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** Mount Doom ** - 3. The Slopes of Mount Doom
 

squire
Gondolin


Aug 31 2011, 12:19pm

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** Mount Doom ** - 3. The Slopes of Mount Doom Can't Post

Continuing our discussion of Chapter 3, I will be focusing each day on just a few choice passages from the chapter. Today we follow Sam and Frodo as they arrive at the foot of Orodruin, the volcano that houses the Cracks of Doom.

Here is today’s map for your reference:


From the foot of Mount Doom to Sauron’s Road. Base map by Barbara Strachey.


Passage IX. No more questions.

With a gasp Frodo cast himself on the ground. Sam sat by him. To his surprise he felt tired but lighter, and his head seemed clear again. No more debates disturbed his mind. He knew all the arguments of despair and would not listen to them. His will was set, and only death would break it. He felt no longer either desire or need of sleep, but rather of watchfulness. He knew that all the hazards and perils were now drawing together to a point: the next day would be a day of doom, the day of final effort or disaster, the last gasp.


A. What does “tired but lighter” mean?

His will was set, and only death would break it. By my count, the word “will”, meaning the hobbits’ will to push on with their quest despite all obstacles and difficulties, is invoked 12 times in this chapter.
B. Is Tolkien consciously or unconsciously propounding the early-20th century philosophy that life is an unrelenting struggle for domination in which the individual can (or must) overcome internal and external obstacles through sheer determination – most famously expressed by Nietzsche with his "der Wille zur Macht”, or Will to Power?

He felt no longer either desire or need of sleep, but rather of watchfulness.
C. Um, not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but does this sentence actually make sense?

This passage emphasizes the end of Sam’s internal doubts and worries about how to proceed.
D. Is Sam experiencing a catharsis here, having paid penance through suffering?

E. In a deserted landscape, having left behind all apparent enemies, what “hazards or perils”, now “drawn together to the point” of the next day, does Sam anticipate?


Passage X. Pig-a-back.

Sam looked at him and wept in his heart, but no tears came to his dry and stinging eyes. ‘I said I’d carry him, if it broke my back,’ he muttered, ‘and I will!’
‘Come, Mr. Frodo!’ he cried. ‘I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well. So up you get! Come on, Mr. Frodo dear! Sam will give you a ride. Just tell him where to go, and he’ll go.’
As Frodo clung upon his back, arms loosely about his neck, legs clasped firmly under his arms, Sam staggered to his feet; and then to his amazement he felt the burden light. He had feared that he would have barely strength to lift his master alone, and beyond that he had expected to share in the dreadful dragging weight of the accursed Ring. But it was not so. Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit-child pig-a-back in some romp on the lawns or hayfields of the Shire. He took a deep breath and started off.



Up Mount Doom
, by Solarfall



In an earlier passage that we did not examine, Sam did argue to himself that he would carry Frodo if necessary: “I’ll carry Mr. Frodo up myself, if it breaks my back and heart.”
E. Was Sam literally anticipating the solution he now adopts, or was he just being figurative and only now realizes that there is no other way?

F. Does this scene invoke pathos, or bathos? That is, does it appeal to the reader’s imaginative sympathies or does its incongruity render the moment ludicrous?

Tolkien proposes that Frodo does not weigh much in Sam’s arms either because Frodo has lost weight through his long emotional suffering, or because Sam has received a gift of “final strength”.
G. Why not because Frodo is nearly starved to death?

H. Given that both explanations are fantastic, which one do you think Tolkien favors? Which one do you favor?

I. Why does Sam not feel the weight of the Ring, as he had feared?

J. If until now it could be argued that Sam’s emotional relationship to Frodo was more “wife” than lover, what does it mean that he is now apparently Frodo’s “dad”, not “mom”?

K. Where else in the story are we asked to imagine hobbit parents playing games with their children?

Passage XI. The flicker of a piercing Eye.

