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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2023, 8:10am
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A Thingol discussion
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Well as I did not get a chorus of disapproval and some seemed to like the idea, I am going for a temporary discussion of Thingol of Doraith whilst there is a pause in the Faramir one. Obviously this is a Silamarillion thing.
So Thingol. A complex character. Who appears in quite a few chapters of the Silmarillion. I would have voted for him in the poll but didn't see the character there. He firstly appears as someone that goes to Valinor and comes back if I remember rightly. He then has Melian as spouse, has Lithuien as daughter and rules the forest elven kingdom of Doriath. So far so good. But when the Noldor appear he does not get on with some of the Feanor section of their leaders. Or any of the others for that matter. This does seem reasonable although he could have perhaps thought about uniting more against Morgoth the common enemy.
At first in Beren and Luthien he comes across a bit like an irritating father but sees the error of his ways eventually one supposes and in Turin's tale he is like a wishy uncle frustrated at Turin's little ways, but then later just when you think that he is a changed character he returns to his old bad ways in Doriath's destruction by insulting and refusing to pay a reasonable fee to the Dwarves. Possibly under the influence of the curse of the Silmarils, somehow?
A couple of final questions for now. Does Thingol get a mention by name anywhere in Lotr. Luthien does obviously as does Doriath, but does Thingol? Also this is a bit of a what if, but suppose somehow that Thingol appeared later on in Lotr and had access to the One Ring, what would his attitude have been?
Anyway this is kind of an unofficial reading room discussion of Thingol if anyone wants to contribute. I would have voted for Thingol in the poll, but did not see an option and I thought it interesting to discuss a Silmarillion character for a change.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 21 2023, 2:47pm
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It's hard for me to imagine Thingol's behavior toward the One Ring as any different from his greedy, arrogant behavior with the Silmaril that that Dwarves reset in Felagund's necklace for him. I think he would have succumbed to it like Boromir did, dreaming of alliances that he would lead to rule the world for the betterment of all, with an emphasis on him being the #1 power.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2023, 10:24pm
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Thanks for starting this thread, Hamfast! :) Thingol is a fascinating character, so it's enjoyable to discuss him.
just when you think that he is a changed character he returns to his old bad ways in Doriath's destruction by insulting and refusing to pay a reasonable fee to the Dwarves. Possibly under the influence of the curse of the Silmarils, somehow?
I think you're on the right track. The Silmarillion notes that when Thingol set a Silmaril as Lúthien's pride price, "he wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos" (ch. 19). His interactions with the Dwarves specifically were potentially impacted by a separate curse which lay upon the former hoard of Glaurung, including the Nauglamír (in which the Silmaril was set by the Dwarves whom Thingol refused to pay). Tolkien discussed this idea in the manuscript "Concerning ... 'The Hoard'", where the dragon curse apparently factored in the collapse of the Girdle of Melian, though this involved a difference sequences of events RE: Doriath's later history than is depicted in the 1977 Silmarillion.
That said, as with the eternal discussion of how much Túrin brought his own misery on himself as opposed to being the helpless victim of a curse, we shouldn't ignore Thingol's preexisting awful personality. He was arrogant and vindictive and didn't listen to his much smarter wife (unlike Tuor, who fared better than just about any of the kings or heroes of the First Age :P), and I think it's reasonable to believe this played a role in his susceptibility to curses. Beren interacted with the Silmaril and the Nauglamír as much as anybody and he remained a much chiller person than his father-in-law—even after dying—though this didn't keep him from avenging Thingol's death.
Does Thingol get a mention by name anywhere in Lotr.
Thingol is mentioned by name during Aragorn's explanation of the story of Beren and Lúthien after singing a song about them (FOTR, I 11), and several times in Appendices A, B, E, and F.
suppose somehow that Thingol appeared later on in Lotr and had access to the One Ring, what would his attitude have been?
As CuriousG says, I imagine Thingol would have been as susceptible to the Ring's temptation as anyone, and more than most. It's possible that, like Galadriel, his personality would have mellowed in the intervening millennia, but his survival would change the course of events significantly, to the point that it's difficult to speculate on how history, or Thingol's personal growth, would have proceeded.
