Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
**LotR I.7 – In the House of Tom Bombadil** 5. Fire, sun and moon
 

squire
Gondolin


Jan 31 2015, 7:18pm

Post #1 of 11 (8225 views)
Shortcut
**LotR I.7 – In the House of Tom Bombadil** 5. Fire, sun and moon Can't Post

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!


Here’s the same verse we inspected in the last post – but look at the third line now, not the second. Having considered the (relatively) earthy realities of Tom’s world – Water, Wood, and Hill – today I want to expand a bit and think about the more ephemeral themes in this chapter, such as Light, Time, and Weather. Are they, too, unlike these phenomena as we experience them in our own lives? Are they like, or even unlike, the way they are experienced in the rest of The Lord of the Rings?

Light

As with so much else about this directly sequential chapter, the idea of light in Tom Bombadil’s world is introduced at the end of the previous chapter.
In the darkness they caught the white glimmer of foam, where the river flowed over a short fall. … Suddenly a wide yellow beam flowed out brightly from a door that was opened. … the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was all about them. LotR I.6

A. What imagery do we associate with a “wide yellow beam” of light coming from a door, or with “a golden light” that surrounds a party on a threshold?


Goldberry in the candlelit room

In reading this chapter, I can’t help but notice that candles and lamps are more present than in most other parts of the book. Let me review the importance of candle-light (bold emphases by squire):

1) The hobbits enter the front room at the beginning of the chapter. It’s night time, and this is the golden light that they saw emitting from the door.
They were in a long low room, filled with the light of lamps swinging from the beams of the roof; and on the table of dark polished wood stood many candles, tall and yellow, burning brightly.

2) After the first supper is cleared away.
When everything was set in order, all the lights in the room were put out, except one lamp and a pair of candles at each end of the chimney-shelf. Then Goldberry came and stood before them, holding a candle; and she wished them each a good night and deep sleep.

3) After Goldberry retires, they talk briefly with Tom, but he refuses to upset them with the story of the Willow.
‘Some things are ill to hear when the world’s in shadow. Sleep till the morning-light, rest on the pillow! Heed no nightly noise! Fear no grey willow!’ And with that he took down the lamp and blew it out, and grasping a candle in either hand he led them out of the room.

4) The next morning is rainy, and they (or Tom) talks right through the day until after dark.
A shadow seemed to pass by the window, and the hobbits glanced hastily through the panes. When they turned again, Goldberry stood in the door behind, framed in light. She held a candle, shielding its flame from the draught with her hand; and the light flowed through it, like sunlight through a white shell.

5) Goldberry suggests they take a break. Tom calls dinner-time.
With that he jumped out of his chair, and with a bound took a candle from the chimney-shelf and lit it in the flame that Goldberry held; then he danced about the table. … and with great speed food and vessels and lights were set in order. The boards blazed with candles, white and yellow.

6) After supper they talk some more about the Shire, and the Ring.
Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight.

7) Then Tom prepares them for the next day.
When they had sung this altogether after him, he clapped them each on the shoulder with a laugh, and taking candles led them back to their bedroom.

B. Where else in the story is there such a continuing emphasis on the actual mode of lighting a room after dark?

At one point we see that candles are not the only light in Tom’s house.
C. What fuels the lamps in the room that swing from the roof-beams?

D. How are lamps different from candles both as a practical and a symbolic way to light a room?

At some points there are “many” or even a “blaze” of candles; at other points there are only one or two lit in the entire room.
E. Do these candles describe themselves – that is, why don’t we read how the hobbits’ experience the light, shadow, smell, heat, or movement of many hours spent in the house lit entirely by candle-light?


Two paintings by Godfried Schalcken, (Dutch, late 1600s). He was a master at rendering candle light

F. How literally should we take the image of candle-light shining whitely through Goldberry’s hand?

There is a fire burning in the hearth throughout the story. We are told it smells of apple-wood.
G. Why is the woodfire’s light never mentioned as contributing to the atmosphere?

During blackouts due to storms, I’ve used candles to light my house. I’ve never used any kind of oil lamp.
H. Have you, and if so, how is candle-light or lamp-light different from electric light?

I. Are these candles the fire in “By fire, sun and moon” in Tom’s incantatory verse, or if not, what is?

Aside from the light of candles (and lamps), there are a few other references to light in this chapter. (again, bolds by squire)
… closing the door she turned her back to it, with her white arms spread out across it. ‘Let us shut out the night!’ she said.

‘No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow.’

‘Have peace now,’ she said, ‘until the morning! Heed no nightly noises! For nothing passes door and window here save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top. Good night!’

They woke up, all four at once, in the morning light. …. It was a pale morning: in the East, behind long clouds like lines of soiled wool stained red at the edges, lay glimmering deeps of yellow. The sky spoke of rain to come; but the light was broadening quickly, and the red flowers on the beans began to glow against the wet green leaves.

‘Sun won’t show her face much today. I’m thinking. I have been walking wide, leaping on the hilltops, since the grey dawn began, …. In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after light has come!

Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. …’ Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight.

…and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, … and it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, … the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars. … The stars shone through the window and the silence of the heavens seemed to be round him.

‘He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’
Tom now told them that he reckoned the Sun would shine tomorrow, and it would be a glad morning, and setting out would be hopeful.

Between the nights and the rainy day, there is literally no sunlight for this entire chapter; in its two mentions, it is characterized by the color red.
J. Is the sun’s absence from the chapter a good or a bad thing?

The long day of story-telling is opened with descriptions of ‘gray’ or ‘pale’ light, but after that the light in the room, or outside, is never described.
K. With so much emphasis on the use of candle light after dark, why no feeling for how Tom’s house is lit during the day, whether sunny or rainy?

On the one hand, starlight (and moonlight) are said to be welcome in the house; on the other hand the candles are used intensively against the dark of the night. Both sun and moon are given ominous undertones in the passage about the barrow-downs. Tom summons in his stories the time before the sun and moon, when stars were the only light in Middle-earth; but he also reminds us that the stars are a consequence of the fear of the Dark Lord, and that black night was once fearless.
L. Why does Tom not tell us about the Two Trees of silver and gold light from the Elder Days?

M. In the incantation, is “By fire, sun and moon” a positive or negative part of the spell?

Time

The outlines of the passage of time in this chapter are pretty clear, as described above: The hobbits arrive after dark, eat dinner, talk a bit before the fire, and go to bed. At night three of them dream. The next morning Tom wakes them long after he and Goldberry have been up. They have breakfast on their own and then Tom spends the day with them, telling stories until nightfall. They have another dinner, Tom talks a bit more conversationally, Frodo and Tom interact over the Ring, and then he sends them to bed again.
N. Are there any breaks in the continuity of the narrative, in which time is unaccounted for?