Sam drew a deep breath. There was a path, but how he was to get up the slope to it he did not know. First he must ease his aching back. He lay flat beside Frodo for a while. Neither spoke. Slowly the light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: ‘Now, now, or it will be too late!’ He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to have felt the call. He struggled to his knees.
‘I’ll crawl, Sam,’ he gasped.
So foot by foot, like small grey insects, they crept up the slope. They came to the path and found that it was broad, paved with broken rubble and beaten ash. Frodo clambered on to it, and then moved as if by some compulsion he turned slowly to face the East. Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck.
Sam knelt by him. Faint, almost inaudibly, he heard Frodo whispering: ‘Help me, Sam! Help me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can’t stop it.’ Sam took his master’s hands and laid them together, palm to palm, and kissed them; and then he held them gently between his own. The thought came suddenly to him: ‘He’s spotted us! It’s all up, or it soon will be. Now, Sam Gamgee, this is the end of ends.’

Crawling up the mountain, from Rankin-Bass, The Return of the King (1980)


L. Why does the narrator give a voice and words to the “sense of urgency” that Sam and Frodo suddenly feel?

The shadows that have hidden the Dark Tower are here identified as “mantling clouds”, even though they move aside either because of a wind or because of Sauron’s conflicted mood. This theme of shadows with a kind of physicality recurs throughout the book.
M. Is there any way to decipher the idea of shadows that have a life of their own? What do you see in your head when you read such descriptions?

Barad-dûr is described as having a “topmost tower” with “cruel pinnacles and iron crown”.
N. From this description, is the Dark Tower a primarily vertical construction like a skyscraper (as the New Line films so strongly portrayed it)? Or is it more block-like and mountainous, as Tolkien actually once illustrated it?

O. What place does “iron” have in the symbolic dictionary of The Lord of the Rings?


Barad-dûr
(part of larger illustration) by J. R. R. Tolkien


P. From this description, should we understand that Sauron actually sits at a large window in his top tower, looking out over Middle-earth and seeing things with his “eye”?

The “flicker of red” from Sauron’s eye “stabs northward”, not west to Frodo.
Q. Does that mean it has directionality, like a visible beam of some kind?

R. Does the reminder that at this moment, the attack on the Captains of the West at the Morannon is proceeding, help or hurt the drama by highlighting an unlikely coincidence?

Frodo cannot control his hand, yet he can ask for help in stopping it.
S. What does Sam do at this point that Frodo cannot do?

T. Why does Sam address himself by his full name when the “thought comes to him” that Sauron has seen Frodo and the Ring?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Gollum the Great
Nargothrond


Aug 31 2011, 5:54pm

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Sam's way of carrying Frodo always looked really clumsy and awkward to me. Why didn't he carry him like he does in the book?

As you noted in point G, I've always thought, "well duh, of course Frodo isn't hard to carry, he's hardly eaten anything for a week!" But also, I wouldn't be surprised if Sam was given extra strength. Goodness knows, he deserved it!

I don't think the ring would have affected Sam. It wasn't his burden, it was Frodo's. But then I'm not really sure if that was how it worked, so I don't really know why Sam didn't feel the weight.

As a final thought, why oh why did the R-B film give Sam such a potato nose?!

Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum!


Darkstone
Elvenhome


Sep 1 2011, 9:27pm

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A. What does “tired but lighter” mean?

Clearer headed. Exhaustion can make you fuzz up mentally, but an inner acceptance of destiny can make things easier. "Insha'Allah".

"And never say of anything, 'I shall do such and such thing tomorrow.’ Except with the saying: 'If God wills!'”
-The Holy Quran, Surat Al Kahf, 18:23-24


His will was set, and only death would break it. By my count, the word “will”, meaning the hobbits’ will to push on with their quest despite all obstacles and difficulties, is invoked 12 times in this chapter.
B. Is Tolkien consciously or unconsciously propounding the early-20th century philosophy that life is an unrelenting struggle for domination in which the individual can (or must) overcome internal and external obstacles through sheer determination – most famously expressed by Nietzsche with his "der Wille zur Macht”, or Will to Power?