(This post was edited by Eldy on Dec 21 2023, 10:26pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 23 2023, 3:36pm
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The eternal discussion: susceptibility to curses
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Eldy!  Hi! Seems like I haven't 'seen' you around for ages - long enough for us both change avatars, anyway 
That said, as with the eternal discussion of how much Túrin brought his own misery on himself as opposed to being the helpless victim of a curse, we shouldn't ignore Thingol's preexisting awful personality. He was arrogant and vindictive and didn't listen to his much smarter wife (unlike Tuor, who fared better than just about any of the kings or heroes of the First Age :P), and I think it's reasonable to believe this played a role in his susceptibility to curses. Beren interacted with the Silmaril and the Nauglamír as much as anybody and he remained a much chiller person than his father-in-law—even after dying—though this didn't keep him from avenging Thingol's death. I think you're right about that and have nothing of value to add.
But maybe I can add something of interest about it being an eternal discussion. It certainly is an eternal one - and a fun one. I think it's much the same discussion about the effect of being a Ringbearer too. There too, there's some interaction between personality and magical item, and separating teh Yang from the Yin is probably impossible.
I wonder whether what makes Tolkien's ambiguity about this so eternally appealing is that it appeals to several shiver-inducing things at once. If so, then different readers pick up on quite different but equally plausible things, each according to what particularly appeals to their readers mind and imagination.
Consider Frodo on Amon Hen (LOTR, of course):
“He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. The Frodo who calls out Never, never! is at risk of simply being psychologcally (or spiritually) overwhelmed.
The Frodo who calls out Verily I come, I come to you is eager for his own destruction, or corruption, or whatever that would be.
At this stage, Frodo does not know which he is or whether his personality contains both.
Brrrr! - whether the thought of being overpowered is worse, or the thought of being corrupted.
(And of course I realise that other interpretations are also available: is someone says that Never, never! is Frodo and Verily I come, I come to you is the Ring speaking through Frodo, then all I can say is that works too )
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Dec 25 2023, 3:02am
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Hey, noWiz! It's good to see you, too. I've made very few posts on any forums this year (a mix of being generally withdrawn and caught up in an extended Harry Potter phase since this past spring  ), but it's always really nice to come back and be remembered.
I have mixed feelings on the personality vs curse topic, though my views have evolved over the years to put more emphasis on the supernatural aspect than I used to. In Thingol's case, I don't like him to begin with (though he's very fun to read about!), so it's easier to blame his personality.  But the ambiguity is definitely a strength, and you raise some good points with the Frodo example!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 26 2023, 9:38pm
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The fact about Thingol that no one ever considers
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In all of the discussion of Thingol that I have seen, he is looked at as one of the Children of Eru; one of the greatest amongst the Eldar, for sure, but still basically someone who the rules that are applied to Men and Elves should be applied to (whether those rules are the same for Men and Elves is another questions altogether). But it isn't true. While Thingol started out as one of the Eldar, and one of the three leaders of the earliest Elves who was brought to Valinor by Oromë to convince the Eldar to come there and live with the Valar and Maia, that changed when he encountered Melian.
The Silmarillion just says:
She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.
I've never seen any discussion about what exactly this means, but to me it means that Thingol is transformed from one of the Eldar to a different form of being altogether. That is not to say that he has become one of the Ainu, but he has been transformed into a being that is able to become a mate with one of the Ainu. As such he needs to be looked at differently. That doesn't mean that he becomes more admirable; on the contrary, as you have already observed Thingol is often one of the most unattractive of all of Tolkien's characters (though he does some admirable things, like taking in Túrin has his foster-son, and eventually accepting Beren). But he has a level of arrogance beyond (I would argue) any of the Eldar, even Fëanor, to the extent that he disregarded the advice of his Maia mate Melian ("MMM" for short)*. Interestingly, when that arrogance eventually leads to his downfall, there is no discussion whatsoever of his reincarnation back in the Undying lands (such as with Finrod)or even his being held in the Halls of Mandos until the end of the world (such as with Fëanor). Not sure what that means, or if it was nothing more than an oversight, but Tolkien didn't make many of those. I think it means something, not just for Thingol, but for his daughter Lúthien and all of her descendants, through to Aragorn and beyond.
