|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lio
Menegroth
May 10 2015, 7:01pm
Post #1 of 22
(10990 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why did Thorin tell Fili that someday Fili would be king?
|
Can't Post
|
|
It seems to imply that even if he became the king, Thorin would never have children of his own?
But why would this be the case? Maybe he didn't want to get married, or was he too old to have children?
Or would Fili have been next in line to the throne even if Thorin did have an heir? This doesn't seem likely though.
Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin
Orcs are mammals!
"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser! (Does anyone still use AIM?)
|
|
|
marary
Menegroth
May 10 2015, 7:15pm
Post #2 of 22
(10916 views)
Shortcut
|
I think this has a lot to do with social norms, male responsibility, and marriage particular to dwarf society.
The male dwarves outnumber the women dwarves about 2:1, so few males actually marry and have children. Thorin not marrying and having children is not at all strange for a dwarf. It may be strange for a member of the royal family, but as he lived in exile and spent many of his prime years in Ered Luin (where women-folk were rare), Thorin not marrying up to this point is understandable.
Fili and Kili, as children of Dis (Thorin's sister), are still in the direct bloodline of Durin, the royal line.
As Fili and Kili's father is dead, Thorin took guardianship over his nephews, acting very much in place of their father.
I *suspect* that as women are so rare, dwarven men-folk tend to share fatherly responsibilities over children in their extended family. So a nephew to Thorin (a dwarf) might seem more akin to a father-son connection than it would to the men of Middle Earth..
Although the Thorin-Fili-Kili thing is pretty similar to Theoden-Eowyn-Eomer (although Theoden had a more direct heir at the beginning of the story).
|
|
|
DisDwarfWoman
Ossiriand
May 10 2015, 8:28pm
Post #3 of 22
(10859 views)
Shortcut
|
Maybe he didn't want to get married, or was he too old to have children?
It seems likely that he would have wanted to get married (or felt he should/had to) because he was going to be king. There was a great bit in the appendices about dwarf women and getting married (paraphrased) "and some want [one] they cannot have, and so will marry no one". So maybe that's what happened with Thorin, as I could see dwarf men being the same way.
As for kids, maybe it's like for humans, he's not "technically" too old to have kids, meaning its possible, but at the same time it's not advisable. I mean people have kids in their 40s/50s now, even older sometimes, but its usually tricky and sometimes causes problems for the kids' health. There's also the problem of most dwarves only living to 250 (ish), and he's 195 in the book, so he would be likely to die when his kids were really young (for dwarves). So it seems likely that he could just be okay with Fili/Kili being his heirs for those reasons.
|
|
|
mirkwoodwanderer
Menegroth
May 10 2015, 9:38pm
Post #4 of 22
(10807 views)
Shortcut
|
It seems to imply that even if he became the king, Thorin would never have children of his own?
But why would this be the case? Maybe he didn't want to get married, or was he too old to have children?
Or would Fili have been next in line to the throne even if Thorin did have an heir? This doesn't seem likely though.
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
May 11 2015, 7:11pm
Post #5 of 22
(10580 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Book Thorin was probably too old
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Movie Thorin is about 30 years younger, so he could probably have kids IF he were married. As far as I can tell, only Gloin is married. And that brings up another question about the whole Dwarven society, mainly that with a 2:1 ratio of men to women you'd think HALF of the men and ALL of the women would be married. Otherwise, how could they have a sustainable population? Now, of course it makes sense to me that a company of Dwarves that are going on a year-long (or longer) quest would be mostly made up of single men, so I'm not sure this company is a good reflection of Dwarven society. And it would make sense to me that the King would be married, UNLESS he had a love and she was lost to him somehow, either through death or her choosing another. This was something that Richard Armitage alluded to in an interview, that he thought Thorin's great love may have died when Smaug attacked Erebor, although that's unlikely since movie Thorin was about 24 at the time, MUCH too young by Dwarven standards .
But you know, when it comes to Dwarf women not marrying at all if they can't have the one they want, well...
it's probably the Durins' fault! 
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
marary
Menegroth
May 11 2015, 7:52pm
Post #6 of 22
(10566 views)
Shortcut
|
Dwarf women have to have at least 3 children apeice to sustain the population. 
It's canon that women-folk were rare in Ered Luin. The info about the gender ratio comes from Gimli, so I wonder if this is more about the gender ratio particular to Ered Luin (where he was born and grew up), or actually about the dwarf race as a whole.
Supposedly, it's pretty normal for dwarf men to "not desire marriage". Which is probably a necessity to stay sane in a society with so few women. Thorin may have simply not desired marriage, and as his sister, also in the line or Durin, had children, he wasn't really under an obligation to produce offspring.