I take it more as proof of the working of the human (hobbit) soul. Rational volition, the faculty of choice, is what freedom is all about.

From The Matrix Revolutions (2003):

“Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?”

“Because I choose to.”


He felt no longer either desire or need of sleep, but rather of watchfulness.
C. Um, not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but does this sentence actually make sense?


He feels a desire or need of watchfulness. He’s just waiting for the shoe to drop.


This passage emphasizes the end of Sam’s internal doubts and worries about how to proceed.
D. Is Sam experiencing a catharsis here, having paid penance through suffering?


He has made a voluntary submission of intellect and will.


E. In a deserted landscape, having left behind all apparent enemies, what “hazards or perils”, now “drawn together to the point” of the next day, does Sam anticipate?

"… you may find friends upon your way when you least look for it.”

Enemies too.


In an earlier passage that we did not examine, Sam did argue to himself that he would carry Frodo if necessary: “I’ll carry Mr. Frodo up myself, if it breaks my back and heart.”
E. Was Sam literally anticipating the solution he now adopts, or was he just being figurative and only now realizes that there is no other way?


Yes.


F. Does this scene invoke pathos, or bathos? That is, does it appeal to the reader’s imaginative sympathies or does its incongruity render the moment ludicrous?

I suppose anyone who has not had to perform a fireman’s carry might find it ludicrous.

BTW, Sam is carrying Frodo in a “saddleback” carry, which can only be done with someone conscious since they must be able to hang onto the carrier’s neck.

Note that the “saddleback” is not quite as fast as a fireman’s carry.

Also note that in Jackson's film Frodo is kind of out of it so indeed a fireman's carry is better in that case than a saddleback.


Tolkien proposes that Frodo does not weigh much in Sam’s arms either because Frodo has lost weight through his long emotional suffering, or because Sam has received a gift of “final strength”.
G. Why not because Frodo is nearly starved to death?


I suppose because since both are nearly starved to death that’s canceled out.


H. Given that both explanations are fantastic, which one do you think Tolkien favors?

I note that later Frodo will receive a gift of “final strength” in his run to the door of Oroduin. Some find that fantastic, as others do the same sequence in the film.


Which one do you favor?

Final strength. Because, unless you’re dead, there’s always going to be just a little bit left. That's what running on empty is all about.


I. Why does Sam not feel the weight of the Ring, as he had feared?

Frodo is carrying it.


J. If until now it could be argued that Sam’s emotional relationship to Frodo was more “wife” than lover, what does it mean that he is now apparently Frodo’s “dad”, not “mom”?

"If all men were brothers would you let one marry your sister?"
-John Brunner, Stand on Zanzibar


K. Where else in the story are we asked to imagine hobbit parents playing games with their children?

I bet they never played Marco-Polo.

I do note in Jackson's film the more sadistic ones encouraged their children to play "chase the incandescently hot butterflies".

I also note that "snapdragon", another game involving children and third degree burns, was mentioned in Tolkien's 1927 Father Christmas letter.


L. Why does the narrator give a voice and words to the “sense of urgency” that Sam and Frodo suddenly feel?

So we feel it too.


The shadows that have hidden the Dark Tower are here identified as “mantling clouds”, even though they move aside either because of a wind or because of Sauron’s conflicted mood. This theme of shadows with a kind of physicality recurs throughout the book.
M. Is there any way to decipher the idea of shadows that have a life of their own?


Shadows do not have a life of their own. They are merely manifestations of something else. In this case it is Evil, which Tolkien really didn’t seem that interested in exploring. Thus, a shadow is good enough for his purposes.


What do you see in your head when you read such descriptions?

Thanks to HP Lovecraft, an Eldritch Abomination. Lots of eyes and tentacles.


Barad-dûr is described as having a “topmost tower” with “cruel pinnacles and iron crown”.
N. From this description, is the Dark Tower a primarily vertical construction like a skyscraper (as the New Line films so strongly portrayed it)? Or is it more block-like and mountainous, as Tolkien actually once illustrated it?