By the end of the story-telling day, Frodo feels disoriented:
When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. Then suddenly he slopped, and they saw that he nodded as if he was falling asleep. The hobbits sat still before him, enchanted; and it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars.
Whether the morning and evening of one day or of many days had passed Frodo could not tell. He did not feel either hungry or tired, only filled with wonder. The stars shone through the window and the silence of the heavens seemed to be round him. He spoke at last out of his wonder and a sudden fear of that silence:
‘Who are you, Master?’ he asked.

As Tom answers, Goldberry appears carrying a candle; it is evidently dark out, and she says the rain has stopped. Tom calls dinner break.
O. How long did Tom tell stories – that is, from when to when or for how many hours?

P. Did the hobbits ever speak before Frodo asks Tom who he is?


Welsh mountains by starlight

When Tom appears to be falling asleep, the enchanted hobbits are said to imagine that “the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars.”
Q. But isn’t that exactly what has happened – that is, Frodo sits in wonder as the “stars shone through the window” and as we learn from Goldberry a minute later, isn’t it really dark out and hasn’t the rain actually stopped?

Frodo feels neither hungry nor tired and does not know how many days have passed since Tom began talking.
R. What is going on when we lose track of time due to absorption in some type of work or play: is time constant or variable?

Later in Rivendell and Lorien, Tolkien will present us with places where Time proceeds on an Elven scale and where mortals like the hobbits become confused as to when things have happened or how long they took to happen.
S. Is Tom’s House a similar place, or different in some way?

T. Does Tom live in the present time, as reckoned by the hobbits of the Shire, the Dunedain of the North, the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien, or the Ents of Fangorn Forest?

Weather


Rainy day in Somerset, England

The weather is the determining factor in the hobbits’ staying an extra day at Tom’s house:
Frodo was glad in his heart, and blessed the kindly weather, because it delayed them from departing. The thought of going had been heavy upon him from the moment he awoke; but he guessed now that they would not go further that day.

U. Was the rainy weather actually caused by Goldberry, to give the hobbits a chance to recover their courage and learn from Tom?

Tom says that his trip to get lilies for Goldberry was an annual ritual of his; the flowers were
the last ere the year’s end to keep them from the winter,
to flower by her pretty feet till the snows are melted.

V. Does it snow in Tom’s country, as opposed to the Shire where snow rarely falls?

Tom says the Willow is “cunning, and a master of winds,” but that he himself cannot predict or affect the weather:
for weather in that country was a thing that even Tom could not be sure of for long, and it would change sometimes quicker than he could change his jacket. ‘I am no weather-master,’ he said; ‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’

Yet some have suggested that the rain of this chapter is brought on by Goldberry as her “washing day”; in Lothlorien the company finds that although it is mid-winter in Middle-earth, “All the while that they dwelt there the sun shone clear, save for a gentle rain that fell at times”; and there is much in Books IV and VI to suggest that the Dark Lord summons the East Wind to drive the murk of Mt. Doom over the Western Lands.
W. Who is a weather-master in The Lord of the Rings?

Tom Bombadil came trotting round the corner of the house, waving his arms as if he was warding off the rain - and indeed when he sprang over the threshold he seemed quite dry, except for his boots.

X. How does this curious little vignette relate to Tom’s other apparent “powers” or perhaps “lack of powers”?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Brethil
Gondolin


Feb 1 2015, 2:47am

Post #2 of 11 (7844 views)
Shortcut
Some thoughts on Light [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Light
In reading this chapter, I can’t help but notice that candles and lamps are more present than in most other parts of the book.

I like the way you point this out, Squire. The use of the 'lamps' here is a reference I think a reader may only get in full if they have experienced the pre-history and early days of the Creation legends. I think in that case the love of the lamps rather date Tom and Goldberry to a time when Illuin and Ormal lit the primeval world. It seems to be a level of comfort to them, maybe a harkening back to a time before Melkor came 'from the Outside' (outside of the glow of the lights?) and destroyed the lamps.
But that is almost like a 'Tolkien-study' approach. On another level, the 'Tolkien-reader' approach leaves us with a vibe of warmth; but with a lack of joy from the Sun here the warmth comes from Tom and Goldberry's household itself, and is given by them to their guests.




Why does Tom not tell us about the Two Trees of silver and gold light from the Elder Days? They are not the youth of Tom, I think, and in the time where 'youthful' first memories are treasured. Tom's youth predates those things I think.




J. Is the sun’s absence from the chapter a good or a bad thing? I think it may not be either good nor bad, but a further concentrating of the sense that Tom and Goldberry are an island to themselves in every way - and as I said above, supply the warmth and the light that is to be found. A bastion of benign will that predates the Sun, for it does not seem to rule their day as it does the days of others.




F. How literally should we take the image of candle-light shining whitely through Goldberry’s hand? It reminds me of the star shining through Galadriel's hand in Lorien, and seen by Sam; something powerful unseen and yet the light itself is perceived.




During blackouts due to storms, I’ve used candles to light my house. I’ve never used any kind of oil lamp.
H. Have you, and if so, how is candle-light or lamp-light different from electric light?
Its a more sustained, warmer light I should say. Of course it also implies tending: an oil lamp needs wick trimming, refilling, proper air flow. Electric light provides the whitest light and as a cultural point it is unthinking. It requires no attention. A lamp compared to electricity is like a living thing versus an inanimate object.




I. Are these candles the fire in “By fire, sun and moon” in Tom’s incantatory verse, or if not, what is? I think the incantation is interesting in that it incorporates the Sun and Moon, where previously in Tom's world those seem absent, and I can trace a rationale for that perhaps to the primeval recall. Yet when gifting the incantation to mortals - maybe that is the sign from Tom that this is how they will call him in their larger world.


M. In the incantation, is “By fire, sun and moon” a positive or negative part of the spell?
The listing of elements seem to be in declining closeness to Tom himself; yet are they describing all the places that Tom can hold sway or draw strength from? In that case the water and the love of Goldberry seems to be the first and strongest...followed all the way down until at the bottom we have the things WE often draw from, fire and the visible Sun and Moon. Maybe not negative, but not the first bastion of things that Tom loves perhaps.


More on Weather soon! Thank you again Squire!












noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 1 2015, 1:25pm

Post #3 of 11 (7824 views)
Shortcut
lights, stories and inaction [In reply to] Can't Post

Lights

The candles seem to me both to be a natural choice for light, but I think there is more than that to them.

