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Scourge of the Stoors
Ossiriand
Jan 4 2014, 10:37am
Post #1 of 34
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Was Arwen wearing a bra? (hate to ask)
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Okay, this is not meant to be trollish or anything, but when Arwen is wearing her blue gown and holding Aragorn's hands in TTT, it looks like the skin on her chest is showing right through the cloth. It really bugs me and takes me out of the movie. Totally inappropriate for Tolkien.
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Barbarb
Lindon
Jan 4 2014, 12:29pm
Post #2 of 34
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I kinda noticed it too, though I think she is probably wearing something flesh coloured under the dress.
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IdrilofGondolin
Nargothrond
Jan 4 2014, 2:35pm
Post #3 of 34
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And I think I remember Liv Tyler saying in an interview that she was not wearing much of anything under those dresses. The blue one she wore in the scene where Aragorn is reclining on the divan definately has structural under-garments, but the death dress and I think the coranation dress seem not to be supported by anything, if you know what I mean.
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Jan 4 2014, 4:35pm
Post #4 of 34
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if you hate to ask... then why do it?
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I never understand statements like that. Why do something you 'hate' to do or you are 'sorry' to do (as others might phrase it). You have choices.
The topic, imo, is not worthy of public discussion. It lacks a certain... decorum, if you will.
If you feel her undergarments were inappropriate for Tolkien then why would discussing the undergarments be appropriate for Tolkien or a Tolkien board? I mean, I would hope we would strive for Tolkien's standards in lots of things when discussing Tolkien.
This is all while acknowledging (as it is important to do or get called on), that you have a right to discuss it. At least as long as it meets the 'family friendly' code for the forum which is not my call to make.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 4 2014, 4:37pm)
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Wilfred
Nevrast
Jan 4 2014, 5:10pm
Post #5 of 34
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe TORn is first and foremost a Peter Jackson film forum, not a Tolkien forum (that is, it was created primarily for fans of the films, not for Tolkien buffs).
In any case, TORn is closely linked to the films and discussion about Liv Tyler's underwear (or lack thereof) took place within the EE special features so I think it's perfectly appropriate for this forum - far more so than some of the outrageous 'shipping that goes on on this forum, anyway.
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Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Jan 4 2014, 5:16pm
Post #7 of 34
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We do see a bra strap under one of the
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In pictures of her blue and silver gown (the requiem gown) there is a bra strap. Though whether it's a separate garment or part of a built in support I don't know.
I won't argue whether or not this gown is up to Tolkien's standards, but I will say that a lot can be hidden with movie magic. And though the dress is sheer around her knees when the light shows through there is an extra layer of fabric up around her torso and her body is blocking the light from coming through. So it may still be sheer (I don't know how sheer) but you wouldn't be able to see as much of her bust as you can of her legs.
Warning: the preceding message may contain satire, sarcasm, irony, puns, and other attempts at humor.
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 4 2014, 8:16pm
Post #8 of 34
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There are no bras in Middle-earth....
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They weren't invented until the 20th century. 
But I think it's clear enough that Arwen is wearing some kind of undergarment with that sheer dress. Whatever it is, it's skin-coloured, but the silhouette is very demure - no inappropriate outlines can be seen! (By the way, is it really so un-Tolkien to have sheer garments worn by elf women? It seems quite appropriate to me, providing it's all very discreet of course....)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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IdrilofGondolin
Nargothrond
Jan 4 2014, 10:45pm
Post #9 of 34
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Clothing is designed with several things in mind including the undergarments in current fashion. Fashion changes of course and part of that change is new undergarment design. For example, in the 1920's women wore a type of corset that flattened them out front and back. Cami-knickers were fashionable. Neither of these would have produced the silhouette of the Victorian or Edwardian eras. One cannot successfully wear vintage clothing (I know this from experience) unless one is wearing the correct undergarments. The real question here is what were the costume designers were hoping to achieve for Arwen's silhouette, Arwen's undergarments or lack thereof would be chosen with that in mind. So yours is a good question.
Oh, and a linen bra dating to the 1400's was found in tact in an Austrian castle recently.
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Mad Baggins
Lindon
Jan 4 2014, 11:44pm
Post #10 of 34
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I'm having flashbacks to Star Wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvVUMW_iUlw
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 5 2014, 1:00am
Post #11 of 34
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I'm remembering comments about Frodo's clothing,
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possibly coming from Elijah, where it was said that even the underwear he wore was designed in Hobbit style - even though no one would ever see them in the film. I have no doubt that any underwear that Liv was wearing would have been designed within the Elf aesthetic.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Barrow-Wight
Nargothrond
Jan 5 2014, 3:49am
Post #12 of 34
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......I like that scene lol
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Jan 5 2014, 6:20am
Post #13 of 34
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the banner on these pages says
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"forged by and for fans of jrr tolkien" with no caveats implying an emphasis on the movies.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 5 2014, 3:08pm
Post #14 of 34
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caused a bit of a stir, I recall, when we got a glimpse of it in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. When someone suggested that it was a mistake and that it was Elijah Wood's own underwear showing, there were two kinds of response. Some people posted pictures of period-correct gentlemen's linen drawers (which matched the waistband you could see in the scene), while others posted pics of Elijah flashing his multicoloured boxers at fan events!
