breeland, the Shire, and so forth. Tolkien, in fact, dedicates whole chapters to how Hobbits live, play, work, eat, etc!
We get insight into so many areas...and yet, so many are so dark/unknown to us.
We have the lands between Bree and Imladris...who inhabits it (besides not-so-bright trolls)? We have the wilderness lands between Mirkwood and the Iron Hills, and Mirkwood and Dorwinion (which, on the latter, we know grows grapes and makes wine strong enough to make elves pass out...but not much else).
We have Near and Far Harad, we have the lands of the Easterlings (presumably even past the Iron Hills). We have the old Arnor areas in the northlands of the Shire. We have six other dwarf clans and their societies (the Longbeards are really the only ones that appear much, though we have glimpses into the Petty-dwarves and a few other instances where they fight together, but that's brief). We have Dol Amroth a little more touched upon, but still not well fleshed out.
We also have the lands southwest of the northwest parts of Middle-earth (the lands southwest of the Shire, west of Gondor), some parts of which Ghan-buri-ghan lives, but a large area otherwise not really mentioned much. We know that Rohan ancestors rode south from Framsburg...did any of them ever stay there? Presumably, perhaps the Woodsmen under Beorn descended from them?
What about the woodsmen in Mirkwood? We see in Celeborn and Thranduil's agreement post-WOTR that they are granted the middle of the wood, and they are the ones who created the east Blight. I know many in that eastern region died off in the Great Plague (I think it was)? I know that Hollin was once colonized, but I can't see more than the occasional remote farm in that area, due to the "bad vibes" or whatever that were still present that kept birds quiet.
But I cannot think that the areas we hear about in the tales are the only places where there is human habitation (or possibly even elf- maybe Dorwinion wine is so potent and sweet BECAUSE elves have a settlement in Dorwinion and they grow and make it?). I am pretty confident that, while not necessarily organized societies like the bigger kingdoms, there has to be some pockets of human habitation in these areas (or maybe even isolated pockets of hobbits and elves, as I mentioned before).
So, what say you? Do you think that there are more places of habitation in the Wilderlands and these other areas than are mentioned? What do you think these isolated human habitants are like? Nomadic, hunter-gatherers? Isolated farms? Other horsemen like the Rohirrim? Organized eastern societies that we simply do not see, because our heroes didn't go that way? Do you think there are scattered small villages in the areas mentioned? Maybe trading posts or outposts for trade routes between the bigger areas? Inns for weary travelers? Maybe even ancient wells dug by elves as they crossed from Cuvienen that are still serviceable, where villages might've sprung up around them? Perhaps ancient ruins of old grand cities that might be inhabited by a few?
And what does Tolkien say of these regions? Does he ever give any hints as to their inhabitants?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 10 2023, 8:40pm
Post #2 of 5
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There are some hints about the inhabitants of some of these regions scattered throughout The Lord of the Rings and more information can be found in Unfinished Tales[/i[] and other sources. Off the top of my head:
There are the mysterious and secretive Men of Eryn Vorn, distant cousins to the Dunlendings who still use their basal language (I hope I've used that phrase correctly!).
Enedwaith is sparsely populated by Wild Men who hunt and fish in the region and might be related to the Drúedain (Woses). Drúedain still dwell in the mountains of Andrast at the western tip of Gondor.
The Hill-men of Rhudaur are servants of Sauron, some of whom might carry a trace of Dúnedain blood due to intermarriage.
Northmen related to the Men of Esgaroth, Dale and the Éothéod likely still dwell in parts of East Rhovanion.
The Lossoth of the Bay of Forochel is the only remnant of the people of Forodwaith of which we are aware, but others could persist in the lands of the Northern Waste.
The Variags of Khand are generally thought to be Men, followers of Sauron who have long worshiped Morgoth.
Several, distinct peoples inhabit Harad, from the brown-skinned Haradrim to the black Southrons of Far Harad who seem to adopt a fearsome appearance in war.
Dorwinion is often thought to be inhabited by Men, but there is a fair-sized forest on the north-eastern coast of the Sea of Rhûn that could shelter a community of Avari. And the hills at the southern end of Dorwinion could be home to a dwarven settlement.
Tolkien never addressed the question of whether any Avari Elves or dwarves (or even hobbits!) ever migrated to any of the southern lands of Harad or other regions of Rhûn.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 10 2023, 8:44pm)
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Felagund
Gondor
Dec 3 2023, 7:05pm
Post #3 of 5
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You always set fun exam questions!
Nothing much to add to Otaku-sempai's impressive list. Some minor additional tidbits:
First Age Easterlings related to those led by the Sons of Bór broke off from the westward migration across the Ered Luin and settled in Eriador. You could play around with what ethnic and cultural differences that may have led to, in the ensuing ages, in a region otherwise dominated by kin of the Edain.
The population of the regions of Rhûn and Khand are referred to in the plural, as in there were 'peoples' who lived there. Again, that implies a degree of heterogeneity within these otherwise generically labelled 'Men of Darkness' or 'Wild Men'. The Variags may have been but one of many different groups in Khand.
