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LordElrond
Ossiriand
Apr 29 2013, 12:45am
Post #1 of 25
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the Hidden Pass into Rivendell
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Just a simple question, what are your thoughts on the Hidden Pass? Was it a fair change from the book or not a major thing to even think about?
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sauget.diblosio
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2013, 1:01am
Post #2 of 25
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I like the idea of the hidden pass,
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and thought it was well executed (i especially like Bombur squeezing through the tight spots). And it made for a wonderful entrance scene into Rivendell, including Elrond's awesome arrival. Too bad it followed the clumsy and ill-concieved bunnysled/warg chase.
I can't wait to see more Rivendell in the EE.
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Kaede
Ossiriand
Apr 29 2013, 1:52am
Post #3 of 25
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Worked for me. Though I admit to liking *some* non-canon content in a film adaptation and I don't feel a novel must be straight to film. I think that book-Rivendell is such a sanctuary (both in The Hobbit and LOTR) that I appreciated some added mystery/interest/tension--otherwise it just becomes a predictable (if awesome) rest stop. I didn't mind the warg chase, either, though I understand some did. As a viewer, I was focused on the chance to see the dwarves under pressure and the mutual defense moments. The cg didn't interfere with my enjoyment of that...for me it worked fine. Better (imho) than a slow mosey down the road from Trollshaw to Rivendell.
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Escapist
Mithlond
Apr 29 2013, 2:00am
Post #4 of 25
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It's one of those things that seems likely enough.
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I really liked the plot leading up to finding it and the reactions to it. I can't shake the feeling that they shinied the CGI up in the warg chase on the DVDs but I could be wrong.
I guess the only question is about the finding of it. Did Gandalf know beforehand about it (I'm guessing so)? Do the elves of Rivendell know about it? Are there similar crevasses that they might not know about? It is wonderfully intriguing all together.
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Barrow-Wight
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2013, 2:14am
Post #5 of 25
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I was kinda disappointed in it now I don't care it's pretty cool now and wasn't there some kind of sound or something magical about the rocks that let Gandalf know where it was? I could have sworn I heard some kind of chimes or something
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deskp
Menegroth
Apr 29 2013, 2:24am
Post #6 of 25
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I think that was art of the sound design, similar to how most light glares in movies comes with a sound.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2013, 3:04am
Post #7 of 25
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plus it would have been a slower introduction to a place viewers had already seen in LOTR's if they shot it like the book.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Apr 29 2013, 3:19am
Post #8 of 25
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It seemed to me that someone just admitted, "Hey, the script says we're in the middle of a rock field and the movie is already three hours long. How the heck do we get from there to Rivendell in ten seconds? I know - secret passage!"
In other words, a lazy scriptwriter shortcut, or Deus ex pervium.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Apr 29 2013, 3:19am)
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Apr 29 2013, 8:17am
Post #9 of 25
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I wasn't happy about its inclusion.
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Apart from being the first of a series of miraculous escape moments (more of them than in the book), it makes me wonder about the continuity of TH and LotR. Where has Bruinen disappeared to, did the wargs have no issues crossing it when the Nazgul themselves hesitated on the riverbank? It would make much more sense to me if the Elves saved the company without the addition of the hidden tunnel, just because the orcs got too close to Rivendell. For me the hidden passageway was unnecessary.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Angharad73
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2013, 9:44am
Post #10 of 25
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That's basically what I thought - the Hidden Pass is a bit strange. It's too narrow to pass through it with a horse, it would seem, for example. And if there is such a long pass that is open at the top, why does no one see it from above? Do people sometimes fall into it and end up in Rivendell by mistake?
As for continuity with LOTR (and also perhaps regarding getting horses in there), I have come to the conclusion that - to quote Kili's immortal phrase - there is another way in. I mean, there must be, right? Maybe the ford of the Bruinen is at the other end of the valley?
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Arannir
Doriath
Apr 29 2013, 9:59am
Post #11 of 25
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... they must have crossed the Bruinen further to the South of the Bruinen Ford and their final stand against the warg-riders must have taken place somewhere in the highmoor South of Rivendell. The scenary in the movie is actually not that far from what a relatively dry highmoor would look like.
Quote from the book:
They crossed the bridge and wound slowly up the long steep paths that led out of the cloven vale of Rivendell; and they came at length to the high moor where the wind hissed through the heather. Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 29 2013, 10:02am)
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Angharad73
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2013, 10:17am
Post #12 of 25
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...more like a path that might be accessible to horses, too. In the book, the company still had their ponies with them at this point, so they needed a more easily accessible pathway.