Personally, I really like the idea of dwarves considering nephews (sister-sons in particular) as good as sons. Thorin certainly seems to treat Fili and Kili as his own children.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 11 2015, 7:57pm
Post #7 of 22
(10553 views)
Shortcut
|
One would think that the ratio of women to men in Dwarf society would have spiked by the end of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs to an all-time high. There were so many Dwarves slain at the Battle of Azanulbizar alone that , for a while, there might have been as much as two Dwarf-women for every male.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
marary
Menegroth
May 11 2015, 8:00pm
Post #8 of 22
(10549 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Good point! But where did the women go?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Following the Battle of Azanulbisursuserueure (sorry, spelling got away from me there), Thorin and Thrain (book-verse) went to establish a the colony of Durin's Folk in the Blue Mountains, where they increased slowly due to a lack of women. Source: ROTK Appendices.
So there may have been many women, but they did not also travel to Ered Luin?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 11 2015, 8:35pm
Post #9 of 22
(10528 views)
Shortcut
|
Following the Battle of Azanulbisursuserueure (sorry, spelling got away from me there), Thorin and Thrain (book-verse) went to establish a the colony of Durin's Folk in the Blue Mountains, where they increased slowly due to a lack of women. Source: ROTK Appendices.
So there may have been many women, but they did not also travel to Ered Luin?
Maybe the lack was of marriageable women. Widows would have tended to not remarry. Those intent on males who were slain in battle would have tended to have not wed. There seems to have been no great societal pressure to reverse the accepted norms as one might expect in a human population under similar circumstances.
It might also be that when Smaug invaded Erebor he might have taken special pleasure in hunting down dwarven women and children.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
May 11 2015, 9:00pm
Post #10 of 22
(10516 views)
Shortcut
|
In fact that was the basis of a fanfic I wrote, which you of course are well aware of. Generally, after a battle you do have a higher population of women, due to so many men being killed. I don't know, you yourself explained to me that much of the history hadn't been thought out when Tolkien wrote "The Hobbit," which I suppose established some history that he couldn't go back and correct. From what I read in The Appendices, it was mostly an explanation of things he'd already written.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
May 11 2015, 9:07pm
Post #11 of 22
(10511 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There was another thread recently
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
about why they didn't go to the Iron Hills, which was much closer. My guess is that alot of women probably did go to the Iron Hills for that very reason. You certainly wouldn't have seen women hanging around the battlefield of Anza-whatever/Moria, so yeah probably the Iron Hills. Pretty sure Dain is married, at least.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
marary
Menegroth
May 11 2015, 9:21pm
Post #12 of 22
(10505 views)
Shortcut
|
Really wish Tolkien had written a bit more about dwarf women, marriages, etc.
Anza-whatever
You said it, buddy. 
Didn't Dain actually have a son also named Thorin? I remember he had at least one son, so yes, he must have been married.
The best extrapolation of dwarf women, gender roles and marriage customs has been done by Terry Pratchett in the Discworld novels; he magnificently riffed on the fantasy race Tolkien established. I'm not saying Pratchett's interpretation is quite what Tolkien had in mind, but it all sort of fits.
I like to think that in Middle Earth, there are some dwarf colonies/kingdoms where the women might prefer to look, well, a little more conventionally feminine than others.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe, Gimli was lying about the gender ratio and the dwarven race is simply bursting at the seams with women. Hey, dwarves are protective and secretive.
Maybe Thorin was really a dwarf woman. (Silly headcanon I'll enjoy for one silly day.)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 11 2015, 10:02pm
Post #13 of 22
(10489 views)
Shortcut
|
Didn't Dain actually have a son also named Thorin? I remember he had at least one son, so yes, he must have been married.
Yes, Dain must have had a queen and she might have lived at least long enough to relocate to Erebor. They did have a son named Thorin (III) Stonehelm who was born in TA 2866. He became King under the Mountain in 3019 (in Tolkien's legendarium) after Dain died in the War of the North. Thorin and Bard II routed the Easterlings who had besieged Erebor.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 11 2015, 10:03pm)
|
|
|
Ilmatar
Nargothrond
May 12 2015, 7:20am
Post #14 of 22
(10425 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thoughts from the Dwarrow Scholar
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Dwarrow Scholar has an article concerning gender ratios and the number of children - here is a brief quote of those speculations.
About dwarven women and children
only 1 out of 3 dwarves would have children and they feel no pressure to have more than 1 child. As we can see from Tolkiens writings that less then half of those that had children, had more then one (Thrain II and Dáin I were rare exceptions with 3 children). Though it must be said that this is likely something typical of the third age, or the Royal House of Durin, as otherwise the dwarves as a race could not have possibly existed passed the first age. The early Dwarves would have had 6 children on average (to account for the numbers we see in later stories).
|
|
|
Bombadil
Gondolin
May 12 2015, 9:53am
Post #15 of 22
(10394 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, Bombur was a Father..What? 13 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
dormouse
Gondolin
May 12 2015, 10:29am
Post #16 of 22
(10402 views)
Shortcut
|
That Thorin is being realistic. He lives in a dangerous world - and when he says this to Fili he's on his way to a mountain with a very large dragon inside it. Fili is the heir and Thorin wants him to understand the burden and the responsibilities that go with that - it's part of his training. Then there's the personal angle. Leaving Kili behind in that state can't be easy for Thorin - he probably feels torn about it and wants Fili to understand that he really has to do it - he's looking for a bit of emotional support.