* One could say that both Túrin and Turgon disregarded the advice of Ulmo at different points, and that both of them did so out of a form of arrogance, but I would still argue that Thingol's arrogance was of a completely different nature.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 26 2023, 11:19pm
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The unrealized potential of Thingol (IMO)
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I agree your point that Thingol was marked as someone special by the spell laid on him by Melian, and later in that passage it furthers your point with
Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering, and king though he was of Úmanyar, he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light, mighty upon Middle-earth. He not only had power granted to him by Melian, but also from having beheld the Two Trees in their prime as a special emissary of the Valar. He ought to be a great mover and shaper of events, like a Feanor or Fingolfin or Turgon or Maedhros. But is he?
We're given a lofty and promising idea behind his character, but how is it executed, and how does the abstract concept find its way into tellable details? Because it doesn't help him win the early battles against Morgoth in Beleriand, or not convincingly, and after learning that poor Cirdan has been defeated and "driven to the rim of the sea," Thingol withdraws into Doriath. Does he fashion the Girdle? No, Melian does.
Does Thingol sit in Menegroth and meditate on war, nurturing his forces while brooding on some way to go to Cirdan's rescue, devising some clever strategy and heroically leading his forces to victory in a great liberating march to the sea? Nope, never, and doesn't even try. But he's the High King of Beleriand and therefore Cirdan's liege, right? Yep. When the Noldor arrive and drive Morgoth back into his fortress, does Thingol ever say, "Great, fresh troops and allies. Now, here's my plan to defeat Morgoth once and for all!" Nope. Kind of a letdown when it comes to a sense of loyalty, vision, leadership, and responsibility from a high king.
I'll stop there, because I don't want this to be a Thingol-bashing post. My point is rather that there are a few key times when Thingol could have stepped up to a higher role, such as Fingolfin leading the unity feast at Ivrin, Turgon breaking the circle of Gondolin to march heroically to the support of Fingon in the Nirneath, Finrod fighting Sauron in support of his oath to Beren's house, or Maedhros organizing the great coalition of Elves, Men, and Dwarves against Morgoth.
Does Thingol ever take the initiative in the war against Morgoth? No. But when he learns Luthien is a captive in Nargothrond, he seriously contemplates a new Kinslaying (remember how horrible that notion was to everyone, including him?) just out of petty jealousy and rage. Yes, I understand he's a father wishing to rescue his daughter, I get it, but again, where's the chessmaster trying to unite all the Eldar, Edain, and Dwarves against Morgoth and bring peace and security to his wide realm? Where are his wars for the common good? (I'll grant the allied intervention in the woods of Brethil to help Haleth's people was a good but small step; more border war than master stroke.)
So to circle back to your point: yes, it seems like Thingol is somehow endowed with special powers that would destine him to be a great leader, but somehow he never gets around to being one. I feel like Tolkien wrote him as two different people and never quite fused them together.
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Dec 26 2023, 11:21pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 27 2023, 12:11am
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You are judging him by the standards of a king of the Elves, which is what he pretends to be. But he isn't, not really.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2023, 12:27am
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So, what is he? Because he doesn't seem very Maiar to me. What other options do we have?
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Also, wasn't Tolkien pretending Thingol was a king of the elves? I'm having trouble finding clues to him being anything else other than the initial points we agreed on.
In some ways he seems like Saruman in his arrogance, but that is a weak link that I wouldn't put any weight on.
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Dec 27 2023, 12:30am)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 27 2023, 12:33am
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Who knows? He is something unique and beyond understanding. Kind of like Yahweh allowing Satan take away all of his Job's wealth, kill all his children, and inflict him with a wasting disease.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 27 2023, 2:49am
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Dec 27 2023, 7:36am
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...that the chief significance of Thingol and Melian's union is tied to that of Beren and Lúthien's. The latter were (along with Tuor and Idril) unknowing parts of "a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" since, through their children, there was an "entering into Men of the Elven-strain" (Letters, no. 153). Tolkien goes no further than that, but Lúthien being of half Maiarin ancestry would seem to mean there was an Ainurin-strain in all her descendants. Moreover, Lúthien's exceptional magical abilities are implied to be a result of her ancestry—"Melian's daughter of deep lore / knew many things, yea, magics more / than then or now know elven-maids" (The Lay of Leithian, lines 1426–1428)—and the Quest of the Silmaril would have failed many times over without her ability to bail out Beren, the one "for whose support her love was made" (line 3361). So in the really grand scheme of things, Thingol, no matter the criteria by which one judges his record as a king, fulfilled his most important purpose as soon as he became a father. :P
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Felagund
Gondor
Dec 27 2023, 12:39pm
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Awesome to see you in the Reading Room again, Voronwë! And Eldy too! It's felt like ages.
