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NateGate
Ossiriand
Nov 13 2014, 7:12pm
Post #1 of 31
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Regarding the deaths of Azog and Bolg...
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From the recent TV spots and many other sources of news, it would appear that Bolg and Azog will both fight and die on Ravenhill. It is pretty clear at this point that Legolas will most likely kill Bolg. As for Azog, Peter Jackson himself stated that giving the honor of killing him to anyone other than Thorin would be, "bad filmmaking". So yes, all the signs point against Dain or Beorn (no-name character in my book) getting any prize kills.
So there, all you purists can cry while I drink your tears, I'm very happy that Peter is giving these kills to characters who deserve them.  
(This post was edited by NateGate on Nov 13 2014, 7:13pm)
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Macfeast
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 7:17pm
Post #2 of 31
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That last remark hardly seems necessary.
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On-topic, I would be disappointed if this were the case. I have no objection to Legolas being in these films, but I don't want too much of him... and a climactic hero-battle is too much, if you ask me.
As for Thorin and Azog, victorious revenge strikes me as not going hand-in-hand very well with the culmination of Thorin's character-arc; Him lamenting his own choices and celebrating the good qualities of our titular Hobbit... moments after he gained a victory in battle fueled by revenge? What kind of message would that be, "food and cheer and song is good... oh, and revenge is really sweet"? Thorin's big victories is making amends with Bilbo, and reclaiming Erebor (the quest which he have spent three movies on), emphasise and celebrate those, I say, and leave Azog to someone who might better benefit from it.
Would you perhaps have a link or something to PJ's statement which you refer to? I am interested in reading it.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Nov 13 2014, 7:31pm)
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King_horse
Nevrast
Nov 13 2014, 7:20pm
Post #3 of 31
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If Thorin kills Azog who will kill him in turn ? Bolg already has a fight with Tauriel and Legolas (and possibly Kili and Beorn). Doubt he has time to finish off Thorin.
I still believe Azog will kill Thorin and Fili and then be slain by Dain whereas Bolg will gravely wound Tauriel and kill Kili. Il have a feeling that Beorn will be the one to defeat Bolg mostly because Legolas seems too obvious.
(This post was edited by King_horse on Nov 13 2014, 7:30pm)
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Drakblod
Ossiriand
Nov 13 2014, 7:26pm
Post #4 of 31
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I'd like that qutoe from Peter Jackson sourced
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Because Thorin killing Azog doesn't fit the characters, both Thorin and Dain.
like butter scraped over too much bread.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 13 2014, 7:27pm
Post #5 of 31
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I should imagine Azog fatally wounds Thorin
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Before Thorin kills him, only to find there is no victory in this.
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Name
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 7:41pm
Post #6 of 31
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I just can't see Thorin killing Azog. Thorin should go out in disgrace, only to be redeemed on his deathbed. Azog needs to dominate Thorin. It needs to be the end of AUJ, except this time no heroic save of Thorin.
So, like I've mentioned numerous times, I think Beorn is the best candidate to kill Azog. It's been established that Azog killed Beorn's family and tortured Beorn himself, so it's a perfect revenge story for him.
Plus, I really want to see an injured Thorin being carried off the battlefield by Beorn. It shows how, in the end, Beorn cares a little.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 7:43pm
Post #7 of 31
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The track title "To the Death" elicits particular thoughts and visuals for me.
I imagine that this duel will be a real knock-him-down-drag-him-out affair.
It might end with a fatally wounded Thorin mustering up enough strength
to strangle a severely debilitated Azog.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Nov 13 2014, 7:47pm)
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macfalk
Doriath
Nov 13 2014, 7:44pm
Post #8 of 31
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Why does Thorin have to go out in disgrace?