I also recall Hugo Weaving talking about the layers of beautiful Elvish clothing that were forever hidden under his outer garments. I think we can be pretty sure that Liv Tyler had at least equally beautiful and delicate underclothing - although I expect a bit of what Arwen's Daughter calls "movie magic" is involved as well. After all, mere mortal Liv Tyler would probably need a little more help with these things than an Elf would. I'm sure a little elf magic must have been involved in keeping that "requiem gown" in place, for example!
On the OP's original point, I've just remembered that the scene in which Arwen is wearing the translucent dress is actually meant to be a dream of Aragorn's. I vaguely recall from the commentaries that the original idea had been to make it a bedroom scene, but that the filmmakers realized that wouldn't be appropriate. That may be the origin of having Arwen wear what is essentially a negligé in the scene. It's not really so different, though, from the dream-like descriptions of Beren and Luthien's first encounter, as written by Tolkien:
A! lissom limbs and shadowy hair
and chaplet of white snowdrops there;
O! starry diadem and white
pale hands beneath the pale moonlight!
She left his arms and slipped away
just at the breaking of the day.
(Lays of Beleriand)
Tolkien could write intimate encounters when he wanted to!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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warhorse78
Nevrast
Jan 6 2014, 3:09am
Post #15 of 34
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I felt like Arwen was being free
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And maybe sporting something like Madonna does in Vogue.
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Barrow-Wight
Nargothrond
Jan 6 2014, 4:18am
Post #16 of 34
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She wears those clothes when she can cause Elrond probably doesn't allow her to lol "Arwen you are 2,000 years old you are not leaving this house looking like that!" lol
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 7 2014, 12:13am
Post #17 of 34
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And physically, she may never had need of one until the "light of the valar"
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was let go and she became mortal. The youthful and immortal physique would eventually give way to natural aging.
The thread is really about continuity issues regarding the use of clothing that may or may not have been present and / or if it was a film error. Just like the blue nylon rope in the Grey Havens and the car in the background.
I don't think we have to consider elven women as nuns when it came to dress. Looking over artistic renderings of Luthien one sees similar approaches to light, flowing clothing.
Artists have also painted Luthien and Guinevere is similar fashion.
Lastly, who is to say elves had not crafted such clothing? Just because humans discovered it late does not mean it could never have existed among elf folk. They took the technology with them.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 7 2014, 12:23am)
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Cillendor
Menegroth
Jan 7 2014, 1:54am
Post #18 of 34
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Middle-earth could have completely different standards of dress and modesty. Tolkien seems to have written it to fit pretty closely with European fashions, but there's no reason to think she would've had a bra. I don't see what the big deal is either way.
If it takes you out of the movie, shut your eyes at that scene.
(This post was edited by Cillendor on Jan 7 2014, 1:55am)
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Kassandros
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2014, 2:12am
Post #19 of 34
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If this takes you out of the movie...
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How on earth did you make it through the previous 10 hours?
all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...
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demnation
Nargothrond
Jan 8 2014, 3:12pm
Post #20 of 34
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe TORn is first and foremost a Peter Jackson film forum, not a Tolkien forum (that is, it was created primarily for fans of the films, not for Tolkien buffs).
If that's the case, then I have to ask myself what I'm doing here.
Forged by and for fans of JRR Tolkien has been the TORn motto since its inception.
Without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless
As far as any character is 'like me' it is Faramir–except that I lack what all my characters possess: Courage.
A small knowledge of history depresses one with the sense of the everlasting mass and weight of human iniquity
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2014, 3:44pm
Post #21 of 34
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******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2014, 4:58pm
Post #22 of 34
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I don't see how Tolkien would mind either way.
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According to Mary Renault, who was a student of Tolkien's in the 1920s, he was very much into supporting equal rights for women at Oxford.
(BTW, note that during the 1920s, ladies' "bras" were often little more than camisoles.)
Note Letter 294:
"I have read all that E. R. Eddison wrote, in spite of his peculiarly bad nomenclature and personal philosophy. I was greatly taken by the book that was (I believe) the runner-up when The L. R. was given the Fantasy Award, 'Death of Grass'. I enjoy the S.F. of Isaac Azimov. Above these, I was recently deeply engaged in the books of Mary Renault; especially the two about Theseus, The King Must Die, and The Bull from the Sea. A few days ago I actually received a card of appreciation from her; perhaps the piece of ‘Fan-mail’ that gives me most pleasure."
Note that like most of Renault’s novels, The King Must Die and The Bull From the Sea dealt sympathetically with male and female homosexual characters.
Ms. Renault died in 1983, renowned as one of the 20th century's greatest authors of gay literature.
Tolkien wasn't quite the blue-nosed Victorian you might assume, so I doubt a bra-less female would freak him out.
******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 8 2014, 9:09pm
Post #24 of 34
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As others have noted, although it's true that TORn originated due to and during the build-up to the New Line films, it has always incorporated Tolkien as much as, or more than, Jackson as its center. After all, before the films had come out what other kind of Tolkien fan was there, to come and join TORn?
On the other hand, regarding forums within forums, this particular board is of course the Movie Board - clearly dedicated to discussions of matters related to the New Line films of LotR. As such, I think a *tasteful* consideration of this aspect of Arwen's wardrobe design is perfectly appropriate -- and of course interesting to many of us, no matter whether Tolkien himself would have engaged in thoughts of Elven undergarments!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Jan 8 2014, 9:52pm
Post #25 of 34
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Of course there is that Girdle of Melian.
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Had to say it. 
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!
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