I agree with and don't have much to add to the sentiments and analysis in the thread already. Thingol is tough to like overall, even with the more empathetic behaviour towards Beren (eventually) and his foster-son Túrin. Dwelling on the latter for the moment, this has always struck me as a massive deal. An Elven king, and one of the haughtiest of the Eldar no less, fostering a human child - and one of the haughtiest and most tempestuous of the Second Children, no less.
Anyway, your observation about what happened to Thingol, after the slaying of his hröa in the bowels of Menegroth. I see that in 'The Ruin of Doriath' chapter of The Silmarillion there's the line "his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos". Thingol definitely strikes me as unique in his lifetime, or physical incarnation in Arda I suppose is what I mean. But when it comes to it, he's still of the Eruhíni and must wend his way to the Halls of Mandos, like the others of his kind. Coming back to his uniqueness, I reckon I agree with Eldy that this is more to do with his function as co-providing a unique genetic heritage to the rulers of Men than him becoming something 'else', something more than an Elda through his union with Melian.
On the topic of 'transmission', and in a more tangential vein, what Thingol and Melian constructed and maintained in Doriath is a model for Lórien. It's not quite as insular as Doriath but it's not far off. And Thingol and Celeborn get praise of their own, including 'wise', and both ultimately rely upon their partners for an infusion of the 'supernatural' to guard the realms they co-rule. Moreover, both realms function as havens in the narrative, where succour is available, rather than where wars are planned or launched. The analogy is imperfect, inevitably. And it doesn't cause me to disagree with CuriousG's observations about the passivity of Thingol. Nor the general view in the thread that Thingol isn’t the most likable character. The self-proclaimed Lord of Beleriand doesn't do much to protect Beleriand beyond the specific borders of Doriath, at least by force of arms. His abiding hatred of the House of Fëanor effectively puts paid to that. It does, however, provide a bit of context for me when I re-read Thingol.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2023, 4:46pm
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Thingol--like a good fish, he fertilized the eggs, then he died. //
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2023, 5:17pm
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There may be a lot to that in the Ulmo scheme of things
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Ulmo seemed to see the defeat of everyone as inevitable doom, but he saw enough value in the Noldor holding out as long as possible in Nargothrond and Gondolin that he gave the dreams to Finrod and Turgon to build them, plus he helped disguise Turgon's exodus frorm Nevrast.
Similarly, I see Doriath filling that role: a 3rd holdout kingdom when most others had fallen, though Ulmo had no obvious role in it. Was the main idea just keeping hope alive in the downtrodden? There's plenty of value in that. So if you were living in Beleriand post-Nirnaeth as "a rustic folk of dell and cave," you might draw inspiration from Doriath and the other realms standing strong like rock promontories in river rapids: unable to stop the flood, but not succumbing to it either. It seems similar in theme to the Heirs of Isildur perpetuating their lineage in the wilderness, hoping for better days to come where they could achieve a restoration of Numenorean majesty, and it's no accident Aragorn was also named Hope.
I would also say it ties in with the existential observation Gandalf made to Denethor about keeping hope alive for the future even when the world seems overrun and beaten because the mighty have fallen:
'And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.' It reminds me of the extinction level events that have hit the earth in its history. 95% of all species can be wiped out, but still somehow "life" survives and repropagates. Or on a smaller scale, how resistance fighters needed hope in WW2 when Hitler had overrun most of Europe.
So maybe there was more to Thingol than being a good fish.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 27 2023, 11:54pm
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First of all, I agree with you and Eldy that Thingol's real main purpose was a conduit to allow the transmission of an "angelic" strain into the kings of Men. And thank you for your correction about Thingol's ultimate fate; I had forgotten that Tolkien had included that.