Even if Thorin had thought of marriage and children, at that moment the prospect would be irrelevant. How many years would it all take? Thorin might be facing a live dragon tomorrow and Fili is an adult and strong enough to take over.
|
|
|
Bombadil
Gondolin
May 12 2015, 11:17am
Post #17 of 22
(10388 views)
Shortcut
|
|
AT the Time...No ONE knew what
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
they would find inside the Mountain?
Smaug hadn't been seen for 60 years..
SSOoo..he could just be... DEAD.
Sending Bilbo inside alone?
BALIN: "IF...There IS indeed, a live Dragon? Don't waken it.."
ALSO, what might been goin' through Thorin's Mind was
he knew this was a Fool's Hope, {Without Gandalf}
& NEVER would have Thought..
Smaug would ATTACK Laketown,
So he might think, by leaving them, he was
Saving his Heirs to RULE after his OWN DEATH.
Pretty Complex but
Played wonderfully by each charACTOR..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 12 2015, 11:31am)
|
|
|
Elarie
Hithlum
May 12 2015, 11:35am
Post #18 of 22
(10384 views)
Shortcut
|
|
How would Fili have reacted if Thorin had a son?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
One of the questions that I have sort of casually wondered about now and then is how Fili would have reacted if Thorin had survived, married and had a son who would be his heir. Fili had been raised to be next in line to the throne and to be unexpectedly replaced would have been quite a big adjustment for him. History is full of stories of family members fighting each other for thrones and although I can't picture Fili as a murderer, I also can't imagine that there wouldn't have been some natural bitterness and resentment, which he would probably try to cover up since he's a nice guy. After all, it's very easy to take something for granted until someone takes it away from you.
If the story had played out that way, maybe it would have been Fili who had gone to Moria and tried to reclaim a kingdom there, rather than play second fiddle to his new cousin.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
|
|
|
Bombadil
Gondolin
May 12 2015, 11:38am
Post #19 of 22
(10381 views)
Shortcut
|
|
When Gandalf does INDEED show up?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He uses his "GANDALF AWESOME VOICE"
Almost hypnotising the 13
into letting Bilbo go.
THAT voice have have Turned the OTHER 12 into
"SIDE-ing with Bilbo"
Allowing him to climb down.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
CathrineB
Nargothrond
May 12 2015, 11:49am
Post #20 of 22
(10385 views)
Shortcut
|
I have been thinking of that too actually! What if Thorin did have a son! I mean I can't imagine Fili not being bitter over that, even if just a little. He's a nice guy, but that's something they have probably spent huge parts of his life to prepare for only for it to be ripped away. Jeiks.
|
|
|
Elarie
Hithlum
May 12 2015, 12:55pm
Post #21 of 22
(10366 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps Balin had similar issues for going to Moria
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Being a friend and counselor to Thorin, who was king of the Longbeards by virtue of being the oldest son of the oldest son etc. all the way back to the first Durin, is one thing. But with the death of Thorin, Fili and Kili, the only thing between Balin and the throne was Dain and Dain's son. Dain and Balin were both descendants of the first Durin, but from different Royal younger brothers along the way, with Dain being one step closer to the throne. It might have been hard for Balin to give fealty to a cousin who was not much more "royal" than himself and who was already an experienced ruler who didn't need another counselor. I can imagine poor Balin living in Erebor with really not much to do while Dain and his longtime friends and counselors from the Iron Hills ran things in their own way. And perhaps Dain wasn't that anxious to have Balin around, either - "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown" and so on.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
|
|
|
Ilmatar
Nargothrond
May 12 2015, 12:59pm
Post #22 of 22
(10369 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Taking sides... and heirs apparent/presumptive
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think the 12 were already on Bilbo's side, at first surprised at his confession but still ignoring Thorin's order to throw him down and even trying to prevent Thorin from doing so. They must have been shocked at how violent and impulsive Thorin (in his madness) could be when betrayed, and were mostly relieved (even if conflicted) when Gandalf appeared right on time to save Bilbo.
This is just how I see it  that the "Gandalf Awesome Voice" was mostly meant to get Thorin's attention and stop him from acting in a fit of rage so that Bilbo could take the chance and escape (with some encouragement from Bofur).
It would certainly have made some interesting royal dwarf drama if Thorin had survived to marry and have an heir! Because dwarves take so long to mature into adulthood, it's possible that Fili would have ascended the throne after Thorin, and then been succeeded by Thorin's son as he came of age.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on May 12 2015, 1:05pm)
|
|
|
|
|