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His death charge in the book is pretty damn heroic and epic. Probably my favourite moment from the book when the dwarves charge into the battle vastly outnumbered clad in the armor they found in Smaug's lair.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Name
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 7:53pm
Post #9 of 31
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But by this point in the movie the audience will probably be somewhat anti-Thorin. I don't think Thorin deserves the pleasure of revenge. He's half mad, and has already turned against our main character, Bilbo. He needs to face the consequences of his actions, and ONLY on his deathbed be redeemed. His charge can still be epic, but his character is still dishonorable, and the audience should be ashamed of him.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 13 2014, 8:00pm
Post #10 of 31
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I think Thorin will be fatally wounded first - thus he is already on his death bed, but more to the point beyond saving.
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 8:08pm
Post #11 of 31
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Not how I'd like things to play out
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I could easily live with it, but I may not be able to stop myself from exclaiming 'aw, pooey!' in the theatre.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Nov 13 2014, 8:14pm
Post #12 of 31
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Well that's how it happened in the book
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If Thorin kills Azog who will kill him in turn ? Bolg already has a fight with Tauriel and Legolas (and possibly Kili and Beorn). Doubt he has time to finish off Thorin.
I still believe Azog will kill Thorin and Fili and then be slain by Dain whereas Bolg will gravely wound Tauriel and kill Kili. Il have a feeling that Beorn will be the one to defeat Bolg mostly because Legolas seems too obvious.
And before these trailers I assumed that would be the way it would happen in the movie. Now I'm not so sure. I think Thorin will redeem himself by both charging into battle and by his words to Bilbo. Whether he kills Azog or not is pretty irrelevant, IMO. I don't know who will kill Azog, either Dain or Beorn, but it does look like Legolas will finish off Bolg. Perhaps by fighting side by side with Thorin he will begin to change his attitude toward Dwarves, going from outright hostility to a mere dislike.
OMG, if they are all on Ravenhill then possibly Kili will die defending Tauriel, and Legolas ends up joining Fili to defend a badly wounded Thorin - oh, the HORROR!!!
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 8:20pm
Post #13 of 31
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It's all going down at Ravenhill - I like it
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OMG, if they are all on Ravenhill then possibly Kili will die defending Tauriel, and Legolas ends up joining Fili to defend a badly wounded Thorin - oh, the HORROR!!!
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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NateGate
Ossiriand
Nov 13 2014, 8:42pm
Post #14 of 31
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Despite Thorin's somewhat tragic decent into greed, he has somewhat of a point. The Mirkwood elves are no better than thieves seeking to get a piece of something they in no way merited. Thus, while Thorin is being somewhat of a tyrant, he could also be compared to a property owner merely defending what is his. There are many fans, like me, who take this point of view, and would willingly join the team of the dwarves to do battle against the men and elves. I think the fact that there was a HUGE petition going around from people who haven't read the book pleading with Peter to "not kill Thorin" proves this point.
In the end, Thorin isn't an evil villain, but he isn't a shining hero either. Therefore, he must have an end which has good and bad aspects of it. Killing Azog is the reward for the good he has done, and dying in the process is the price to pay for his evil. Having him utterly fail is, as Peter puts it, bad filmmaking. While there needs to be a realization of his own greed, the idea of revenge not being sweet, in this case, doesn't fly. Azog is a evil, murderous orc who wasn't even in the original book. Thorin MUST take him out to make the conflict complete. All this tension hasn't been built up for nothing. Thorin will die, we all know that, but I think that most fans and Peter himself that his death must be a death in success rather than a death in failure. Azog is his, and so it will be.
Regardless of what really happens, in the end, if Thorin doesn't kill Azog (Dain or Beorn does), the majority of fans and casual moviegoers will undoubtedly be disappointed, only the purists will be happy. And as the history of this trilogy shows, Peter doesn't cater to minorities, especially purists.
(This post was edited by NateGate on Nov 13 2014, 8:44pm)
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Name
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 8:49pm
Post #15 of 31
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Agree to disagree 
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 8:56pm
Post #16 of 31
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Regardless of what really happens, in the end, if Thorin doesn't kill Azog (Dain or Beorn does), the majority of fans and casual moviegoers will undoubtedly be disappointed, only the purists will be happy. And as the history of this trilogy shows, Peter doesn't cater to minorities, especially purists. Some may be pleasantly surprised and they might even cheer on PJ & Co.'s decision to take the unpredictable route (a move that I would consider as 'good filmmaking').