The practical point - Lamps require oil, and oil requires at least some machinery for extracting oil from seeds or fruits (or clarifying butter etc.). The shortcomings of these methods were enough historically to launch first the whaling industry and then the petrochemical industry. Candles, by contrast are something you could make much more self-sufficiently, with by-products: beeswax from your bee-keeping or with tallow from the slaughterhouse.

The putting out of unnecessary candles, and the lighting of one from another could similarly be seen as purely practical - if you have to make your own candles, or get them a bit laboriously you're not going to waste them.

Come to think of it, Tom & Goldberry are burning through a lot of cash with their candles and lamps (compare the Maggot, family who mostly go to bed with the Sun.). They must be pretty high on the hog. Hmm - might Tolkien be working from some memories of this...


A Formal Dinner at an Oxford or Cambridge College - at some point in the past those electric table lamps would have been candles... http://www.ted.com/..._on_flow?language=en
I wonder whether this is a thought about storytelling: Tolkien's ideas from "On Fairy Stories" about stories that one can enter into completely - for a time.

Perhaps, if Terazed is right about Tom and Goldberry being innocent, pre-Fall creatures, they are in this Flow state a lot of the time

Weather
My guess is that the rainy day is something Goldberry is doing anyway (or something that is happening anyway that Goldberry is taking advantage of..). Or, of course, it could be done a-purpose to confine the hobbits. If the hobbits need to stay and learn something from Tom, it escapes me what it is!

I suggested earlier that Tolkien might have had a prosaic reason to delay the hobbits (at one point he wanted them to be 3 days late for a rendezvous with Gandalf http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=831254#831254. But I'm not at all sure that's right. Perhaps being blissed out on pure storytelling is a non prosaic (or "prozac"?) reason?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Terazed
Nevrast

Feb 1 2015, 3:02pm

Post #4 of 11 (7831 views)
Shortcut
Pure light and light through haze, fog, and smoke [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing that strikes me is that all of the light in and around Tom's house is pure light, eiher sunlight and starlight. Both before the hobbits arrive and after they leave any view they have is limited by hazes and fogs. In particular the forest where Tom lives is described both before and after as if is it covered with a smoke which I find as a very peculiar description. Yet when they arrive at Tom's the mists are left behind and they see everything clearly by starlight. When they leave they have a clear sky "cool, bright, and clean under a washed autumn sky". They can see the whole land absolutely clearly. As they depart the mists, fogs, haze, and smokes return and they do not see clearly again until the emerge from the barrow.

I think that it is a metaphor that Tom's and Golderry's experience of the world is closer to the truth then anyone else's. The rest of the world is concerned with rings, power, ownership, good, and evil and are blinded to the simple reality of nature that Tom and Goldberry represent.

I wonder if the reason why Tom discusses the world on a rainy day covered with clouds is that somehow stories of the deeds of men is less pure and true.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 1 2015, 4:54pm

Post #5 of 11 (7796 views)
Shortcut
oops, sorry- part of my post was missing [In reply to] Can't Post

(I posted in a hurry & went off, & have only just realised that there's a missing bit)

I meant to suggest that, magic apart, the hobbits seem to be in the mental state of "flow": an intense and ecstatic mental state people get into when completely absorbed in what they're doing. The link to the TED talk was a reference for that.

My thought was then- is this a passage about the power of storytelling?

Sorry I bungled it, I hope I've not left anyone too confused.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 1 2015, 4:55pm)


a.s.
Doriath


Feb 2 2015, 1:21am

Post #6 of 11 (7798 views)
Shortcut
light on the threshold [In reply to] Can't Post



Quote
What imagery do we associate with a “wide yellow beam” of light coming from a door, or with “a golden light” that surrounds a party on a threshold?





I'm not sure exactly what you might be referring to. I think immediately of the two most frequent images of my childhood made by "parties on a threshold" and that would be Jesus and the Blessed Mother on the threshold between Earth and Heaven, in the Ascension and the Assumption respectively. That threshold is usually depicted in images by shining yellow sunlight:









But then, I also think a yellow light shining in from the threshold of a shelter amid the darkness of night in the wild world is a potent symbol of safety and security, home and hearth.










Quote
Where else in the story is there such a continuing emphasis on the actual mode of lighting a room after dark?





In Rivendell, in the Hall of Fire, where there is always a great fire burning, no matter the season--but "there is little other light".



Quote
F. How literally should we take the image of candle-light shining whitely through Goldberry’s hand?





I think it's a literal description, and yet we see this same motif again in light shining through a hand in the darkness: in Shelob's Lair, when Sam wishes Tom was near and "it seemed to him that he saw a light: a light in his mind, almost unbearably bright at first, as a sun-ray to the eye of one long hidden in a windowless pit. Then the light became colour: green, gold, sliver, white..." and of course, that was a vision of Galadriel and her phial, which Frodo will then hold aloft in his hand, his candle in the darkness.


But the vision came about by thinking of Tom.


a.s.


"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



squire
Gondolin


Feb 3 2015, 2:39am

Post #7 of 11 (7887 views)
Shortcut
**LotR I.7 – In the House of Tom Bombadil** 6. Harken now and hear us! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, folks, I apologize for the lateness of my discussion this week, and so as not to tread on DanielLB’s week I’m posting this as a reply within my previous post.

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!


This is the last post of our discussion of this chapter. I want to leave Tom’s house, Tom himself and his consort Goldberry, the world of Tom’s land, and even the physical world of Middle-earth. Now let’s enter the story-world that Tom creates within his world – and the dream-world that Tolkien creates within his.

Dreams

As odd as is the experience of almost being eaten by a tree, and then being saved by a singing clown, the hobbits and we are never led to doubt that what they have experienced is ‘real’. It was not “all a dream”, as the cliché goes. The proof is, it turns out, that Frodo, Pippin, and Merry have some pretty intense actual dreams – visions experienced during sleep that seem real at the time – during their first night at Tom’s house.

Start with Frodo, as the story does:
In the dead night, Frodo lay in a dream without light. Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock, pierced by a dark arch like a great gate. It seemed to Frodo that he was lifted up, and passing over he saw that the rock-wall was a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man. The moon as it rose seemed to hang for a moment above his head and glistened in his white hair as the wind stirred it. Up from the dark plain below came the crying of fell voices, and the howling of many wolves. Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away. The voices wailed and the wolves yammered. There was a noise like a strong wind blowing, and on it was borne the sound of hoofs, galloping, galloping, galloping from the East. ‘Black Riders!’ thought Frodo as he wakened, with the sound of the hoofs still echoing in his mind. He wondered if he would ever again have the courage to leave the safety of these stone walls. He lay motionless, still listening; but all was now silent, and at last he turned and fell asleep again or wandered into some other unremembered dream.