Block-like and mountainous with a vertical construction like a skyscraper.


O. What place does “iron” have in the symbolic dictionary of The Lord of the Rings?

We’re getting back to Charles Spurgeon and the Book of Jeremiah again.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=372483#372483

I avoided him and I suggest you do the same as well.


P. From this description, should we understand that Sauron actually sits at a large window in his top tower, looking out over Middle-earth and seeing things with his “eye”?

I suppose he has a sort of squint, like Popeye.

Popeye the Sailor versus Eärendil the Mariner would be an interesting entry in the Arena. I’ll do it!


The “flicker of red” from Sauron’s eye “stabs northward”, not west to Frodo.
Q. Does that mean it has directionality, like a visible beam of some kind?


This is such silly imagery. Obviously Peter Jackson has indeed snuck into all our libraries and bookstores and our own dens and deliberately ruined the book!!!


R. Does the reminder that at this moment, the attack on the Captains of the West at the Morannon is proceeding, help or hurt the drama by highlighting an unlikely coincidence?

There are no coincidences, padawan, only the Blessings of Eru.


Frodo cannot control his hand, yet he can ask for help in stopping it.

I’ve had a friend help me with that problem before, only it was the shakes.


S. What does Sam do at this point that Frodo cannot do?

Act without the baggage.


T. Why does Sam address himself by his full name when the “thought comes to him” that Sauron has seen Frodo and the Ring?

“All right, time's up, let's do this! LEEROOOOOOY!!! JEEEENKIIIINSS!!!”

******************************************
How many months to Hobbiton?
Six and ten.
Can I get there by candle-light?
Yes, there and back again.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 1 2011, 9:32pm)


sador
Gondolin


Sep 4 2011, 4:36pm

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A. What does “tired but lighter” mean?
Like Gandalf returning to life atop Celebdil.

B. Is Tolkien consciously or unconsciously propounding the early-20th century philosophy that life is an unrelenting struggle for domination in which the individual can (or must) overcome internal and external obstacles through sheer determination – most famously expressed by Nietzsche with his "der Wille zur Macht”, or Will to Power?
It's the Theory of Courage.

Tolkien always resented insinuations that the two were one and the same.

C. Um, not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but does this sentence actually make sense?
Nice find!

D. Is Sam experiencing a catharsis here, having paid penance through suffering?
I wouldn't say so. Not yet.

E. In a deserted landscape, having left behind all apparent enemies, what “hazards or perils”, now “drawn together to the point” of the next day, does Sam anticipate?
Mount Doom was compared to a beast in the previous chapter. Beasts are dangerous.

E. Was Sam literally anticipating the solution he now adopts, or was he just being figurative and only now realizes that there is no other way?
I think he was figurative back then.

F. Does this scene invoke pathos, or bathos? That is, does it appeal to the reader’s imaginative sympathies or does its incongruity render the moment ludicrous?
This reader sympathised.

G. Why not because Frodo is nearly starved to death?
As Darkstone said, so is Sam.

H. Given that both explanations are fantastic, which one do you think Tolkien favors? Which one do you favor?
Tolkien leaves it open.

I. Why does Sam not feel the weight of the Ring, as he had feared?
It's weight is mental.
And as I said in the previous thread, the Ring was not calling to him.

J. If until now it could be argued that Sam’s emotional relationship to Frodo was more “wife” than lover, what does it mean that he is now apparently Frodo’s “dad”, not “mom”?
Pardon moi?

K. Where else in the story are we asked to imagine hobbit parents playing games with their children?
I don't quite remember.

There was of course Gollum, teaching his grandmother to suck eggs.

L. Why does the narrator give a voice and words to the “sense of urgency” that Sam and Frodo suddenly feel?
That's how people feel this sudden urgency - as if they are called from outside.

M. Is there any way to decipher the idea of shadows that have a life of their own?
That's a major theme of evil in Tolkien, isn't it? Sauron, the Ringwraithes - even the Balrog!

What do you see in your head when you read such descriptions?
I don't.

