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DainPig
Mithlond
Dec 15 2016, 9:38pm
Post #1 of 29
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"We've lost the light"
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What do you think about this particular scene (the dwarves giving up)?
Does it make sense? Is it sad for you?
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OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Dec 15 2016, 10:07pm
Post #2 of 29
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I personally had nothing against this scene.
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It wasn't in the book, but I was generally shocked when Bilbo's foot knocked the key nearly off the ledge!
It makes sense to me because they have lost the light literally and figuratively. We all know literally because the sun had set, but figuratively I think is because they had lost hope, so that little bit of hopeful light they had, had died.
Honestly, I never think about what my emotional feelings are for this scene. Yes, it is sad because they have lost hope, but me as a viewer, knows that their "hope is kindled."
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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DainPig
Mithlond
Dec 15 2016, 10:32pm
Post #3 of 29
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They say that the company would never give up so easily.
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OldestDaughter
Nargothrond
Dec 15 2016, 10:36pm
Post #4 of 29
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It was quite a drastic change from the book.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Dec 15 2016, 11:45pm
Post #5 of 29
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...it didn't make a whole lot of sense, particularly because they had travelled so far and sacrificed everything to get there, why would they turn back so quickly?
They didn't even know if Smaug was still alive or not. At that point, sending Bilbo in through the front door would have been plan B, if I were in Thorin.
The poor planning of this scene was quickly forgotten when the dwarves re-enter Erebor. Thorin's sense of awe and Balin's tears were priceless.
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Noria
Hithlum
Dec 16 2016, 12:48pm
Post #6 of 29
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I too had nothing against that scene
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I think it was designed to up the tension and to give Bilbo an active role, whereas he was an entirely passive onlooker in the book. It seems that some people feel that Bilbo was sidelined in these movies but here he gets the spotlight. I liked Bilbo kicking the key and Thorin catching it under his foot at the last second,especially the expressions on their faces.
For me it was often enjoyable when the LotR and Hobbit movies surprised me so I enjoyed the twist of having the Dwarves give up and leave. But as a book reader I never doubted for a moment that the door would be opened. I loved that wonderful scene of the exiles, Thorin and Balin, entering Erebor.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Dec 16 2016, 4:26pm
Post #7 of 29
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I don't think it was a bad scene
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I think it captured a sense of defeat - this was their ONE CHANCE, and somehow they missed it. The Dwarves believed this was the only way to get into Erebor, and the look on Thorin's face when he believed he'd failed; well I can't say enough about Richard's acting. But I also agree with the post above that the scene was meant to highlight Bilbo - only Bilbo was willing to stay and try to figure things out! And the scene with the key was very well timed, I LOVE IT!!!
I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!
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Avandel
Gondolin
Dec 16 2016, 8:34pm
Post #8 of 29
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IMO even by DOS Peter Jackson was using a bit of tight editing, they could have kept the scene except give it more room to breath - Balin spending just a few more seconds persuading Thorin to leave, saying they can't stay there, they'll thing of something, etc.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 16 2016, 10:31pm
Post #9 of 29
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Many people hated this scene They say that the company would never give up so easily.
Keep in mind that the Dwarves had already spent effort on trying to break through the door by main force and found it impossible to do so. If they couldn't find the keyhole then they were out of options.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Dec 17 2016, 9:20pm
Post #10 of 29
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not rational action or steps they can take. The complaint is that we didn't see the full range of emotions that one (or 13) would face in the moment; they simply leave.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Dec 18 2016, 9:36am
Post #11 of 29
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No idea who 'many people', but I think it works very well.....
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.. it gives a creative twist to the 'last light of Durin's Day', to shake the complacency of anyone who is thinking they know exactly what's going to happen
.. it gives Bilbo a chance to take the lead
.. it makes room for an little extra book detail - the thrush knocking
.. it raises the emotional stakes for all the dwarves, particularly Thorin, and adds weight to the moment when he and Balin enter the Mountain
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Dec 19 2016, 1:36am
Post #12 of 29
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It also throws another wrench in the works
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Of the philosophy that Bilbo is sidelined throughout the trilogy and hardly contributes to the plot.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 19 2016, 4:18am
Post #13 of 29
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The front gate was deemed too dangerous....
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One major problem of the book and the movie is that the Dwarves had no real plan for dealing with Smaug. Burglary was the plan with the primary purpose of treasure retrieval and hopefully the finding of the Arkenstone (which would give Thorin Kingship and more influence with other dwarven kingdoms (I assume some future assault on Smaug would have been planned but how they would have thought to prevail is beyond me. In the movie the ad hoc attempt to kill Smaug was really the only feasible way given the uselessness of weapons against him. To come in the Front Door would have risked too much. If Smaug were still alive, there would be no retreat. It appears they believed Smaug was alive and kicking and not dead.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 19 2016, 4:20am)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 19 2016, 1:35pm
Post #14 of 29
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As you say, the Front Gate was not even feasible in the film as Smaug had blocked it with a huge pile of rubble which could not possibly be moved without alerting the dragon (if he proved to be alive). We can guess that any shafts dug to provide light or ventilation were constructed in such a way so that they would not provide easy entry either (perhaps being too narrow and/or bent for dwarves, goblins or hobbits to utilize).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 19 2016, 1:36pm)
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Dec 19 2016, 9:54pm
Post #15 of 29
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If the secret door is blocked, you have to go with plan B...