The dream is so powerful that Frodo retains it after he wakes – a rare event, as dreamers know.
They leapt up refreshed. Frodo ran to the eastern window, and found himself looking into a kitchen-garden grey with dew. He had half expected to see turf right up to the walls, turf all pocked with hoof-prints.

A. What is happening in the scene that Frodo dreams about, and how does it compare with the actual event, as we later learn at the Council of Elrond?


Gandalf escapes from Orthanc, by Ted Nasmith

B. Are the hoof-beats that Frodo hears those of Gandalf on Shadowfax, or the Black Riders as he thinks?

C. When he wakes from the dream, what “nightly noises” does he hear that Tom and Goldberry have told him to ignore?

D. When Frodo looks out the window for signs of the horses he heard in his dream, but which he didn’t hear when awake, why does he “half expect” to see them?

This dream comes to Frodo just one night after the one he had at Crickhollow, two chapters earlier.
E. How do the two dreams compare, in the context of the story and as written by an author?

Some critics have identified this dream as an example of Tolkien exploring how to represent Time Travel, a subject he was very interested in.
F. Is that what’s going on here?

Now we are told about Pippin’s dream:
At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned. Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: “tip-tap, squeak”: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: “creak, creak, creak.” He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again. He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved. He seemed to hear the echo of words in his ears: ‘Fear nothing! Have peace until the morning! Heed no nightly noises!’ Then he went to sleep again.

Just as Frodo does, Pippin carries his dream with him when he wakes in the morning. He looks out the window and sees:
Near at hand was a flower-garden and a clipped hedge silver-netted, and beyond that grey shaven grass pale with dew-drops. There was no willow-tree to be seen.

G. Why mention that Pippin was “dreaming pleasantly”?

As the passage reminds us, the hobbits were twice told to “heed no nightly noises”.
H. Is Pippin awake, or dreaming, when he hears the branches against the outside of the house, and when he feels he is inside the Willow?


From Fantasy Flight Games card image

I. How does this dream compare with Frodo’s two dreams (at Crickhollow and here at Tom’s), in its events and in its writing?

Then we read about Merry’s dream:
It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. ‘I shall be drowned!’ he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.’ He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his fool on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again. He seemed to hear or remember hearing: ‘Nothing passes doors or windows save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.’ A little breath of sweet air moved the curtain. He breathed deep and fell asleep again.

J. What in Merry’s experience explains this dream?


’Drowning’ by arkamustang

Merry senses the water is rising “slowly but surely… ‘and then I shall drown.’”
K. Where else in the story does Merry react to a terrifying situation in this way?

L. Why is Merry comforted not by the “nightly noises” reassurance of his hosts, but by their statement of the house’s invulnerability?

M. What are the differences in the way the three hobbits recover their sense of waking reality?

As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented.

N. Did Sam not dream, or did he not remember dreaming?

In many ways, Frodo is the “dreaming hobbit” in the story.
O. Why do we hear about Merry and Pippin’s dreams here, as well as Frodo’s – but not Sam’s?

‘I wakened Goldberry singing under window; but nought wakes hobbit-folk in the early morning. In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after light has come! Ring a ding dillo! Wake now, my merry friends! Forget the nightly noises!’

P. How does Tom know what the hobbits’ night was like?

Stories

As others have noted in this discussion, the hobbits’ extra day at Bombadil’s is story-driven, in that there is no exterior part of the larger plot that would be affected by their staying one night, two, or three. In any case, they certainly spend a lot of time listening to Tom during the rainy day, never even pausing to speak, eat, or drink themselves.
Aside from the passages about the Willow and the Barrows, we are not told the lore that Tom dispenses but are given a general description of its scope and nature:
He then told them many remarkable stories, sometimes half as if speaking to himself, sometimes looking at them suddenly with a bright blue eye under his deep brows. Often his voice would turn to song, and he would get out of his chair and dance about. He told them tales of bees and flowers, the ways of trees, and the strange creatures of the Forest, about the evil things and good things, things friendly and things unfriendly, cruel things and kind things, and secrets hidden under brambles.

Q. What do the hobbits learn from Tom, in this inserted extra day, that has a demonstrated effect on their behavior later in the book?

R. How do Tom’s lessons differ from or resemble the lessons the hobbits learn from Gildor, Farmer Maggot, Strider, Butterbur, Elrond, or Bilbo?


Tom Bombadil by joaomachay

After the Willow, and the scary Barrow-downs, the hobbits lose track of Tom’s narrative but grab onto it again here:
When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. Then suddenly he slopped, and they saw that he nodded as if he was falling asleep. The hobbits sat still before him, enchanted; and it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars.

S. What is the connection between this passage, and others in the book where the stars are suddenly revealed from behind some dissolving veil?

T. How does Tom’s ability to tell stories in “song” format relate to other oral traditions, and to our present methods of writing history or science in formal prose, or of using pictures and audio-visual media?

Magic Tricks

On the second night, after dinner, comes perhaps the most remarkable moment in a chapter of remarkable things.
‘Show me the precious Ring!’ he said suddenly in the midst of the story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!
Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air - and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry - and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.

U. What is alarming, both now and in the context of the entire story, of the vision of Tom’s eye seen through the Ring?


Tom Bombadil, by Dan Govar

V. Why doesn’t Tom disappear?

W. Why does Tom smile as he hands the Ring back to Frodo?

For the first time since he has learned its true power and meaning in Chapter 2, Frodo puts on the Ring.
Frodo looked at it closely, and rather suspiciously (like one who has lent a trinket to a juggler). It was the same Ring, or looked the same and weighed the same: for that Ring had always seemed to Frodo to weigh strangely heavy in the hand. But something prompted him to make sure. He was perhaps a trifle annoyed with Tom for seeming to make so light of what even Gandalf thought so perilously important. He waited for an opportunity, when the talk was going again, and Tom was telling an absurd story about badgers and their queer ways - then he slipped the Ring on.
Merry turned towards him to say something and gave a start, and checked an exclamation. Frodo was delighted (in a way): it was his own ring all right, for Merry was staring blankly at his chair, and obviously could not see him. He got up and crept quietly away from the fireside towards the outer door.
‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. ‘Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand’s more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.’
Frodo laughed (trying to feel pleased), and taking off the Ring he came and sat down again.

Tom gives Frodo quite a tongue-lashing, it seems.
X. How does Tom’s speech to Frodo here compare to his general tone in this chapter?

As we discussed earlier, the Ring has had no presence in the Marish, Crickhollow, or the Old Forest parts of the story, that is, the previous two or three chapters. One might be justified in forgetting it was the driving element of the larger story. And this ‘juggler of cheap tricks’ episode (so to speak) has become a central part of the debate about Tom’s nature and power, particularly at the Council of Elrond.
Y. Why introduce the question of how Tom relates to the Ring?