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Nov 13 2014, 9:06pm)
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Cillendor
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 9:23pm
Post #17 of 31
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I'm not a "purist" for the most part, but one of the things I liked about Legolas in The Lord of the Rings was his relatively humble nature. He was awesome and badass and whatnot, but he was still this random Elf not from Rivendell or Lothlórien. After reading the books, I realized that he was the son of the Elvenking. But even then, his status as the Prince of Mirkwood wasn't the emphasis of his character.
Including him in The Hobbit hasn't been bad so far (IMHO), but I don't want him to be a hero before The Lord of the Rings. It would change too much of his simple, carefree image that we get in those films. His apparent transformation from hating Dwarves to befriending Gimli has, I think, been aided with this backstory on him, but I don't want PJ & Co. to bloat his character beyond the bounds of the story.
(This post was edited by Cillendor on Nov 13 2014, 9:23pm)
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 13 2014, 9:39pm
Post #18 of 31
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I'm far from a purist, but I'll still be disappointed if that's how it plays out. It could turn out okay though if he ends up going after Azog at the expense of his nephews' lives. I could see that working pretty well as long as those pesky elves stay away.
And there's no need to lump everyone who disagrees with you into one group of "purists."
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Nov 13 2014, 9:40pm)
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Bard'sBlackArrow
Menegroth
Nov 13 2014, 9:47pm
Post #19 of 31
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Despite Thorin's somewhat tragic decent into greed, he has somewhat of a point. The Mirkwood elves are no better than thieves seeking to get a piece of something they in no way merited. Thus, while Thorin is being somewhat of a tyrant, he could also be compared to a property owner merely defending what is his. There are many fans, like me, who take this point of view, and would willingly join the team of the dwarves to do battle against the men and elves. I think the fact that there was a HUGE petition going around from people who haven't read the book pleading with Peter to "not kill Thorin" proves this point.
In the end, Thorin isn't an evil villain, but he isn't a shining hero either. Therefore, he must have an end which has good and bad aspects of it. Killing Azog is the reward for the good he has done, and dying in the process is the price to pay for his evil. Having him utterly fail is, as Peter puts it, bad filmmaking. While there needs to be a realization of his own greed, the idea of revenge not being sweet, in this case, doesn't fly. Azog is a evil, murderous orc who wasn't even in the original book. Thorin MUST take him out to make the conflict complete. All this tension hasn't been built up for nothing. Thorin will die, we all know that, but I think that most fans and Peter himself that his death must be a death in success rather than a death in failure. Azog is his, and so it will be.
Agree, I'd gladly side with the dwarves and I think Thorin's death will reflect his descent but also the hero he'd been prior to reentering Erebor. That duality would really hammer it home for me.
And I hope he kills Azog.
... on the other side of tomorrow...
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Macfeast
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 10:16pm
Post #20 of 31
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As for being deserving of a kill.
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I don't necessarily think that going by who "deserves the kill" is the best way to go. I mean, at this point, I would argue that Thorin deserves to kill Smaug, more than Bard deserves to kill Smaug; Thorin was there when Erebor fell, and he and Smaug had a few goes at each other during the finale of DOS, turning this into a personal thing between the two... and I would imagine that many other storytellers would be quick to give Thorin the kill. Meanwhile, what does Bard have? An ancestor who tried and failed to kill Smaug, and the destruction of a town that Bard has never known... nothing personal to the degree that Thorin has.
Not that I think that Thorin should kill Smaug, mind you. I think that Bard should kill Smaug, because that is what best serves the story; It sets into motion events and story-threads that further advance the story, things that wouldn't necessarily have happened had Thorin gotten the kill. Fictional characters don't always get what they deserve; It's first and foremost about what serves the story best.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Nov 13 2014, 10:20pm)
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 10:52pm
Post #21 of 31
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For 'purists' on this thread, and others of the same ilk,
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read 'Puritans' who seem to be demanding some kind of cruel, righteous vengeance upon Thorin (although I'm not sure what for). This attitude has left me open-mouthed for some weeks but I have refrained from commenting.