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...especially if you have Bilbo Baggins. Remember, whether they know about the Ring or not, they witnessed Bilbo pull off not one, but two nearly impossible feats of stealth. He single handedly navigated and escaped the goblin caves, eluding thousands of bloodthirsty enemies. Then he tops this by sneaking into an impregnable Elven stronghold and liberating the Company. Why wouldn't you test his abilities against a dragon that may or may not even be there? For Thorin, this is it. Consider his difficulties in reaching the Lonely Mountain. This is his only chance to get the Arkenstone and reclaim the Kingdom. I believe he would sacrifice Bilbo to this mission without hesitation. At the very least he would consider it, asking Bilbo if he would go and scout it out...which Bilbo most certainly would.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 20 2016, 12:22am
Post #16 of 29
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Well, we don't know if they would have as they were leaving
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the secret door way and going down the path. It is possible that they would IF the doorway was open. In the movie it wasn't. In the book it still was.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 20 2016, 1:19am
Post #17 of 29
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The point is that there was no Plan B. The Secret Door was, in the film, the only way into the Mountain. The Front Gate was blocked and there were not other points of access.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Dec 20 2016, 10:23am
Post #18 of 29
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I would ask, 'what doesn't end up being plan B?'...
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In Tolkien's world, as in ours, things often don't go as planned. Heroes persevere, they adapt, they never give up. The enemy is not defeated by brute power, but by courage and ingenuity. The 'secret way' was the optimal way, but I find it quite unlikely to be the only way. You would at least explore and check things out...well, I would at least. Fortunately, the door was opened, and the rest is history.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 20 2016, 6:31pm
Post #19 of 29
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In the movie, one Plan B would be to wait another year and search for the door.
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Would they all return after their long journey to their homes or possibly go to Dain and sponge off him...or stay in Lake Town and engage in toy making, smithing etc.?
Bilbo would be in a jam....unless Gandalf escorted him home.
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Belegdir
Menegroth
Dec 20 2016, 6:41pm
Post #20 of 29
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The film made things more urgent.
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The orcs were hot to get hold of them so any plan B would have to happen then and there. They couldn't wait a year for another chance unless they were able to defeat the orcs first.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 20 2016, 8:48pm
Post #21 of 29
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In the movie, one Plan B would be to wait another year and search for the door.
Would they all return after their long journey to their homes or possibly go to Dain and sponge off him...or stay in Lake Town and engage in toy making, smithing etc.?
Bilbo would be in a jam....unless Gandalf escorted him home.
However, the conceit was that the Dwarves could not know if a Durin's Day would occur in any given year. On the other hand, it should have been simple enough to calculate when the last new moon of autumn would fall, so they would at least be aware of the approximate potential date (one of the flaws that Tolkien overlooked in the book). And of course the launching of Sauron's campaign in the films would have made any such plan moot (though Thorin and the others could not have known this).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 20 2016, 8:50pm)
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 20 2016, 9:24pm
Post #22 of 29
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Ah, but would Sauron have launched had Smaug not been killed?
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Smaug was a bit of an independent force and I doubt Smaug would have allowed the area to be inhabited by orcs. What would have been the purpose of the move by Sauron - setting aside Azog's ambition (or in the book the Goblin King's revenge) for any movement as he already had Gundabad. He would not have launched just to take out Lake Town. An attack on Dain? Thranduil? It seems that a live Smaug would have ruined the plans or caused a change in them.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 21 2016, 12:49am
Post #23 of 29
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Smaug was originally part of Sauron's plan, especially as explained in the film series. As best as I can work out, a unit of Azog's Orcs would have probably been garrisoned at Erebor to guard the dragon's hoard. I doubt that the dragon would leave it unguarded.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Elarie
Hithlum
Dec 21 2016, 2:25am
Post #24 of 29
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I think it worked in movie terms
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I think it's one of those scenes that would have felt slightly anti-climatic on the screen if the book had been followed exactly. Having the dwarves just stand there until the sun set and then popping the key into the door and opening it wouldn't have felt very exciting. And giving the actors a chance to show that feeling of devasting disappointment really added a lot of emotion to the scene.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
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Isilmo
Lindon
Jan 16 2017, 1:27pm
Post #25 of 29
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As someone who has not read the books
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but I do plan on buying them with my tax return  ,I thought it was great. Showed how sad Thorin and the rest were at not finding the door. And it gave Bilbo a chance to shine by figuring out the true meaning of the hidden text. Well he didn't really figure it out but it was still a nice Bilbo moment. Then when the key almost fell,I was on the edge of my seat!
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