Well, late as always, but here we are at the end of our discussion of Chapter 7, “In The House Of Tom Bombadil”. Thank you all for so many thoughtful, divergent, and even humorous answers!
One final question:
Z. How important to The Lord of the Rings is Tom Bombadil, as portrayed in this chapter and the previous and subsequent ones?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Darkstone
Elvenhome


Feb 3 2015, 5:17pm

Post #8 of 11 (7771 views)
Shortcut
"No-legs lay on one-leg, two legs sat near on three legs, four legs got some." [In reply to] Can't Post

”What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon, and three legs in the evening?”
-The Riddle of the Sphinx

A. What imagery do we associate with a “wide yellow beam” of light coming from a door, or with “a golden light” that surrounds a party on a threshold?

Dawn.

Basically the morning light that chases away all the previous night’s bugaboos.

Or it could be a daughter of Helios:

As soon as the girl [Medea granddaughter of Helios] had looked up from the ground she [Kirke daughter of Helios] noticed her eyes. For all the children of Helios were easy to recognise, even from a distance, by their flashing eyes, which shot out rays of golden light.
-Argonautica by Apollonius Rhodius (circa 3rd century BC)


B. Where else in the story is there such a continuing emphasis on the actual mode of lighting a room after dark?

From here on out there seems more an emphasis on shadows rather than light.

But there are the faraway lamps of Hobbiton as the hobbits look back, the many lamps hanging all around Lothlorien, and the two lamps that Sam sees following the boats on the Anduin.


At one point we see that candles are not the only light in Tom’s house.
C. What fuels the lamps in the room that swing from the roof-beams?


The Egyptians used beeswax in candle, wick and lamp oil.

Vegetable oils like olive oil and sesame oil can be used.

Whale oil is the best animal oil (that’s why whales were almost hunted to extinction) but somehow I doubt there are whales in the Whithywindle.

Petroleum oils burn brighter, but the fumes can damage the lungs.


D. How are lamps different from candles both as a practical and a symbolic way to light a room?

Lamps provide a constant point of light whereas a candle’s area of light shrinks and shadows grow and deepen as the height of the burning taper decreases.

Candles tend to be more contemplative and an aid to individual spirituality. Lamps tend to be more communal and keep the outer darkness at bay.


E. Do these candles describe themselves – that is, why don’t we read how the hobbits’ experience the light, shadow, smell, heat, or movement of many hours spent in the house lit entirely by candle-light?

I’d suppose the experience would be quite familiar to anyone who has spent time in a candle and lamp lit cathedral.


F. How literally should we take the image of candle-light shining whitely through Goldberry’s hand?

Anyone who has used a flashlight as an x-ray machine to examine the shadows of the bones in one’s hand knows it’s literal.


There is a fire burning in the hearth throughout the story. We are told it smells of apple-wood.
G. Why is the woodfire’s light never mentioned as contributing to the atmosphere?


Applwood is more for cooking than lighting. It burns hot and slowly and puts off very little smoke.

Contrast with the smoky fireplace and atmosphere of The Prancing Pony.

As for different types of fireplace logs:

Beechwood fires are bright and clear,
If the logs are kept a year;
Chestnut's only good they say,
If for logs 'tis laid away.
Make a fire of Elder tree,
Death within your house will be;
But ash new or ash old,
Is fit for a queen with crown of gold.

Birch and fir logs burn too fast,
Blaze up bright and do not last;
It is by the Irish said,
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread.
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould,
E'en the very flames are cold;
But ash green or ash brown,
Is fit for a queen with golden crown.

Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke;
Apple wood will scent your room;
Pear wood smells like flowers in bloom.
Oaken logs, if dry and old,
Keep away the winter's cold;
But ash wet or ash dry,
A king shall warm his slippers by.

-Celia Cosgreave, The Times, March 2nd 1930.


During blackouts due to storms, I’ve used candles to light my house. I’ve never used any kind of oil lamp.
H. Have you, and if so, how is candle-light or lamp-light different from electric light?


They’re much dimmer. If you’ve got mirrors or shiny finishes on furniture and such it helps. Note most interior scenes in the period films Barry Lyndon (1975) and Amadeus (1984) were lit entirely by candlelight.

All in all, the light from candle and lamp surrounds you in a bubble of light which seems (to me) to really emphasize the threshold of the darkness.

BTW, a common remark/complaint from people back when they converted to electric lights was that then they could see how dirty everything was.


I. Are these candles the fire in “By fire, sun and moon” in Tom’s incantatory verse, or if not, what is?

Seems to presage Gimli’s recital in in Moria:

”The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.”

“I like that!”' said Sam. “I should like to learn it. ’In Moria, in Khazad-dûm!’ But it makes the darkness seem heavier, thinking of all those lamps.”



J. Is the sun’s absence from the chapter a good or a bad thing?

Good (depth) for the readers, bad (dangerous) for the characters.


The long day of story-telling is opened with descriptions of ‘gray’ or ‘pale’ light, but after that the light in the room, or outside, is never described.
K. With so much emphasis on the use of candle light after dark, why no feeling for how Tom’s house is lit during the day, whether sunny or rainy?


In ancient times manmade lighting was primarily to keep the night’s darkness at bay.


L. Why does Tom not tell us about the Two Trees of silver and gold light from the Elder Days?

Who says he hasn’t when “He then told them many remarkable stories,… He told them... the ways of trees...” And surely Melkor and Ungoliant are at the very tippy-top of the trees’ list of ”destroyers and usurpers”.


M. In the incantation, is “By fire, sun and moon” a positive or negative part of the spell?

Yes.


N. Are there any breaks in the continuity of the narrative, in which time is unaccounted for?

Bathroom breaks.

Writing is always about selection. Relating some events, ignoring others.


By the end of the story-telling day, Frodo feels disoriented:

A dose of Bombadil will do that.


O. How long did Tom tell stories – that is, from when to when or for how many hours?

"What's to-day, my fine fellow?" said Scrooge.
"To-day?" replied the boy. "Why, Christmas Day."
"It's Christmas Day!" said Scrooge to himself. "I haven 't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can.”

-A Christmas Carol


P. Did the hobbits ever speak before Frodo asks Tom who he is?

“Peas and carrots” and “Rutabaga, rutabaga”.


When Tom appears to be falling asleep, the enchanted hobbits are said to imagine that “the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars.”
Q. But isn’t that exactly what has happened – that is, Frodo sits in wonder as the “stars shone through the window” and as we learn from Goldberry a minute later, isn’t it really dark out and hasn’t the rain actually stopped?