That having been said, I find your observation about the parallels between Doriath (and Thingol and Melian) with Lórien (and Celeborn and Galadriel) interesting. It is, of course, interesting in an of itself (and quite accurate), but it is also interesting because Thingol ALSO provides a model for the Elvenking in The Hobbit (who eventually turns out to be Thranduil). Indeed, as John Rateliff discusses at length in The History of The Hobbit, a credible argument could be made that the Elvenking was originally intended to be Thingol himself! While I don't quite buy that, I do find it fascinating that he provided a model for both Celeborn AND Thranduil.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 28 2023, 12:41pm
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Or... things went perfectly successfully (from a wider point of view)?
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I'm wondering whether there are some similarities with Saruman, who of course we recently discussed at length.
Like Thingol, one might expect Saruman to use his powers to further the cause of what seems to be being presented to us readers as 'good' or 'what is meant to be'.
But instead, Saruman tries to take the One Ring, and Thingol tries to stop the marriage of Beren and Luthien.
However, these efforts have weird consequences. Saruman's double-crossing everyone causes an number of unexpected things to happen that bring Merry and Pippin to Fangorn 'in the nick of time' and force Aragorn to stop trying to help Frodo directly and to focus on the relief of Gondor. (And one can argue for other overall positive effects).
Similarly, what if Thingol sits Beren down and says "Absolutelly, my dear chap! Anyone my daughter fancies must be a fine fellow indeed. And anyway, my wife (to whom I always listen) says this is a matter of fate with which I would be foolish to interfere."? I think Tolkien has a lot of re-writing to do.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 28 2023, 10:34pm
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Maybe so, Maybe not. We’ll see.
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There is a Chinese Proverb that goes something like this…
A farmer and his son had a beloved stallion who helped the family earn a living. One day, the horse ran away and their neighbors exclaimed, “Your horse ran away, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”
A few days later, the horse returned home, leading a few wild mares back to the farm as well. The neighbors shouted out, “Your horse has returned, and brought several horses home with him. What great luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”
Later that week, the farmer’s son was trying to break one of the mares and she threw him to the ground, breaking his leg. The villagers cried, “Your son broke his leg, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”
A few weeks later, soldiers from the national army marched through town, recruiting all the able-bodied boys for the army. They did not take the farmer’s son, still recovering from his injury. Friends shouted, “Your boy is spared, what tremendous luck!” To which the farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2023, 1:20am
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I think the phenomenon you (accurately!) describe is a recurring thing with a lot of characters. Events in Arda have a tendency to work out in accordance with Eru's unknowable grand scheme. He says this explicitly to the Ainur...
[...] no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me [Eru], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. [...] each of you shall find contained [in Eä], amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory (TS, Ainulindalë)
...but I think it's broadly applicable to Incarnates as well. As one commentator puts it:
Ilúvatar, as ever, does not compel or predestine, but his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many. (David Cremona, letter to Beyond Bree, June 1991, p. 10; qtd. in Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, pp. 199–200)
I'm not entirely sure I'd agree with Mr. Cremona on the free will vs determinism debate, which this subject inevitably brushes up against, but I'm not nearly well-rested enough to try to comment on that. :P Regardless, I've loved the phrase "his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many" since I first read it.
—
ETA: To be clear, the Hammond & Scull book cited is The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (2005), not to be confused with their Reader's Guide, the second volume (second and third volumes in the revised edition) of The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide (2006/2017). Just in case things seemed too simple. ;)
(This post was edited by Eldy on Dec 29 2023, 1:30am)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Dec 30 2023, 12:02am
Post #21 of 45
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This has been my answer to, 'Why didn't Frodo fly on an eagle to Mordor?'
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I think the phenomenon you (accurately!) describe is a recurring thing with a lot of characters. Events in Arda have a tendency to work out in accordance with Eru's unknowable grand scheme. He says this explicitly to the Ainur... [...] no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me [Eru], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. [...] each of you shall find contained [in Eä], amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory (TS, Ainulindalë)
Destroying the Ring was only one part of Eru's plan. There were an awful lot of things that wouldn't have happened if the Fellowship hadn't taken the long way - the return of the King of Gondor being only one.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2023, 6:11pm
Post #22 of 45
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A sperm whale and a bowl of petunias
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I suppose it is almost inevitable in stories - we follow the paths of certain main characters (Beren and Luthie, or Frodo etc.), and unless the story is infinitely regressive there must be minor characters who within the story exist only to do or be something that is on the main characters' paths.