There is so much that is good and fine and noble about Thorin - still - which is why so many fans across the net still admire and love him and are already crying in advance of the ending. I find nothing to dislike or despise in him except for him being rather stubborn when confronted by two armies and an elven king, both of whom have come to take from him what is rightfully his by force and blackmail. He is also 'sick' which I think deserves some compassion and consideration.
And, although Tolkien never pushes his religion down his readers' throats, he is a Catholic who believes in forgiveness through repentance. And the moment that Thorin and the Company charge out through the gates of Erebor to help their fellows, he is showing repentance and is a hero from then on. His dying words are further proof that he dies a hero because his character is large and noble enough to say 'sorry'.
And that's the way that PJ and RA are playing it: he is not raging and shouting around Erebor in those clips - instead, you can see pain and anguish and indecision in his eyes as people challenge him. It's that which will gain him sympathy. The only person stamping their little foot and being immature is Kili, IMO. The only person being arrogant and greedy is Thranduil. The only person to have betrayed a friend is Bilbo. And the only person being a 2D hero is Bard. Thorin is a complex tragic hero with a lot of good and a bit of bad - because that's what tragic heroes are made of. And he's my kind of person.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 13 2014, 11:17pm
Post #22 of 31
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When you talk about the armies being there to take from Thorin what is rightfully his? If so, I think that's quite a difficult reading.
There are various arguments but the strongest is that a portion of the treasure then in Erebor was from Dale and so has never belonged to the dwarves (and it is this part that Bard asks for).
How could we say that this was rightfully Thorin's?
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 13 2014, 11:37pm
Post #23 of 31
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I don't see Bilbo's actions as an outright betrayal. He's trying to save Thorin from something that Smaug said would corrupt his heart. Should Bilbo even have believed Smaug in the first place? Maybe not. But what he does is no less of a betrayal than Thorin sticking a sword to Bilbo's chest.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Nov 13 2014, 11:38pm)
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2014, 11:38pm
Post #24 of 31
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if part of the treasure belonged to Dale, then why did they never ask for it before Smaug came? And if part of the treasure was what Smaug took from them after he came, then, since Bard and others were too frightened to take on Smaug and claim it for themselves, but shoved a party of only 13 dwarves to the fore to take on the task for them, then do they deserve to get it back?
The people of Lake Town do deserve recompense, however. I don't know how they'll play it in the film, but in the book, Thorin is willing to discuss things if the armies - especially Thranduil's - withdraw and stop demanding money through threats and menaces. But, for some stubborn reason of their own, Bard and Thranduil refuse to do this.
If you are a leader and a king it is sometimes important that you stand firm when threatened by the opposition. Just about all the dwarves in the book support Thorin's actions. If only Bard had been reasonable about the armies, I'm sure that Thorin would have bargained with him and recompensed him and Lake Town.
BTW, as an aside, Bard's not-so-noble purpose in screwing money out of the dwarves is not just to get enough to rebuild Lake Town but to acquire enough gold personally so that he can set himself up as lord of Girion once more. There is personal aggrandisement involved here.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 13 2014, 11:51pm
Post #25 of 31
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It was what was taken by Smaug.
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And, if we are sticking in the text, the dwarves didn't "take on" Smaug at all. They sent in Bilbo, hid, and simply enraged the dragon into burning Laketown and forcing Bard to kill him. I'm not sure one can say much to suggest the Dale portion of the treasure should rightfully now be Thorin's, based on that.
As far as who is in the right in the negotiations, it is worth remembering that the issue of the armed forces is belied in several ways - the narrator believes Bard's claims to be just, Bilbo believes them to be just and we are further instructed to blame the power of the gold upon which the dragon has brooded.
One can always choose one's own reading but it is probably one that, as far as the reader is supposed to think anything, the reader isn't supposed to think that!
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