A scop makes reality with their stories. That’s why they’re called “makers”.


Frodo feels neither hungry nor tired and does not know how many days have passed since Tom began talking.
R. What is going on when we lose track of time due to absorption in some type of work or play: is time constant or variable?


One type of distortion of temporal perception is caused by “the oddball effect", and “oddball” pretty much describes Bombadil.


Later in Rivendell and Lorien, Tolkien will present us with places where Time proceeds on an Elven scale and where mortals like the hobbits become confused as to when things have happened or how long they took to happen.
S. Is Tom’s House a similar place, or different in some way?


An emotional state of awe can slow down time, which brings us back to Schopenhauer’s theory of the sublime.


T. Does Tom live in the present time, as reckoned by the hobbits of the Shire, the Dunedain of the North, the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien, or the Ents of Fangorn Forest?

Tom is the maker. A scop can bring the past to the present, take the present to the future, and even go sideways.


U. Was the rainy weather actually caused by Goldberry, to give the hobbits a chance to recover their courage and learn from Tom?

If she’s a mermaid.


Tom says that his trip to get lilies for Goldberry was an annual ritual of his; the flowers were
the last ere the year’s end to keep them from the winter,
to flower by her pretty feet till the snows are melted.

V. Does it snow in Tom’s country, as opposed to the Shire where snow rarely falls?


That’s what the man says.


Tom says the Willow is “cunning, and a master of winds,” but that he himself cannot predict or affect the weather:
for weather in that country was a thing that even Tom could not be sure of for long, and it would change sometimes quicker than he could change his jacket. ‘I am no weather-master,’ he said; ‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’

Yet some have suggested that the rain of this chapter is brought on by Goldberry as her “washing day”; in Lothlorien the company finds that although it is mid-winter in Middle-earth, “All the while that they dwelt there the sun shone clear, save for a gentle rain that fell at times”; and there is much in Books IV and VI to suggest that the Dark Lord summons the East Wind to drive the murk of Mt. Doom over the Western Lands.
W. Who is a weather-master in The Lord of the Rings?


Potentially anyone who doesn’t go on two legs, like an old man with a staff, or a mermaid, or a cat.


Tom Bombadil came trotting round the corner of the house, waving his arms as if he was warding off the rain - and indeed when he sprang over the threshold he seemed quite dry, except for his boots.

X. How does this curious little vignette relate to Tom’s other apparent “powers” or perhaps “lack of powers”?


Is the rain real or illusory?

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


Darkstone
Elvenhome


Feb 3 2015, 7:49pm

Post #9 of 11 (7832 views)
Shortcut
"Always look on the bright side of the Ring!" [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!
-The Life of Brian (1979)


A. What is happening in the scene that Frodo dreams about, and how does it compare with the actual event, as we later learn at the Council of Elrond?

The wolves are the oddity. Then again, Frodo has never seen an orc so maybe his mind is transforming it to a more known form from the hobbits’ own collective fear caused by the white wolves of the Fell Winter.

Of course Frodo’s greatest source of fear during the quest will be the build-up to his decision to turn “lone wolf” and go alone into Mordor. “He wondered if he would ever again have the courage to leave the safety of these stone walls.” That courage is pretty minor in comparison to his courage in leaving the safety of the Fellowship.


B. Are the hoof-beats that Frodo hears those of Gandalf on Shadowfax, or the Black Riders as he thinks?

I’m thinking Black Riders.


C. When he wakes from the dream, what “nightly noises” does he hear that Tom and Goldberry have told him to ignore?

If it’s outside in the darkness of the light, the way to bet historically is wolves.

Note Merry description of tales of the Old Forest:

"If you mean the old bogey-stories Fatty's nurses used to tell him, about goblins and wolves and things of that sort…. "


D. When Frodo looks out the window for signs of the horses he heard in his dream, but which he didn’t hear when awake, why does he “half expect” to see them?

Once upon a time, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting about happily enjoying himself. He did not know that he was Zhou. Suddenly he awoke, and was palpably Zhou. He did not know whether he was Zhou, who had dreamed of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhou. Now, there must be a difference between Zhou and the butterfly. This is called the transformation of things.
- Zhuangzi


This dream comes to Frodo just one night after the one he had at Crickhollow, two chapters earlier.
E. How do the two dreams compare, in the context of the story and as written by an author?


Seems to be associated with towers, specifically towers with palantirs.

The palantir in the first tower is associated with Gildor, the one in the second, though the tower is Saruman’s, is associated with the High King.

Presaging a certain ranger?


Some critics have identified this dream as an example of Tolkien exploring how to represent Time Travel, a subject he was very interested in.
F. Is that what’s going on here?


Scops can do that.


Now we are told about Pippin’s dream:
At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned. Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: “tip-tap, squeak”: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: “creak, creak, creak.” He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again.


Hmmm…. Ominous trees; fretting branches; wood surrounding someone and threatening them with death; and fevered dreams…

Where has Pippin seen such before? Or rather, when will he see it again?

Softly they paced the great courtyard, and at a word from Denethor halted beside the Withered Tree.
All was silent, save for the rumour of war in the City down below, and they heard the water dripping sadly from the dead branches into the dark pool.


”Bring us wood quick to burn, and lay it all about us, and beneath; and pour oil upon it.”


But there they found Faramir, still dreaming in his fever, lying upon the table. Wood was piled under it, and high all about it…

-The Pyre of Denethor


He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved. He seemed to hear the echo of words in his ears: ‘Fear nothing! Have peace until the morning! Heed no nightly noises!’
Then he went to sleep again.

Just as Frodo does, Pippin carries his dream with him when he wakes in the morning. He looks out the window and sees:
Near at hand was a flower-garden and a clipped hedge silver-netted, and beyond that grey shaven grass pale with dew-drops. There was no willow-tree to be seen.


'Take courage and look! There are fell things below.'
Reluctantly Pippin climbed on to the seat and looked out over the wall.

-The Siege of Gondor


G. Why mention that Pippin was “dreaming pleasantly”?

I’d suppose to show the difference in dreams between a hobbit with One Ring, and one without.


As the passage reminds us, the hobbits were twice told to “heed no nightly noises”.
H. Is Pippin awake, or dreaming, when he hears the branches against the outside of the house, and when he feels he is inside the Willow?


Is he a butterfly or a hobbit?


I. How does this dream compare with Frodo’s two dreams (at Crickhollow and here at Tom’s), in its events and in its writing?

Prophetic.


Then we read about Merry’s dream:
It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. ‘I shall be drowned!’ he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.’ He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his fool on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again. He seemed to hear or remember hearing: ‘Nothing passes doors or windows save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.’ A little breath of sweet air moved the curtain. He breathed deep and fell asleep again.