If the story were real life, then of course these minor characters would be the main characters of their own story. Or that is how it would feel to them.
Or, authors could help: Author Phillip Pullman wrote a story (which I must get around to reading) called I Was A Rat! following the 'path' of the rat who was turned into a page boy as a casual consequence of the Cinderella story...and is quickly forgotten in that story, but (logic would suggest) trying to get on in his own story.
Pullman writes about this storytelling as a path through the woods idea in Daemon Voices: Essays on Storytelling (2017). I found it interesting.
Ought I explan the "sperm whale and a bowl of petunias" reference? It is getting to be a long time ago. But author Douglas Adams created a comedy science-fiction radio show (initially) called Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy, in which a sperm whale and a bowl of petunias are materialised above a planet as a minor consequence of a plot point: one of many things promptly forgotten by the main characters ars they (and the audience) proceed with the story. Adams, however, plays it for tragi-comedy:
“Another thing that got forgotten was the fact that against all probability a sperm whale had suddenly been called into existence several miles above the surface of an alien planet.
And since this is not a naturally tenable position for a whale, this poor innocent creature had very little time to come to terms with its identity as a whale before it then had to come to terms with not being a whale any more.
This is a complete record of its thoughts from the moment it began its life till the moment it ended it.
Ah … ! What’s happening? it thought.
Er, excuse me, who am I?
Hello?
Why am I here? What’s my purpose in life?
What do I mean by who am I?
Calm down, get a grip now … oh! this is an interesting sensation, what is it? It’s a sort of … yawning, tingling sensation in my … my … well I suppose I’d better start finding names for things if I want to make any headway in what for the sake of what I shall call an argument I shall call the world, so let’s call it my stomach.
Good. Ooooh, it’s getting quite strong. And hey, what’s about this whistling roaring sound going past what I’m suddenly going to call my head? Perhaps I can call that … wind! Is that a good name? It’ll do … perhaps I can find a better name for it later when I’ve found out what it’s for. It must be something very important because there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Hey! What’s this thing? This … let’s call it a tail – yeah, tail. Hey! I can can really thrash it about pretty good can’t I? Wow! Wow! That feels great! Doesn’t seem to achieve very much but I’ll probably find out what it’s for later on. Now – have I built up any coherent picture of things yet?
No.
Never mind, hey, this is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I’m quite dizzy with anticipation …
Or is it the wind?
There really is a lot of that now isn’t it?
And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground!
I wonder if it will be friends with me?
And the rest, after a sudden wet thud, was silence.
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.”
Douglas Adams, Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy
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"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 31 2023, 6:20pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2023, 7:34pm
Post #23 of 45
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That's what I think (until I disagree with myself)
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What I think (until I disagree with myself) is that something in Middle-earth throws our characters repeated chances for things to work out. That's as well when the correct choice for characters to make can be counter-intuitive and hard for them to identify. (Top tip - listen to your 'heart'). And the correct choice might not be a palatable one -- maybe the menu is down to unpleasant choices and it is time to die as honourably as possible in the hope that will be worth something (or even 'a song') when others carry the story on.
I might also add that this seems to make feigned-theological sense. The stories involve a Godhead whose creation is marred in the making. Instead of starting over again, the marred creation is accepted and is to be redeemed by its own operations (in particular, by the choices made by the Children of illuvitar). If the eventual redemption of the creation is inevitable and yet choices are free, then how to retain any practical difference between the morality of choices? (That is: if it is all bound to work out OK somehow, then what does it matter if Frodo sets out boldly or stays at home lazily; or Beren and Luthien risk all to overcome all, or give up?). I prefer to think that choices do matter and so more choice are offered until progress is painfully made (and think I could justify this textually, though it would be a looooooooong essay, and probably not all that original).
Partly this moral problem is a matter of scale: the music may complete eventually even if the Shire is burned to the ground by Sauron or Saruman and every last surviving hobbit enslaved. Maybe something else will turn up someday. But the hobbits would care about the difference (and that's a major reason Frodo sets out).