If you weren't specifically fixed on the late Third Age, then there was a remnant population of Angmar living on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains, before being driven out by the newly arrived Éothéod in III.1977.
Some specific comments:
We also have the lands southwest of the northwest parts of Middle-earth (the lands southwest of the Shire, west of Gondor), some parts of which Ghan-buri-ghan lives, but a large area otherwise not really mentioned much. We know that Rohan ancestors rode south from Framsburg...did any of them ever stay there? Presumably, perhaps the Woodsmen under Beorn descended from them?
The Éothéod are said to have emigrated to Calenardhon en masse - "... they sent north for their wives and children and their goods and settled in that land [Calenardhon ]" ('Appendix A') - although, as you say, perhaps no migration is ever total. As for the Woodmen, they pre-date the Éothéod by many centuries (they're on the scene at the time of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields), so can't have been descended from the Beornings, who only emerge as a distinct group between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood after III.2941. All three are related though, under the earlier ethnonym, 'Northmen'.
And further, on:
What about the woodsmen in Mirkwood? We see in Celeborn and Thranduil's agreement post-WOTR that they are granted the middle of the wood, and they are the ones who created the east Blight. I know many in that eastern region died off in the Great Plague (I think it was)? I know that Hollin was once colonized, but I can't see more than the occasional remote farm in that area, due to the "bad vibes" or whatever that were still present that kept birds quiet.
The Woodmen, as mentioned above, had been around a long time, predating the arrival in the Vales of Anduin (between the Carrock and the Gladden) of the remnant of the Northmen, who were fleeing the Wainrider occupation of Rhovanion in the 19th century of the Third Age. As for the East Bight, that was the work of the Northmen of Rhovanion, rather than the Woodmen. The latter were denizens of the "west-eaves of the forest" between the Carrock and the Gladden, and don't appear to have been associated with the eastern edge of Mirkwood ('Cirion & Eorl'; 'Appendix A'; 'Wilderland Map', The Hobbit).
The region east of Mirkwood was indeed badly hit by the Great Plague of the 17th century of the Third Age. However, it's the Wainrider invasion of the 19th century, followed by the failed uprising of the Northmen in the subsequent century that sees the end of the Northmen as a distinct people of east Rhovanion. The remnants go on to either merge with their kin, the Men of Dale or migrate to the Vales of Anduin to become the Éothéod.
The emptiness of Hollin / Eregion, particularly given the proximity, to the south, of Dunland is an odd one. It's remarked that at the end of the Third Age the Dunlendings no longer even dwelt in northern Dunland, despite it being "a green and pleasant country" ('Many Partings'). Even more odd, in the context of the Dunlendings constantly looking to expand their holdings east of the Isen, indicating a 'land hunger' of some degree (as well as the longevity of their grudge against the Rohirrim who had dispossessed them); and the gossip picked up at the Prancing pony by Frodo & Co. about unspecified Men from the South, coming up the Greenway and needing land. Hollin was apparently off limits, a legacy, perhaps of its 'Elvishness' - something the Dunlendings at least were afraid of.
Speaking of Dunland, like Bree-land, it was, for a while one of those rare examples of a region serving as a home of very different peoples. As well as the local Dunlendings, at various points in the Third Age, hobbits (Stoors) and Dwarves (Durin's Folk) also live in Dunland. As to how much they mixed, Tolkien's feigned historians don't say, but some kind of bartering and exchange may be speculated upon.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Felagund
Gondor
Dec 3 2023, 8:51pm
Post #4 of 5
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the Hillmen of Rhudaur and the Men of Angmar
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Awesome catalogue! I love how Tolkien's work with Pauline Baynes helped to coax enhanced geography and ethnography into the public domain, as well as his correspondence with Paul Bibire - although that remained tucked away beyond sight for may years.
I was having a think about the Hillmen of Rhudaur, and a re-read of the very brief accounts we have of them, in 'Appendix A'. They are first mentioned as a distinct group at some point between the accession of Argeleb I of Arthedain in III.1349 and his death in III.1356, when an "evil lord of the Hillmen" is recorded as having seized power in Rhudaur and resisted Argeleb's claim to the kingship of all Arnor. At that time, it's also mentioned that there were very few Dúnedain left in Rhudaur - the royal line of Isildur already having failed - and that this lord of the Hillmen was in league with Angmar. A further occupation of "evil Men subject to Angmar" is mentioned in III.1409, during Angmar's invasion of Cardolan, at which point "the Dúnedain that remained there [in Rhudaur] were slain or fled west".
After their seizure of power in Rhudaur, it may be, as you say, that some intermarriage with the Dúnedain took place - perhaps along the lines of those forced marriages described and implied in Easterling-occupied Dor-lómin, following the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Anything of that nature presumably came to an end in III.1409, when Rhudaur was emptied of its already small remnant Dúnedain population - as above.