N. From this description, is the Dark Tower a primarily vertical construction like a skyscraper (as the New Line films so strongly portrayed it)? Or is it more block-like and mountainous, as Tolkien actually once illustrated it?
After the crazy leaning backwards tower of Cirith Ungol, I do not know what to say.

O. What place does “iron” have in the symbolic dictionary of The Lord of the Rings?
The attentive reader will remember the Iron Crown of the Great Enemy.

P. From this description, should we understand that Sauron actually sits at a large window in his top tower, looking out over Middle-earth and seeing things with his “eye”?
It sure reads so.

Q. Does that mean it has directionality, like a visible beam of some kind?
It could be that Frodo has grown more perceptive.
But this chapter is told through Sam's eyes, so I'm not sure.

R. Does the reminder that at this moment, the attack on the Captains of the West at the Morannon is proceeding, help or hurt the drama by highlighting an unlikely coincidence?
Why unlikely?

But yes, it helps; it shows that Gandalf has actually managed to help Frodo a lot.

S. What does Sam do at this point that Frodo cannot do?
Move.

T. Why does Sam address himself by his full name when the “thought comes to him” that Sauron has seen Frodo and the Ring?
He's belittling himself.


"Why do you think the Ring doesn't fully take over Frodo until this moment? Might it have something to do with being in the place where the Ring was forged?"
- Elenedhel


The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for Mount Doom!



FarFromHome
Doriath


Sep 7 2011, 9:49am

Post #5 of 8 (5857 views)
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A. What does “tired but lighter” mean?

Physically tired, but without the mental weight of worry and confusion he had felt before ("his head seemed clear again").

B. Is Tolkien consciously or unconsciously propounding the early-20th century philosophy that life is an unrelenting struggle for domination in which the individual can (or must) overcome internal and external obstacles through sheer determination – most famously expressed by Nietzsche with his "der Wille zur Macht”, or Will to Power?

No, I think he's propounding (
"unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision") the Catholic doctrine of resisting the wiles and temptations of Satan.


Quote
He felt no longer either desire or need of sleep, but rather of watchfulness.
C. Um, not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but does this sentence actually make sense?

It works for me. Tolkien's grammar is actually quite German sometimes Tongue in that it would be much easier to follow in an inflected language like German where you can see where each word fits into the overall structure. This sentence is elliptical, and could be written out as: "He felt no longer either desire or need of sleep, but rather [=instead] he felt the need of watchfulness." Clumsy indeed - Tolkien's version is at least much tighter, if not more comprehensible!

(I love that clip you linked to, the world's best rant! Ironically, in German it's not only correct but almost obligatory to end a sentence with a preposition. Cool)

D. Is Sam experiencing a catharsis here, having paid penance through suffering?

I think it's more that he's been tested and knows he has passed the test ("He knew all the arguments of despair and would not listen to them.")

E. In a deserted landscape, having left behind all apparent enemies, what “hazards or perils”, now “drawn together to the point” of the next day, does Sam anticipate?

I think of the point as the top of the mountain. It's make or break time.

E. Was Sam literally anticipating the solution he now adopts, or was he just being figurative and only now realizes that there is no other way?

Maybe it's a bit like Tolkien's compositional style - his ideas float around at first, then gel when he sees how they can work. (Note that Pippin also wishes he could carry Merry, after the Pelennor - the idea has been set up that a hobbit wouldn't normally think they were strong enough to carry another. Only at this last extreme does it occur to Sam to actually try it.)

F. Does this scene invoke pathos, or bathos? That is, does it appeal to the reader’s imaginative sympathies or does its incongruity render the moment ludicrous?

I think Tolkien often deliberately adds a touch of bathos to his hobbit-heroism scenes. A couple more that strike me that way are Sam's near-drowning as he tries and fails to jump into Frodo's departing boat, and his foolish attempt to climb down the Emyn Muil. Hobbits aren't natural heroes, and there's something a little ludicrous about seeing them try. It's seeing beyond the bathos that makes the scenes moving, I find.


