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xxxyyy
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2014, 1:51am
Post #1 of 33
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Why Thrain was brought to Dol Guldur and tortured?
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What did Sauron want to know from him?
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 3:09am
Post #2 of 33
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I think he wanted his ring and to punish him because thats what bad guys do.
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 8:32am
Post #3 of 33
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If Azog removed Thrain's ring, why even leave him alive, let alone bring him to Dol Guldur? The probable answer is that he wanted to inflict a lifetime of torture on Thrain, especially after losing his lower arm (but this hadn't happened yet it must be said)
I'd like to have seen a longer flashback, where, after the wounded Azog is brought back into Moria and the Dwarves rally, Thrain musters his strength and charges towards the gate, where he his stopped by Dain, who reveals the bit about Durin's Bane (they could probably do without this, but it would be great to see). He ignores the warning and charges in, only to be overwhelmed by Azog's Orcs and captured. It is then revealed that they took Thrain captive, torturing him for fun, eventually bringing him to Dol Guldur where he has now remained for so and so years. It would be a great visual to see Thrain charging down the stairs the company ran up in FOTR, screaming 'Azog!', and charging over the Bridge of Khazad Dum, knocking off Orcs along the way until he is overwhelmed on the other side.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 8:40am
Post #4 of 33
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That this was Sauron seeking to extract information from Thrain, but he also seems to generally like torturing things. Gollum gets a similar treatment in Mordor.
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 8:56am
Post #5 of 33
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This would suggest that Azog was in league with Dol Guldur even while he 'ruled' Moria? I suppose it's very plausible in film canon.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 9:02am
Post #6 of 33
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It's very plausible in the texts too
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There are lots of suggestions which make this a reasonable interpretation.
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 25 2014, 10:52am
Post #7 of 33
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I'm not sure he was kept and tortured...
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The book explains that Thrain went mad, not through torture but simply because the ring of power was taken from him. When one is unwillingly parted from a ring it breaks their mind. We also know that Thrain was going mad from "dragon sickness" and that the ring had negative effects on its bearers mind.
Possibly, Azog removed the ring and took it to Dol Guldur. Then Thrain, wanting the ring back, followed - Much like Gollum and the One Ring and just lingered there in madness remembering nothing but his desire for the dwarven ring.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Oct 25 2014, 10:54am)
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 10:59am
Post #8 of 33
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Well, the book also says he was tortured.
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So it might be hard to separate that out as not being related to his ultimate condition.
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 25 2014, 11:04am
Post #9 of 33
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But the film there's no mention of it...
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If he was tortured, I'd imagine it was to get his ring and to get information about the key & map so that Sauron can get to Smaug - and possibly the treasure.
Also, maybe in the film he wanted the Arkenstone to stop the dwarf families from uniting.
But again, there's no reason in the film to assume that any torturing took place without the addition of book lore.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Oct 25 2014, 11:05am)
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 11:07am
Post #10 of 33
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It would have been great to see this to have it established clearly. The passage about Thrain's wanderings is one of the more vivid in the book.
It might have made even more sense if, after removing the ring from his finger, Azog suddenly spots Thorin and decides to leave Thrain, hence explaining why he doesn't finish him off.
I'd like to say we might see more of Thrain in BOTFA:EE but I very much doubt it. Now he's dead I'd say his arc is wrapped up (though the ring obviously remains important)
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 25 2014, 11:11am
Post #11 of 33
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Not very likely, but someone mentioned the idea that Thrain isn't dead and is being held to be taken to BofA as a "trophy" - or maybe just his head will.
Thorin has to find out about his father somehow, Gandalf might tell him or he may find out another way.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 11:14am
Post #12 of 33
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In response to Gandalf's question, "What have they done to you?" "I never told them. They tried to make me but I never said a word"
I suppose we could come up with some alternative way they tried to get him to talk but torture seems perhaps the most obvious inference.
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 25 2014, 11:17am
Post #13 of 33
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I haven't got the EE, and only seen the scene once. But yeah that sounds like he was tortured haha. But the reasons I gave I think are relevant. 
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2014, 11:28am
Post #14 of 33
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The location of the map and the key //
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 1:04pm
Post #15 of 33
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I really rather like the scene so I happened to remember it. I thought the idea of Thrain being trapped by the illusion was a nice idea from a narrative, thematic and visual viewpoint, so it stuck in my mind.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 4:37pm
Post #16 of 33
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Why does Sauron need the map and the key if he... (DOS EE SPOILER)
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is already in league with the dragon? Why would Sauron want to open this tiny little door? And I'm not pretty sure either if Sauron would have been able to read that map. I imagine that Elrond, Galadriel perhaps Saruman or Thranduil would have been able to read that but Sauron?
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 4:38pm
Post #17 of 33
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Wasn't book-Azog sent to Moria by Sauron to populate it?
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"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 25 2014, 4:47pm
Post #18 of 33
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... there are two options I would have in my mind which make sense to me.
1.) As a bait to lure Thorin into Dol Guldur... perhaps he would have come there if he didn't met Gandalf in Bree an concentrate on Erebor. He was looking for Thrain. He has heard rumors that Thrain was seen in Bree and in Dunland. What if he went there and learned about "rumors" of Thrain being seen in the southern parts of Mirkwood? Thorin would have gone there... I'm sure.
2.) As a watchdog for uninvited guests like Gandalf. If you're operating secretly why sending Orcs or Wargs if you can send a mad Dwarf to attack intruders? Who would have guessed that Sauron himself was behind that? I think in the DOS EE it's obvious that Thrain is held as some kind of animal until Gandalf releases him.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 7:00pm
Post #19 of 33
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...book-Azog was among the Orcs sent to Moria by Sauron, or at least was descended from them. I'm not sure if I'm mis-remembering here, but I always thought that the Orcs were sent to Moria as an attempt by Sauron to gain the allegiance of Durin's Bane. I could be wrong about that though (too lazy to check up on it right now).
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 7:26pm
Post #20 of 33
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I'm not sure I recall that but there were indications
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That the Moria orcs were there under instructions from Sauron to block the passage across the misty mountains.
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xxxyyy
Nargothrond
Oct 25 2014, 10:25pm
Post #21 of 33
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I think Sauron doesn't want Thorin to enter the mountain and reunite the dwarves lord?
There's infact a reward on Thorin's head.
Thrain wanted Thorin, before Azanulbizar, to reclaim Erebor, but after realizing that Smaug is in league with Sauron, he doesn't want anymore.
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PredatoR
Nevrast
Oct 25 2014, 10:47pm
Post #22 of 33
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Hope BOTFA, we will see finally how Gandalf got the key and the map! And some torture scenes wouldnt be bad for EE.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2014, 10:54pm
Post #23 of 33
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Thrain visited Gandalf and have them to him for safe keeping before the attempt to retake Moria. What else of import is there to know?
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
Oct 26 2014, 1:50am
Post #24 of 33
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It was implied that Azog was in league with Sauron because he had a choice in the matter. The Orcs and Goblins have always been subserviant to Sauron. Now I don't think you can tie it together like this in the books, but in the movie Azog isn't really the one in charge of Moria either, the Balrog is. The Balrog is also subserviant to sauron as well.
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
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Aitieuriskon
Menegroth
Oct 26 2014, 2:31am
Post #25 of 33
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is why I wish that some oblique reference had been made to the Balrog during the Azanulbizar flashback. It could have been as simple as Thorin peering into the gloom of the Dimrill Gate post-battle in search of his father and hearing a thoroughly ominous rumbling from demon within.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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