J. What in Merry’s experience explains this dream?


”By the morning, yesterday morning, the water had sunk down into all the holes, and there was a dense fog. We took refuge in that guardroom over there; and we had rather a fright. The lake began to overflow and pour out through the old tunnel, and the water was rapidly rising up the steps. We thought we were going to get caught like Orcs in a hole; but we found a winding stair at the back of the store-room that brought us out on top of the arch. It was a squeeze to get out, as the passages had been cracked and half blocked with fallen stone near the top. There we sat high up above the floods and watched the drowning of Isengard..
-Flotsam and Jetsam


Merry senses the water is rising “slowly but surely… ‘and then I shall drown.’”
K. Where else in the story does Merry react to a terrifying situation in this way?


To Merry the ascent seemed agelong, a meaningless journey in a hateful dream, going on and on to some dim ending that memory cannot seize.
Slowly the lights of the torches in front of him flickered and went out, and he was walking in a darkness; and he thought: 'This is a tunnel leading to a tomb; there we shall stay forever.'

-The Houses of Healing


L. Why is Merry comforted not by the “nightly noises” reassurance of his hosts, but by their statement of the house’s invulnerability?

He’s the practical one.


M. What are the differences in the way the three hobbits recover their sense of waking reality?

One pleasantly, one assuredly, but one very troubled.


As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented.

N. Did Sam not dream, or did he not remember dreaming?


Probably dreamt of his political future.

A democratic people have elected
King Log, King Stork, King Log, King Stork again.
Because I like a wide and silent pond
I voted Log. That party was defeated.

-James K. Baxter, Election 1960

Lotho definitely seems to have ended up a victim of the Stork Party.


In many ways, Frodo is the “dreaming hobbit” in the story.
O. Why do we hear about Merry and Pippin’s dreams here, as well as Frodo’s – but not Sam’s?


Sam is the stealth hobbit, a purloined letter, if you like.


‘I wakened Goldberry singing under window; but nought wakes hobbit-folk in the early morning. In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after light has come! Ring a ding dillo! Wake now, my merry friends! Forget the nightly noises!’

P. How does Tom know what the hobbits’ night was like?


The nightly noises told him.

After all, Tom is the Master!


He told them tales of bees and flowers….

What with eventually siring thirteen children, Sam obviously paid especial attention.


…the ways of trees,….

Wonder if that gave M&P an edge in dealing with the Ents?


… about the evil things and good things, things friendly and things unfriendly, cruel things and kind things…

Doubtless Frodo remembered the part about fair seeming foul and foul seeming fair.


…and secrets hidden under brambles.

Woman, you got too many brambles hiding under these bushes.
Woman, you got too many brambles, but I always liked a good storm.

-Tori Amos, Cooling


Q. What do the hobbits learn from Tom, in this inserted extra day, that has a demonstrated effect on their behavior later in the book?

Definitely to take a wide detour around Tom and the Old Forest on their way back.


R. How do Tom’s lessons differ from or resemble the lessons the hobbits learn from Gildor, Farmer Maggot, Strider, Butterbur, Elrond, or Bilbo?

More entertaining.


S. What is the connection between this passage, and others in the book where the stars are suddenly revealed from behind some dissolving veil?

Tom’s talking about unspoiled Arda, where there were no veils.


T. How does Tom’s ability to tell stories in “song” format relate to other oral traditions, and to our present methods of writing history or science in formal prose, or of using pictures and audio-visual media?

One night Tom might have told a tale as high tragedy, serious and dramatic. Another night he might tell the same tale but lingering on the gore and varying between telling it in quiet whispers and loud screams so as to scare the pants off the hobbits. And still another night he might tell the same tale with comically exaggerated mannerisms and faces and playing for big laughs.

That’s what scops did. No wonder people never got tired of hearing the old stories. It was not the story you told as much as how you told it.

Today’s methods of setting history and science in stone, and freezing events in pictures and on film like flies in amber, has reduced Reality to reality.


U. What is alarming, both now and in the context of the entire story, of the vision of Tom’s eye seen through the Ring?

It’s a demonstration of the entire promise and power of the One Ring. At it’s core it's nothing, and a wise person can see right through it.

Note how Tom’s assurance of “Fear nothing!’ now becomes a warning.


V. Why doesn’t Tom disappear?

The same reason Sauron doesn’t. Sauron’s form is merely a guise, thus so must Bombadil’s true form be something else other than that of an old man.


W. Why does Tom smile as he hands the Ring back to Frodo?

The robbed that smiles steals something from the thief;
He robs himself that spends a bootless grief.

-Othello, Act 1, scene 3


X. How does Tom’s speech to Frodo here compare to his general tone in this chapter?

He seems to be saying he’s trying to say something.


Y. Why introduce the question of how Tom relates to the Ring?

It shows how Bombadil taught Frodo a vital lesson to succeed at the quest: Treat the ring as nothing. It’s a lesson Frodo finally takes to heart after Weathertop. He can be taught!

Note this explains how he can so easily offer the ring to Galadriel: It’s nothing!

And how Galadriel is able to pass her test: She realizes it’s nothing!

And unfortunately how Frodo is overcome by the ring at the end: He becomes nothing!


Z. How important to The Lord of the Rings is Tom Bombadil, as portrayed in this chapter and the previous and subsequent ones?

It’s either absolutely central and essential.

Or nothing.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


sador
Gondolin


Mar 12 2015, 1:55pm

Post #10 of 11 (7732 views)
Shortcut
The Cottage of Lost Play [In reply to] Can't Post

A. What imagery do we associate with a “wide yellow beam” of light coming from a door, or with “a golden light” that surrounds a party on a threshold?
Answered amply by Darkstone and a.s.

B. Where else in the story is there such a continuing emphasis on the actual mode of lighting a room after dark?
In The Lord of the Rings? I'm not quite sure what you mean. There is the candle-light in Gandalf and Pippin's room in Minas Tirith, and there is also Gandalf's letting light in after blotting it out in Meduseld. Do you have anything specific in mind? The twenty-first hall of Khazad-dum?

J. Is the sun’s absence from the chapter a good or a bad thing?
It is a mythic thing. Tom is re-enacting the Day before days for the hobbits' benefit.

But it is interesting to compare your observation with Sam's in Lothlorien, that he always identified Elves with the moon and stars (perhaps he had read chapter 12 of the Quenta Silmarillion). Is Tom's house elvish?
Come to think of it, might it be an incarnation of The Cottage of Lost Play?

