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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Some things that NEVER came to pass.
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Mar 28 2007, 11:10pm

Post #26 of 97 (1311 views)
<The skulls in the Paths of the Dead ROTK EE aren't any better than what's mentioned here. > [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, come on, pulsating diseased lungs are pretty bad!


Mar 28 2007, 11:11pm

Post #27 of 97 (1286 views)
Yes, in my opinion we really lucked out! (n/t) [In reply to] Can't Post



Mar 28 2007, 11:13pm

Post #28 of 97 (1268 views)
What? (n/t) [In reply to] Can't Post



Mar 28 2007, 11:41pm

Post #29 of 97 (1358 views)
Liv Tyler did do some persuading... [In reply to] Can't Post

In one of the commentaries, she talks about convincing the writers that "you don't have to put a sword in Arwen's hand to make her strong." No doubt the fact that the sword work she was doing wasn't convincing or something she was comfortable with had something to do with that.

Phillipa also talks about a dinnertime conversation with Liv where they discussed Arwen's character, resulting in lots of notes on napkins and the softer version we ultimately got on screen.

There were lots of jokes about writing scenes where the guys take their shirts off, but alas, none of those made it into the final version, except for Elijah Wood in the tower...



Mar 28 2007, 11:48pm

Post #30 of 97 (1336 views)
Which ones were the studio's ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

You identify some of the things in your original post as ideas of the studio -- were the rest things the film makers originally thought would be good?

I find this all pretty interesting, but as someone who does a lot of writing for a living I know that sometimes you have to come up with bad stuff before you can get to the good stuff. I'm just glad they finally figured it out -- well most of it.

Given that they started out wanting to make a film "like" LOTR, I'm guessing that a lot of these ideas are the result of starting from that perspective. Making LOTR into a film wasn't their lifelong dream. They sort of realized along the way they were "chosen instruments" to do that, I think, and so the films gradually become more like the book as they went on. The fan input no doubt contributed a lot to this, which they not only encouraged, but listened to (within reason!).


Advising Elf

Mar 29 2007, 12:18am

Post #31 of 97 (1278 views)
I agree! [In reply to] Can't Post

But so is a pointless skull avalanche. Not only silly, but a large waste of time and effort.

Easier than pulsating diseased lungs though, I guess.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:

Superuser / Moderator

Mar 29 2007, 12:31am

Post #32 of 97 (1313 views)
I mean, [In reply to] Can't Post

a Captain of the Mark out on long patrol wouldn't brush down his horse in full armour, would he?

.....sorry, where was I? Evil


Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories


Mar 29 2007, 2:44am

Post #33 of 97 (1259 views)
Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it the same Brian Sibley that did the BBC radio version? How long has Brian known PJ? Did they meet before the movies?

Tol Eressea

Mar 29 2007, 5:11am

Post #34 of 97 (1256 views)
Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

It is the same Brian Sibley. I think in one of the "Making of" books Brian Sibley says how he met Peter, but I don't remember off hand.


Mar 29 2007, 8:31am

Post #35 of 97 (1324 views)
I think we all have an idea just how bad it could have been.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But these are all your over-blown Hollywood-esque cliche's for how bad The Lord of the Rings could have been?
If not, I've stopped laughing.


Mar 29 2007, 2:45pm

Post #36 of 97 (1326 views)
really? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought Jackson's vision was to do three movies, and Newline was the only one who agreed to finance it?

I have never heard that it was New Line's idea to do three.

One movie would have been a disaster, no matter who directed it.

The flow of the entire story works so well because it was all filmed at once.

Plus being released the way they were, helped keep the casual viewer interested. There is no way they could have made TTT and ROTK in such a short time.


Mar 29 2007, 2:55pm

Post #37 of 97 (1293 views)
worked well [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Tyler.

The films were able to portray Arwen as a soft, beautiful voice of reason.

The scenes with Arwen and Aragorn show her as the positive thinking one. And as the one who comforts Aragorn when his self doubt kicks in.

Plus rewriting the Frodo/Nazgul chase scene with her as the rider, displayed her courage and abilities.

But these are also the reasons why I did not like the "Arwen is dying" scenes or storyline.

It did show her unconditional love for Arargorn and positive thoughts about the outcome.

But something was missing to tie it all together. Seeing her just lying there doing nothing, doesn't fit.

I think the cut scenes with her and Elrond would have really tied it together. It is a shame we will never see them.


Mar 29 2007, 3:41pm

Post #38 of 97 (1260 views)
You're right, it would have really tied it together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Please don't say we will never see them. These are exactly the type of things I still hope to see one day in the new high definition version with branching option to insert into the body of the movie. Not do-able, of course, if she says something or does something that directly conflicts with the storyline as now filmed.

I think the cut scenes with her and Elrond would have really tied it together. It is a shame we will never see them.

At home, amongst the Mallorn trees.

Forum Admin / Moderator

Mar 29 2007, 8:12pm

Post #39 of 97 (1316 views)
As I recall... [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ was shopping around a two-movie version, but could only find takers for one. He said he couldn't do it in that short of a space, so he was given a short window of time to get another studio interested. The last studio he visited was New Line, and he was blown away when they said "It's three books, it should be three movies". It's not that PJ wasn't interested in doing three, it's just that he didn't think there was any studio that would go for it.


Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.


Mar 29 2007, 10:53pm

Post #40 of 97 (1309 views)
Studio's ideas [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that only the ones that I identified were the studio's ideas. You hit the nail on the head about having to go through a lot of bad stuff to get to the good stuff.