Quote
Tolkien proposes that Frodo does not weigh much in Sam’s arms either because Frodo has lost weight through his long emotional suffering, or because Sam has received a gift of “final strength”.
G. Why not because Frodo is nearly starved to death?

As others have said, they're equally starved. I think it's well documented that when people (or animals) are in a desperate situation they can sometimes find a last burst of strength.

H. Given that both explanations are fantastic, which one do you think Tolkien favors? Which one do you favor?

I don't find it fantastic. I favour the explanation that it's a natural psychological response. Tolkien probably favours the explanation that grace is given in extremis.

I. Why does Sam not feel the weight of the Ring, as he had feared?

It's not his burden. As Frodo said a little earlier, "It is my burden, and no one else can bear it."


J. If until now it could be argued that Sam’s emotional relationship to Frodo was more “wife” than lover, what does it mean that he is now apparently Frodo’s “dad”, not “mom”?

Never heard of the "wife" relationship in this context before. The distinction between "wife" and "lover" says a lot about conjugal expectations, doesn't it? Crazy

I've always tended to think of reciprocal parental relationships between the two of them - Frodo "fathers" Sam (with advice and encouragement), Sam "mothers" Frodo (with food and care). Maybe as time has gone on, Sam has become both parents, and the ever more helpless Frodo has become the child.

K. Where else in the story are we asked to imagine hobbit parents playing games with their children?

I remember a bit at the Party where hobbit parents are keen to get free food for their kids. And Sam imagines a dad reading to his kids, on the Stairs.

L. Why does the narrator give a voice and words to the “sense of urgency” that Sam and Frodo suddenly feel?

I believe it will be suggested later that Gandalf was communicating this sense of urgency to them. We are only told that Sam hears the words, "almost" as if he had been called. Tolkien never spells things out - there's always room for the imagination.

M. Is there any way to decipher the idea of shadows that have a life of their own? What do you see in your head when you read such descriptions?

Shades (sorry!) of Owen Barfield. The idea that the "real" and the "metaphorical" were not only inseparable but were one and the same in the imagination of early men. Inanimate things had life and volition - not "were imagined" to have life, but in that worldview just did, without any need to question.

N. From this description, is the Dark Tower a primarily vertical construction like a skyscraper (as the New Line films so strongly portrayed it)? Or is it more block-like and mountainous, as Tolkien actually once illustrated it?

In my imagination I've always seen all the towers as less baroque and more blocky and "mountain-like" than the ones that Tolkien illustrators (and hence Peter Jackson) tend to favour.

O. What place does “iron” have in the symbolic dictionary of The Lord of the Rings?

The Iron Crown says it all. It's often set up in contrast to gold and silver, the metals of the good guys. Iron is utilitarian, unlovely - and the base material of the industrial age.

P. From this description, should we understand that Sauron actually sits at a large window in his top tower, looking out over Middle-earth and seeing things with his “eye”?

I think it's hinted that Sauron sits in his tower with his palantir. It echoes rather closely the lights that come from Denethor's tower when he does the same. I recall earlier that when I talked about direct lines of sight as being relevant to the Eye and to the use of a palantir, you pointed out that that's not the case. Yet here and in other places, it's clear that the Eye and/or the palantir are in a "topmost tower" as if direct line of sight is important. Whatever Tolkien may have rationalised, it seems that the idea of line of sight is part of the effect he wants to create.


Quote
The “flicker of red” from Sauron’s eye “stabs northward”, not west to Frodo.
Q. Does that mean it has directionality, like a visible beam of some kind?

Yes, this is precisely the moment where the metaphor becomes real, leaving Peter Jackson with no better solution than the visible projection of the Eye on the top of the tower, that could turn to show where Sauron's gaze was focused.

R. Does the reminder that at this moment, the attack on the Captains of the West at the Morannon is proceeding, help or hurt the drama by highlighting an unlikely coincidence?