In the movie, another question, I suppose, is where Elrond and the other Elves came from to attack the Orcs. I mean they cannot have come out at the same place the Dwarves got in, can they?
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Arannir
Doriath
Apr 29 2013, 10:20am
Post #13 of 25
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I didn't want to argue that it is the same path the Fellowship took out of the valley...
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... just, that the landscape of what should be South of Rivendell fits what we see in AUJ.
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Angharad73
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2013, 10:32am
Post #14 of 25
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I didn't think of it that way either
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Although the whole 'entrance to Rivendell' confuses me now  . (I regularly confuse myself with overthinking stuff, so that's nothing new...)
How many entrances/exits could there possibly be? One from the ford of the Bruinen, one from the rocks and the Hidden Pass (although I could understand if the Elves blocked that one after Thorin & Co. left - after all, can't have *Dwarves* just willy-nilly drop by...  ), and perhaps another one that leads out onto the high moor, but is more easily accessible for horses (so, that would be how Elrond and his Elves got out to attach the Orcs?). Maybe the entrance that the Dwarves took was just some sort of emergency entrance/exit? Ok, I'm just being silly again now.
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Arannir
Doriath
Apr 29 2013, 11:32am
Post #15 of 25
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The film team added one entrance (through the canyon), but also "deleted" one - the path to the High Pass, since the Dwarves leave through the valley back in the direction of the Ford of Bruinen and probably then turning around again, "circling" Rivendell.
And: no problem, I actually like that kind of geeky stuff ;)
(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 29 2013, 11:33am)
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Apr 29 2013, 12:51pm
Post #16 of 25
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It was indeed a much wider land from the ford to the mountains than ever you would have guessed:
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...it was not so easy as it sounds to find the Last Homely House west of the mountains. There seemed to be no trees and no valleys and no hills to break the ground in front of them, only one vast slope going slowly up and up to meet the feet of the nearest mountain, a wide land the colour of heather and crumbling rock, with patches and slashes of grass-green and moss-green showing where water might be....
...They came on unexpected valleys, narrow with steep sides, that opened suddenly at their feet, and they looked down surprised to see trees below them and running water at the bottom. There were gullies that they could almost leap over, but very deep with waterfalls in them. There were dark ravines that one could neither jump over nor climb into.
I think PJ did an amazing job to find a landscape pretty much resembling the description so closely...just a shame about the Warg/bunny sled chase!
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Arannir
Doriath
Apr 29 2013, 1:12pm
Post #17 of 25
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There is also some continuity...
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... as we see Arwen and Frodo on Asfaloth in a very similar landscape.
I actually enjoyed the chase... however, one of the only moments when also I did not feel the CGI really lived up to the regular outstanding level.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Apr 29 2013, 2:56pm
Post #18 of 25
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I cannot recall the details, but wasn't there a hidden passageway through the mountains into Gondolin?
Whether it was that or no .... I *really* like the way the passageway was done. I think that is so magical and faery-like, to have a secret, winding passage through a mountain lead into a beautiful, hidden land. It was one of my favorite moments. I like to stare at it in awe along with Bilbo and say "...Rivendell", just like he does*  .
*Yep, I really do that .
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 29 2013, 3:22pm
Post #20 of 25
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Rivendell was beseiged a couple of times, first by Sauron, then by WiKi. Both seiges lasted a number of years. The hidden pass seen in the film might not be the main entrance, but rather a small one meant for Elven forces to sally out during seiges to harass the enemy.
One wonders how Jackson could have resisted a nod to Aragorn and Gimli at the Helm's Deep sally port. Perhaps Gandalf tossing 13 Dwarves and a Hobbit off the ledge and into Rivendell proper was a bit too much even for PJ.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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There&ThereAgain
Nargothrond
Apr 29 2013, 6:50pm
Post #22 of 25
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there are more than one ways out and in!
"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien
"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Apr 29 2013, 11:33pm
Post #23 of 25
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Agreed...Like Gandalf Splitting the Rock to let the Sun Shine IN..on the Trolls...
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Seemed that,.. THAT Rock entrance opened up
...Just for the Company?
And sure an Orc fell into it..
Allowing Thorin to Know Elves
Just saved their Lives..
Cool
"The Stubborn-ness can still, Get OUR Groovey Little Guys
Into trouble
Further down the Road..
Bomby
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
May 2 2013, 9:48pm
Post #24 of 25
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But at first I didn´t get it
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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alienorchid
Menegroth
May 3 2013, 12:55pm
Post #25 of 25
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That hidden passage from The Silmarillion
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also came to me when I first watched the movie, so I liked it for that reason!
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or its safe to say there was another larger secret cave for the horses... 