K. With so much emphasis on the use of candle light after dark, why no feeling for how Tom’s house is lit during the day, whether sunny or rainy?

Too practical for Tolkien to describe in this chapter.

L. Why does Tom not tell us about the Two Trees of silver and gold light from the Elder Days?

We aren't told either way. If it is the Cottage, he might have.
But we shouldn't take my flight of fancy too far - later on Weathertop, it appears that the story of Tinuviel was new to them.

P. Did the hobbits ever speak before Frodo asks Tom who he is?

Not that we know of. We are supposed to feel that they are silent, listening spellbound as he conjures up the visions for them.
Like he does in the next chapter.

Q. But isn’t that exactly what has happened – that is, Frodo sits in wonder as the “stars shone through the window” and as we learn from Goldberry a minute later, isn’t it really dark out and hasn’t the rain actually stopped?
Yes, but shhh! Don't spoil the enchantment.

R. What is going on when we lose track of time due to absorption in some type of work or play: is time constant or variable?
This doesn't happen to me too often, or often enough. I can't really answer.


S. Is Tom’s House a similar place, or different in some way?
But not feeling hunger? Hobbits?

One can see were the BotR crew took there cue from. But they should have mentioned barbiturates.

U. Was the rainy weather actually caused by Goldberry, to give the hobbits a chance to recover their courage and learn from Tom?
I doubt it. She wouldn't do it for the hobbits -they are too insignificant in Tom and her's view.
But Tom and her do seem to have an uncanny foreknowledge of the weather - perhaps she held the rain off for long enough for him to get her water-lillies.

V. Does it snow in Tom’s country, as opposed to the Shire where snow rarely falls?
I'm sure it does on the Downs.

W. Who is a weather-master in The Lord of the Rings?
Tom does not necessarily mean "weather-master" as someone who controls, or influences the weather, but someone who can accurately forecast it for a long period of time.
Arguably, even Sauron's darkness broke sooner than expected - so I would assume only the Valar are.

By the way, you didn't mention the light and water Sam asks for in Mordor. But I don't think Galadriel sent them; it was the true Lady - Varda Herself.




sador
Gondolin


Mar 12 2015, 3:50pm

Post #11 of 11 (7700 views)
Shortcut
Catching up. [In reply to] Can't Post

A week with no regular discussion is an opportunity. Maybe next week I'll tackle DanielB's discussion of Fog on the Barrow-downs.
Will anybody read these responses? I wonder.

A. What is happening in the scene that Frodo dreams about, and how does it compare with the actual event, as we later learn at the Council of Elrond?
As Gandalf will say, it was late in coming.

B. Are the hoof-beats that Frodo hears those of Gandalf on Shadowfax, or the Black Riders as he thinks?
They might have been 'fossils' of the drafts, during which Riders did surround the house.
But they are supposed to be amiguous, I think. And they include a third meaning - the sound of Saruman's pursuit, with the wolf-riders morphed into something Frodo is familiar with.

C. When he wakes from the dream, what “nightly noises” does he hear that Tom and Goldberry have told him to ignore?

Sam snoring.

D. When Frodo looks out the window for signs of the horses he heard in his dream, but which he didn’t hear when awake, why does he “half expect” to see them?
Bilbo did, or at least was told his dreams were true, in Queer Lodgings.


E. How do the two dreams compare, in the context of the story and as written by an author?
The first reflects Frodo's inner yearning for something beyond him - probably another result of his encounter with Gildor.
It also reflects Tolkien's famous allegory of the tower, in Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics:

Quote

But from the top of that tower the man had been able to look out upon the sea.

And it is heartbreaking that the only time Frodo ever gets to the top of a tower is in Cirith Ungol.

The second dream is supposed to reflect reality - in an inexact, dream-like way.

F. Is that what’s going on here?
You can call Prof. Flieger by name, you know.
But no, I don't think so. Frodo isn't travelling - he is recieving a message.

H. Is Pippin awake, or dreaming, when he hears the branches against the outside of the house, and when he feels he is inside the Willow?
If indeed the willows are connected to Goldberry, than he might be awake - just like Bilbo was when he heard the bears outside Beorn's door.

J. What in Merry’s experience explains this dream?
I like Darkstone's explanation. But it might be connected to his experience in the barrow in two nights' time.

Or else somebody was waterboarding him, but I don't really think so.


L. Why is Merry comforted not by the “nightly noises” reassurance of his hosts, but by their statement of the house’s invulnerability?
As Darkstone said, he is pragmatic.

N. Did Sam not dream, or did he not remember dreaming?
Had he dreamed of Rosie Cotton, he surely would have remembered it.

O. Why do we hear about Merry and Pippin’s dreams here, as well as Frodo’s – but not Sam’s?
He is still a manservant, and not supposed to dream. Not yet.
In book IV he will.

P. How does Tom know what the hobbits’ night was like?
He might have heard by the door that they woke up at night. There need not be anything more - although Tolkien does instill the uncanny feeling that there probably is.

S. What is the connection between this passage, and others in the book where the stars are suddenly revealed from behind some dissolving veil?
It is instructive, in a way, and trransports the hobbits elsewhere (I'm not sure about dreams, but stories can do that!).
By Comparison, the Mirror of Galadriel is divinatory, even if the portents are not easy to understand.
And the star Sam sees in Mordor is a sign of hope, and of faith.

I wonder if Gimli was inspired in a way by looking in Mirrormere. It seems the hobbits were not.

U. What is alarming, both now and in the context of the entire story, of the vision of Tom’s eye seen through the Ring?

It is alarming to see the One Ring trifled with.

And in many editions of the book, the image of the Eye wreathed in flame within the Ring is used in the cover or the artwork (see for an_example). And when you come to think of it, the only eye ever peeping through the Ring is Tom's.

V. Why doesn’t Tom disappear?
Maybe he does, but the hobbits have been transported to a different level, in which they can see what is normally invisible?

Ah, no; later, Merry won't be able to see Frodo.

W. Why does Tom smile as he hands the Ring back to Frodo?

To reassure him after alarming him.
Like grown-ups often do to children. It never works.

X. How does Tom’s speech to Frodo here compare to his general tone in this chapter?
It breaks the magic, doesn't it?

Y. Why introduce the question of how Tom relates to the Ring?

To show how the true essence of Nature cannot be preverted. But as Gandalf will say in the Council, it could be conquered.
Which makes destroying the Ring of the utmost importance.

Z. How important to The Lord of the Rings is Tom Bombadil, as portrayed in this chapter and the previous and subsequent ones?

For the first two or three reading, absolutely zilch; but later he grows on us, until he becomes crucial.

The same could be said of Cerin Amroth, and the Desolation of Mordor.






 
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.