Well, as we'll hear in the next chapter it wasn't completely a coincidence - Gandalf had a hand in it! The whole point of the attack, of course, was to allow the destruction of the Ring to happen, so it's more like unbelievably good timing than an actual coincidence. But that's where the eucatastrophe comes from - like the last minute Hail Mary pass that wins the Superbowl.


Quote
Frodo cannot control his hand, yet he can ask for help in stopping it.
S. What does Sam do at this point that Frodo cannot do?

The struggle for Frodo's will continues. He still has control of his mind and voice, but his hand will no longer obey him. Sam is able to control the hand that Frodo cannot. (I always think that these moments hint at what might have happened if Gollum hadn't intervened - Frodo still has enough will to ask for Sam's help, and perhaps together they could have destroyed the Ring. But in doing so, they would probably have died - Gollum's fateful role may have been not so much in destroying the Ring as in saving the hobbits.)

T. Why does Sam address himself by his full name when the “thought comes to him” that Sauron has seen Frodo and the Ring?

He always talks to or about himself that way:
"I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon; and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they’ll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said." (Three's Company)

"I said to myself: 'dreaming again, Sam Gamgee,' I said." (The Great River)

"Plain as a pikestaff it is, but it’s no good Sam Gamgee putting in his spoke just now." (The Breaking of the Fellowship)

"'Whoa, Sam Gamgee!' he said aloud. 'Your legs are too short, so use your head!'" (ibid)
And one last one, although I'm sure there's more:
"You’re nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee!"
I've always imagined it as Sam channelling the Gaffer, who probably addressed him that way when he had something serious to say - he's telling himself off, or generally reminding himself of his place and duty in the world. Sam has a strong sense of who and what he is, which is one of the things that gets him through.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Gondolin


Sep 7 2011, 1:21pm

Post #6 of 8 (5805 views)
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A couple stabs [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't add anything to the excellent answers others have given, just a couple points of my own.

1. Sam carrying Frodo: I've always taken this to mean that Frodo was starving to death, and losing more weight than Sam because Frodo's struggle with the Ring is making him waste away physically, not just spiritually.

2. The Ring should have made Frodo a burden to carry, or I think so. Yet in this last climactic struggle, I do think there's divine intervention at work. That sense of urgency that they feel in their gut, simultaneously and without talking about it, I take as a message from the Valar/Illuvatar that it's now or never. And I think that Sam is given some divine strength to carry Frodo. The Valar are notorious for getting involved only at the very end of things, so that's what they're doing now. Why not give it to Frodo too? I'd say that just as Galadriel's Phial was of no use in Mount Doom, there may be some Sauron and Ring influence interfering with Valar power to help Frodo, other than the wonderful dreams he's having.

3. Oh, I just hated the "eye" of Sauron in the movies. It seemed plain silly and wasn't at all scary to me, which I think it was supposed to be. Maybe it scared others. And it didn't stay true to the book in that Gollum, tortured in the presence of Sauron, commented that Sauron only had four fingers on one hand. So Sauron has hands that are visible to mortals, not just an eye. (His Mouth is mobile, and I still don't want to think about other body parts that Darkstone made me think about.)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 8 2011, 1:40am

Post #7 of 8 (5835 views)
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"Can you feel it, Mr. Baggins? Closing in on you?" [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an interesting reference to the game of snapdragon, which involves plucking raisins or other fruits out of a flat bowl of burning brandy. (What were parents thinking back then?)

In a way, Frodo has been tasked to play a reverse snapdragon, in which he must "pluck" - or "plink"? - the Ring back into the burning pot - or pit...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 8 2011, 2:07am

Post #8 of 8 (5921 views)
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Sucking eggses [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to come up with parent-child interactions, and that's one that escaped me completely! Although not exactly "playing", it would be a bonding activity between Smeagol and his grandmother.

The only moments I could find were Fatty Bolger at Crickhollow talking about tales told to children, and Theoden doing the same regarding tales of the Ents. Then there was Bilbo "learning" Sam his letters. But these all seem so "academic", no physical play involved.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915



 
 
 

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