Who were these Hillmen though? Tolkien and his feigned histories don't give us much to work with - to say the least! Early drafts of this material describe them as sorcerous as well as murderous when it came to the Dúnedain (HoMe XII). From which hills do they derive their name - could there be a clue in the name? There are plenty of hills in Eriador, to the north, east and west of Rhudaur. Maybe they were part of an earlier population in Eriador, later subject to Arnor?. Are they related to the Men of Angmar, perhaps, given they shared an overlord in common? They are certainly in league with and, later, subject to Angmar. But what does this tell us, given that we know next to nothing about who the Men of Angmar are! It's implied, I reckon, that the latter's identity is specific to the heterogenous origins of the realm of Angmar itself rather than a ready-made group pre-dating the arrival of the Witch-king in the North, given the following (emphasis mine):
Its [Angmar's] lands lay on both sides of the [Misty] Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures.
I interpret this as the Witch-king gathering up and forging his soldiery from nearby regions. Over the next 475 years or so we then get an emergent identity, 'the men of Angmar' or the 'men of Carn Dûm', even if their origins can be interpreted as heterogenous. It's possible, following this speculative arc, that these post-Dúnedain rulers and occupiers of Rhudaur and the Men of Angmar were akin.
In an effort to avoid the temptation of dumping either group into an inherently 'Men of Darkness' trope bin, I note that Eriador was an ethnically mixed supra-region, with most of its population described as being comprised of kin of the Edain, of all three branches. Proto-Bëorians and proto-Hadorians are mentioned - with emphasis on the former - as well as proto-Halethrim. If you throw in the Grey Annals, you also get a branch of the Easterlings who emigrated to Beleriand under the Sons of Bór. I can't see that Tolkien made any effort, or saw a need, to explain the origins of the 'baddies' he needed to help record the destruction of Arnor and its successor kingdoms. But if we were to get speculatively syncretic, it need not be the case that the human soldiery of Angmar and its Rhudaur satellite were inevitably of the same primordially generic and 'fallen' stock as the Easterlings of Rhûn and the Haradrim. Indeed, in a roundabout way, Tolkien did broach the complex and, at times, contradictory and unhelpful nature, of the 'Men of Darkness' designation. This was through the tragic irony of post-Edainic peoples fighting each other during the Second Age, in the form of the Númenóreans killing or driving off the distant kin of the Halethrim in Enedwaith and Minhiriath - ie. in turn their own distant kin.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 7 2023, 10:02pm
Post #5 of 5
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I think the map serves the story (a different way of looking at things)
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I've been thinking a while about this, but I'm not sure I can answer helpfuly.
Instead my mind keeps returning to the idea that the map and the text of LOTR emerged together, in service to the story. So, for example, after the set pieces of the Old Forest, Tom Bombadill's place and the Barrowdowns, what we need next is a busy cosmopolitan place, good for chance meetings with many different folk. And so we come to Bree. Then Archet and Coombe are settlements to mention but for our travelers to avoid, so we don't go there. And after that we need a wide empty land far from any help or retreat in which to be pursued by Black Riders.
Put in a village of Checkhov's Gunn, and readers will inconveniently wonder why our heroes don't go there to get help (or some other plan).
We can have the Forsaken Inn (forsaken by whom and when?) and some ruins because those add atmosphere, help the story along, and allow Strider to tell us some history. But they don't get in the way of the story.
For similar reasons that are more writerly than world-builderly, Middle-earth mountains can be both literal and symbolic . And comparisons with real- world (European) history can make us wonder "Where is everyone?"
Everyone can think of further examples, I'm sure.
One I like is when Sam and Frodo get a good look at the land of Mordor. A narrator taps us on the shoulder at this point and tells us that while F&S don't know it, it isn't all like this - there are vast slave-run farms elsewhere. On the one hand that is a nice gesture to practical-minded readers who are thinking about how Sauron feeds his troops. Maybe one of Tolkien's Inkling beta-readers bowled him that one, or he thought they might? I also like the idea that the ruined land F&S see isn't the careless byproduct of some magical-industrial complex. I read it that, just as English Lords had the grounds of their stately homes restructred to look Palladian, Sauron has carefully made his look Hadean. Maybe it's ash and filth as deliberate landscaping, and Sauron as Culpability Brown, so lost from ideas of beauty and high on ruining thnings because he can that he likes things like that.
So the best (though not very helpful) answer I have to the question is that from this point of view Tolkien left the empty lands just empty - he wrote no further stories which would have needed him to send characters across them, with the necessary locations for adventures turning up. Had he done so, someone as keen on consistency as Tolkien would have had to figure out why these new exciting and useful places were not on earlier maps, or in Strider/Aragorn's route-march plans).
I realise that is a different approach to that of the feigned Geographer or feigned Historian or fan-fiction author, who wants to populate these blanks through appeals to what they think would be the most likely real-world parallels. (or, in the fan-fiction author's case, what appeals in to her own author's imagination and storytelling needs, and what she thinks she can get her readership to swallow without suspending disbelief). Those are all just different ways of enjoying yourself in Middle-earth.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 7 2023, 10:07pm)
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