Peter did mention about the films becoming more like the book as they went along. I thought that you might like to see the following excerpt from the book:

"I was lying in bed one Sunday morning, talking to Fran, reading the newspaper and having a cup of tea, and we were kind of excited about the computer effects that we were currently doing for The Frighteners...

"On this particular morning we were asking ourselves what kind of films we could do with computers. What hadn't been done? And I said to Fran, 'You know, the genre, that's never really been done well - not for a long time - is the fantasy genre...

"So, my first idea was to make a picture in the style of The Lord of the Rings, but to keep it very real: amazing buildings and creatures but real environments, characters and emotions. It should be a story that was relatively serious, have depth and complexity, but nothing should look artificial or fake. It should feel as if the world in which it is set have a past and a sense of history. Why should a character named Theoden King of Rohan be any less real than Henry VIII, King of England? Why shouldn't characters be grounded in cultures and worlds that feel genuine and authentic - even historical? That, after all, is precisely what Tolkien did so well in his book.

"Then Fran said, 'Why would you want to create your own story when The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit are the really great fantasy stories; and, anyway, we could never write anything as good as that?'

"And almost immediately I found myself wondering why no one had ever made The Lord of the Rings as a live-action movie?"


Mar 29 2007, 10:55pm

Post #41 of 97 (1254 views)
Not mine! [In reply to] Can't Post

But cheer up! They didn't happen!


Mar 29 2007, 10:57pm

Post #42 of 97 (1251 views)
I got to thinking [In reply to] Can't Post

(which is always dangerous), I hope that no one takes my post the wrong way. It was not intended as a put-down to Peter or the movies, both of which I admire a great deal. Whenever I make something, or draw something, or write something I usually don't want anyone to see it until it is finished because I don't want anyone to see all of the mistakes and really bad stuff I go through along the way. With any luck, most of that is removed or changed by the end. But as I said before, there was no guarantee that any of these things wouldn't have ended up in the movies. If the film makers had been a little less talented, or had a little less time, or if someone else had made these movies, these things could have ended up there. So, be thankful for what we have, despite any shortcomings.


Mar 29 2007, 11:08pm

Post #43 of 97 (1242 views)
I very much took your post [In reply to] Can't Post

the way you meant it. I made a post below in regards to comparing the movie adaptation of Eragon to the LotR adaptation and came to the same conclusion. I really feel that LotR was meant to be made at the time it was and we are very lucky to have the result! Things could have been amazingly different, in a bad way. Thanks for your original post, it was fascinating.

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."
~Oscar Wilde


Mar 30 2007, 2:51pm

Post #44 of 97 (1259 views)
thanks for posting this... [In reply to] Can't Post

That conversation was the start of it all, wasn't it? And it does clarify that their intent from the beginning was to treat LOTR as a real, rather than fantasy film. I could see where that would lead to them focusing on very detailed, well thought out sets and character development and arcs, as they did, rather than the mystical/spiritual or "hidden message" side of the story.

Though plenty of the things that they weren't focusing on still came through in the story -- for example, the films have what I would term a lot of spiritual imagery -- those things seem to me to be intriguing, stand-alone elements, rather than connected to the main approach they were using. While the films grew in the telling, like the story, the place from which they started -- an emphasis on historical realism and characters -- still largely stand as the foundation of them. I suppose it's comparable to Tolkien wanting to create a myth for his country or a basis for his languages -- lots of other things entered in along the way, but at their heart, those two intents of the author are the basic building blocks of them.

I do hope that we get to see other LOTR films down the road. Other film makers, say a strong Catholic team, might choose to emphasize the aspects of the story that resonated with those beliefs. A feminist film maker might have done something entirely different with the female characters. Think how many interpretations there have been on stage and film of Greek myths, or Shakespeare. Collectively, we are richer for all of them. I'd also love to see the Jackson films have something else to be compared to, also, so that they can be appreciated or judged in a comparative environment, rather than standing on a lonely mountain top as they are now right now. That's a hard place to be!

This has been quite an interesting discussion -- I'd love to see you post more excerpts, if you have time. You've also convinced me to get the Film Maker's Journey book. Thank you!



Mar 30 2007, 4:44pm

Post #45 of 97 (1275 views)
Characters [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there information on characters that were included when it was two movies? It seems that Faramir and Denethor were included. I heard that Eomer was cut.


Mar 30 2007, 9:51pm

Post #46 of 97 (1208 views)
Yes, thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really enjoyed reading Jackson's thoughts.

Chalk me up as another who will pick up a copy!


Mar 30 2007, 9:55pm

Post #47 of 97 (1214 views)
Thanks to both [In reply to] Can't Post

I was always under the impression that it was Jackson who wanted three.

Thanks for clearing it up for me.

I must say that I have a new found admiration for Newline.

It is really a shame they cannot work out their legal problems.

They make a good team.


Mar 31 2007, 6:13am

Post #48 of 97 (1236 views)
I've been separated from my book. [In reply to] Can't Post

The book is in Ohio and I am in California. I check when I get back to Ohio next week.


Mar 31 2007, 8:28pm

Post #49 of 97 (1244 views)
Excerpts [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with all. I might post more excerpts in the future. I think what I would like to do is come up with a theme and look for quotes and excerpts pertaining to that theme like I did this time, but that would take some time. Right now my wife and I are on vacation in California and I won't be back home, where my book is, until next week. What I would really like would be for some other people to read the book and get some discussions going. Thank you so much for all your kind comments.

Eärwen Swan Maiden Of Alqualondë

Apr 1 2007, 9:48pm

Post #50 of 97 (1243 views)
This really brings into terrifying focus [In reply to] Can't Post

What could easily happen to our beloved "Hobbit" should it fall into the hands of the wrong director. One can only pray...


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