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malickfan
Mithlond
Nov 17 2011, 3:16pm
Post #1 of 8
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how old is cirdan the shipwright?
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Can anyone answer this, I've found several conflicting answers on different websites, all of which give the impression he's older than treebeard...
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2011, 5:37pm
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Círdan was one of the oldest--if not the oldest--of the Grey-elves still living in Middle-earth in the Third Age and a kinsman of Elwë (Thingol Greycloak). In the First Age, he was lord of the Falas, with its havens of Eglarest and Brithombar, until it was overrun in FA 474. Círdan was so old that by the end of the Third Age he actually looked old and sported a long beard.
For all that I can tell, Círdan could have been one of the original Quendi to awake in the East in Cuiviénen.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2011, 6:00pm
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While there is no doubt that Círdan is the oldest elf we meet in the LotR, Círdan may have been born at Cuivienen, but he was most probably not one of the original Elves who 'awoke' there.
The 'Unbegotten' (Elves who originally awoke) awoke each with their respective spouse (resulting in 144 Elves in 72 pairs). Elwë had to wife Melian and she did not awake at Cuivienen. Elwë also had two brothers Olwë and Elmo, hence he had parents who may have been 'Unbegotten'. Círdan was 'akin' to Elwë and Olwë but was their junior (else He would be King of the Teleri) so he is likely not of the 'Unbegotten'. He also seems not to have had a spouse. For completeness, Finwë had to wife Míriel. Míriel had a mother name (Serindë), and hence a mother. Thus Míriel was born, hence Finwë did not 'Awaken'. Ingwë had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother) and hence had parents, thus he was born and not Unbegotten.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 17 2011, 6:04pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2011, 6:02pm
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Thank you for the clarification. That makes perfect sense.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2011, 5:10pm
Post #5 of 8
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Going back to your original question...
[In reply to]
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From the Silmarillion we know that the Ents awoke at (almost exactly) the same time as the Elves:
'When the Children awake, then thought of Yavanna will awake also...' This can be interpreted as "the thought of Yavanna" being the Ents. As at the end of the chapter "Of Aule and Yavanna", Manwe states, "But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees." This is before the chapter, 'Of the Coming of the Elves'. And as Treebeard was one of the original three, then it suggests that Treebeard and the Unbegotten were of the same age (although there is a the question to who awoke first).
Treebeard says of the Elves (in The Two Towers):
"Elves began it of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk."
Which seems to mean that Ents were active but only amongst themselves and the trees (in their very early years). So, they existed since the Elves have, but the Elves instructed them in their tongue and caused them to become more active (walk, learn, sing, etc.), less "tree-ish" if you will.
As Cirdan was not of the Unbegotten, then Treebeard must be older.
Gandalf further says:
"Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth."
Of course, this contradicts the following qoute:
"I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was first."
But of course, there are many, many contradictions; so I suggest that:
T. Bombadil
The Unbegotten/original Ents
Cirdan
Galadriel
Is the list from oldest to youngest. As for actual ages, that would need some more thinking.
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Hanzkaz
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2011, 10:48pm
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the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.
He was probably the oldest living that originated in Middle-Earth.
As for Tom Bombadil, he might have been the first of his kind to arrive on Middle-Earth.
I think the Elves predated the Ents, but any Elf older than Treebeard was probably no longer on Middle-Earth.
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dijomaja
Menegroth
Nov 19 2011, 12:10pm
Post #7 of 8
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"...very old."
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Apr 24 2012, 3:01am
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on Death
Let "TOMMY take Care of The FORCEzzzz of EViiiLe..
That's
TB&Goldberry ..s..job,is it
NOT?
NOW all you knuckle-Heads Consider...yourself
tucked in your PJ's??? With your Favorite Books
Read quietly under candlelight by JRRT.
himself
Xoxox. FromBomby...G-berry & cats. ARAGORN&ARWEN
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