What complicates this is that the implied wishes of Eru and theological workings of Middle-earth get mightly mixed up with the seperate 'music' and mechanics of Tolkien's storytelling. For me at least. Eru is a character invented by Tolkien the storyteller, after all, and is part of his story. Short of discovering a memorandum by Tolkien called What does Eru want? we have no independent insight on this.
So this leaves us asking how we know what the supposed 'will of Eru' and outcome of the Music is anyway, and how it differs in any real way from the satisfying outcomes Tolkien writes to the stories. I think we simply infer the first from the second and then assume the second shows the first at work.
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"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 31 2023, 9:57pm
Post #24 of 45
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You only wrote that because Eru told you to
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jk!
More seriously, I would title this "Eru's Music vs the Individual." And in the spirit of good citizens using recycling bins, I'll recycle my Gandalf quote:
Quote
'And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.'
Sure sounds similar to the Eru quote that Eldy posted. Aside from the story reason of Gandalf's fairly recent "naked I was sent back" [to Eru, we assume, given various sources and text interpretation] and having Eru on his mind (aka recency bias), I think he's appealing to Denethor's intellect with a bold philosophical confession. For all their verbal jousting, my perspective is that Gandalf would still like to win over Denethor as a friend instead of a reluctant host and suspicious ally, and appealing to his intellect is appealing to his pride, which Denethor has plenty of.
I never take Gandalf literally when he says that, and all his actions counter that statement. If he meant it literally, he could fiddle while Minas Tirith burned, drink wine, and say, "It's all part of the plan, and something will survive somewhere, so stop that yammering about being plundered and pillaged." Instead he takes over the defense of the city, tries to keep up the morale of the wall defenders, and faces the Witch-king alone when everyone else has fled.
So he doesn't mean it literally, but I would still assert that Gandalf believes it as part of the big picture, and he straddles both worlds: Eru's Music will win in the end, and by golly, we're gonna stop Sauron! So he suffers no cognitive dissonance by subscribing to both fatalism and the urgency of free will. And I'm not sure that he even should.
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Felagund
Gondor
Jan 4 2024, 7:44pm
Post #25 of 45
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With all this talk of Thingol being a model, for a moment I imagined him on a catwalk, strutting his stuff in the latest greymantle chic...!
Absolutely agree with you on the Thingol / Doriath - Thranduil / Elvenking's Halls modelling. In my post-Silmarillion re-reads of The Hobbit, I began to 'see' Menegroth in that lovely illustration titled 'The Elvenking's Gate', which features in Chapter 9, 'Barrels Out of Bond'. That one also happens to be one of my favourite Tolkien illustrations. you can disappear right into it, I reckon!
I note too that Tolkien drew an interesting 'in-world' link of sorts between Menegroth and the Elvenking's Halls. In the ever-fascinating and wending telling(s) of 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn', Thranduil's father, Oropher is said to come "from Doriath after its ruin" and "no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared to Menegroth. He had not the arts nor the wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic."
Thinking back to 'The Elvenking's Gate' illustration again, and the textual descriptions, the layout feels very similar to Menegroth too. Rateliff probably already covered the similarities in the descriptions (I don't have his book to hand), so I'll be brief:
Where the Esgalduin flowed down, and parted Neldoreth from Region, there rose in the midst of the forest a rocky hill, and the river ran at its feet. There they [the Naugrim] made the gates of the hall of Thingol, and they built a bridge of stone over the river, by which alone the gates could be entered. Beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves. ['Of the Sindar', The Silmarillion]
Compared with:
Suddenly the torches stopped, and the hobbit had just time to catch them up before they began to cross the bridge. This was the bridge that led across the river to the king's doors. The water flowed dark and swift before the mouth of a huge cave that ran into the side of a steep slope covered with trees. There the great beeches came right down to the bank till their feet were in the stream... Inside... In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking on a chair of carven wood. ['Barrels Out of Bond', The Hobbit]
A river, a bridge offering the only egress to a gate, itself an entrance to underground halls beneath a hill. And the beautifully figurative 'hewn from the living stone'. One literally the model for the other, in many respects, and another great example of Elder Days recycling popping up in The Hobbit :)
PS I'm showing my age with that terrible reference to Models Inc...! And dubious eclectic taste in mid-90s television.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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